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Just Accidental?

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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
How much more complex than all of these things would some Creator god be?

We can no more testify to that with any certainty, than you can testify to the mode of evolution you promote. You "suggest" how life evolved....we "suggest" how life was created. One requires random chance and no intelligent direction whatsoever....the other requires intelligent design that clearly demonstrates purpose. I know which one appeals to my logic when you understand that "magic" doesn't describe the process in any way. Humans have no idea what powers exist in the universe that remain to be discovered. We are ants compared to a power who can create and organize matter and then give it "life". Can you define "life"?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I know we've had this conversation before, but the argument that God is the designer of life would seem to run into at least some questions around how good a designer he is, or how benevolent he is, based on the nature of some of the creatures he apparently designed.

I can see many things that are clearly NOT what we would call optimum in the world at present, both in human behavior and in other life forms.....but I also believe that a very powerful entity who is an adversary of the Creator has sway over the present circumstances we see in human life and in the natural world in general. Many things seem to fly in the face of a loving Creator.

Taking into consideration the way the Bible describes creation, we see that all creatures were vegetarians to begin with. The fact that no creature was carnivorous tells me that the Creator originally intended that no creature was to harm another. With the giving over of earth's rulership to his adversary (done in order to allow him to prove his case, that he was the better choice as mankind's advisor and deity) it stands to reason that things would not be as God originally intended. He has allowed this adversary relatively free reign and who knows what impact that has had on the natural world? We are told how it affected humankind, but little about how it affected nature.

I believe that a clue is given that reveals how it will become once God's rulership is re-established on this earth.

Through his prophet Isaiah God said.....(and I understand that this may not make any impact on an unbeliever, but for the benefit of those who are......)

Isaiah 65:17-25:
"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.

18 So exult and be joyful forever in what I am creating.
For look! I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joy
And her people a cause for exultation.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem and exult in my people;

No more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or a cry of distress.”
20 “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days,
Nor an old man who fails to live out his days.
For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy,

And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.
21 They will build houses and live in them,

And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.
22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
Nor will they plant for others to eat.

For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.
23 They will not toil for nothing,

Nor will they bear children for distress,
Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah,
And their descendants with them.
24 Even before they call out, I will answer;

While they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,

The lion will eat straw just like the bull,
And the serpent’s food will be dust.
They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah."


This is the life that any 'normal' person longs for...it resonates in the heart because this is the life we were meant to live...not this poor excuse for a life that we have now, dictated by God's adversary.

The fact that NO creature will do harm to another testifies to me that many things we see now, will no longer be the case in that "new earth" (not a new planet, but a new system of governance that will eliminate all rebels, returning the earth and all things on it to the way it was originally.) Without hope of things ever getting better, how can anyone say that they enjoy living in the world the way it is? Even if there is relative peace in our own household (and this is becoming rarer) the majority of humans on this planet are experiencing anything but ideal living conditions. What workable solutions is man offering them? What can they realistically do without causing more damage and carnage?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Taking into consideration the way the Bible describes creation, we see that all creatures were vegetarians to begin with. The fact that no creature was carnivorous tells me that the Creator originally intended that no creature was to harm another.
Denying there were ever dinosaurs that ate meat.

With the giving over of earth's rulership to his adversary (done in order to allow him to prove his case, that he was the better choice as mankind's advisor and deity) it stands to reason that things would not be as God originally intended. He has allowed this adversary relatively free reign and who knows what impact that has had on the natural world? We are told how it affected humankind, but little about how it affected nature.
Are you saying God gave Earth's rule to Satan? What about these? Psalms 115:16 Psalms 8:6 Isaiah 45:18 Jeremiah 27:5

@Deeje are you perhaps trolling God?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Denying there were ever dinosaurs that ate meat.

Where does the Bible mention dinosaurs? What transpired before the creation of man can only be supposed. Who said dinosaurs were carnivores? Who was around to observe them? It is said that those who are presently carnivorous will be that way no longer.....do you doubt that this is true? Do you know that zoos fed their lions straw during war time when no meat was available for them?

The largest and strongest creatures on earth are all vegetarians.

Are you saying God gave Earth's rule to Satan?

No, the Bible did. (Luke 4:5-7)

What about these? Psalms 115:16 Psalms 8:6 Isaiah 45:18 Jeremiah 27:5

What about them? You demonstrate complete ignorance of their meaning....not surprising.

are you perhaps trolling God?
No you are trolling me....please move on.
swear1.gif
Aren't you sick of feeding your negativity?
 

Olinda

Member
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you saying that we must deny the existence of atoms because we can't see them? What does science "know" as opposed to "suggest" about atoms?

Today no one questions the idea that things we can never see do exist.” (Excerpt 2000 Awake!)
Look at that! Not one "suggestion" to be seen. :)

"In the physical world, precise timing can be seen on a microscopic as well as on a macroscopic scale. Atoms vibrate at consistent rates. International time-standard clocks regulated by atomic vibrations are accurate to 1 second in 80 million years."

Atoms are amazing!

Or those who think "natural selection" is the blanket answer to all the impossible questions. If it's good enough for you, be my guest...it isn't good enough for me. If God created, then he created the fully formed creature just as he said he did. I see what he created with my own eyes and I know none of it was the product of accidental chance mutations over millions of undocumented years. I do not believe that the Creator began some process and then stood back and watched it evolve. :confused: You can if you want to.

Thanks for the quote from Awake, @Deeje .

In your post #115 you said
Science, when it comes to evolution, is blind IMO; it relies on supposition and assumption, and it has no real solid evidence to substantiate a single claim for macro-evolution.
They cannot apply to evolution the same kinds of rigorous testing methods that they use for other fields, because no one was around to observe and document the supposed evolutionary changes that were said to take place all those millions of years ago.
(my emphasis)

Yet, the article you quote says
Today no one questions the idea that things we can never see do exist.
Are you saying that these completely contradictory statements are fine. . . .because the word 'suggest' wasn't used? Seriously?:eek:
At least we can agree that atoms are amazing!:D

Or those who think "natural selection" is the blanket answer to all the impossible questions. If it's good enough for you, be my guest...it isn't good enough for me.
I have never said that. All I said was that the theory had never been falsified. Argument from incredulity doesn't change that.
It also doesn't address my question. . .why would God be so bothered because his children haven't figured out everything? And still be a perfect parent?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No, they aren't. The blue whale is carnivorous.

LOL...what does a blue whale eat? Krill. The largest marine mammal eats tiny shrimp and lots of them. That hardly qualifies it as a carnivore.

The largest land animal that is carnivorous is an elephant seal. The largest land animal is an elephant which is a herbivore.

One of the strongest land animals is a gorilla...it too is a herbivore.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Where does the Bible mention dinosaurs? What transpired before the creation of man can only be supposed. Who said dinosaurs were carnivores? Who was around to observe them? It is said that those who are presently carnivorous will be that way no longer.....do you doubt that this is true? Do you know that zoos fed their lions straw during war time when no meat was available for them?

The largest and strongest creatures on earth are all vegetarians.
You should probably stop making stuff up. Tiger, lion. Both strong, big and they eat meat.



No, the Bible did. (Luke 4:5-7)
The Bible doesn't say God gave Satan the world. The Bible says God gave mankind the World to have it in subjection. Do you not read that satan is a liar? Liars lie. Right?



What about them? You demonstrate complete ignorance of their meaning....not surprising.
I suppose not.


No you are trolling me....please move on.
swear1.gif
Aren't you sick of feeding your negativity?
What can I say.....there is SO MUCH. I wouldn't be saying so if not for the fact that you do what you call trolling when I do it. LOL. Do you know what I love about you?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
LOL...what does a blue whale eat? Krill. The largest marine mammal eats tiny shrimp and lots of them. That hardly qualifies it as a carnivore.

The largest land animal that is carnivorous is an elephant seal. The largest land animal is an elephant which is a herbivore.

One of the strongest land animals is a gorilla...it too is a herbivore.
Krill are animals. The blue whale eats them. It's a carnivore. Betta fish are carnivores, too. Venus fly traps are carnivorous, as well. "Carnivore" =/= "eats only big slabs of beef".
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thanks for the quote from Awake, @Deeje .

In your post #115 you said
(my emphasis)

Yet, the article you quote says
Are you saying that these completely contradictory statements are fine. . . .because the word 'suggest' wasn't used? Seriously?:eek:

Is that what I said?...or are we twisting words again. You seem to demonstrate the use of suggestion more than most, so thank you for the good example....I couldn't have demonstrated it better myself. :D

At least we can agree that atoms are amazing!
Its hard to disagree with facts, isn't it?

I have never said that. All I said was that the theory had never been falsified. Argument from incredulity doesn't change that.
It also doesn't address my question. . .why would God be so bothered because his children haven't figured out everything? And still be a perfect parent?

I don't understand how a question like that could even arise in the mind of a believer. "Never been falsified"..."argument from credulity"...you got those expressions from the Bible did you? Whose side are you on if I can be so bold? You sound like you have a foot in both camps. Can you not choose? Or are you waiting to see who has the best argument before you decide? :p
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Deeje do liars lie? Yes. Why do you believe what they say then?
It is a real question and one I have only asked this time (once).

Here is the second time. Why do you believe in what Satan, a liar, says?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Krill are animals. The blue whale eats them. It's a carnivore. Betta fish are carnivores, too. Venus fly traps are carnivorous, as well. "Carnivore" =/= "eats only big slabs of beef".

:p You got me on a technicality....but that isn't what most people think of as "carnivorous". We normally assume "meat eaters" (as in animals that prey on other animals,) to be those who hunt and kill them for food.....not just having food wander into your mouth.

The top 5 carnivores in the world are listed as....

1. South Atlantic Elephant Seal

2 Walrus

3 Steller Sea Lion

4 Grizzly Bear

5 Polar Bear

All are "meat eaters" in the sense that I was referring to.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
:p You got me on a technicality....but that isn't what most people think of as "carnivorous". We normally assume "meat eaters" (as in animals that prey on other animals,) to be those who hunt and kill them for food.....not just having food wander into your mouth.

The top 5 carnivores in the world are listed as....

1. South Atlantic Elephant Seal

2 Walrus

3 Steller Sea Lion

4 Grizzly Bear

5 Polar Bear

All are "meat eaters" in the sense that I was referring to.
That's nice, but the point remains that baleen whales are carnivores. They also hunt for krill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baleen_whale
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivorous
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's nice, but the point remains that baleen whales are carnivores. They also hunt for krill.

I'd hardly call that hunting. All baleen whales simply open their mouths and take in huge amounts of krill. Since they have to ingest such large amounts to sustain their health and weight, its just as well that this food source is supplied in abundance. Doesn't God supply all living creatures with food as long as humans don't mess with their habitat or change weather patterns with their land clearance? :(
 

Olinda

Member
Is that what I said?...or are we twisting words again. You seem to demonstrate the use of suggestion more than most, so thank you for the good example....I couldn't have demonstrated it better myself. :D


Its hard to disagree with facts, isn't it?

"Never been falsified"..."argument from credulity"...you got those expressions from the Bible did you? Or are you waiting to see who has the best argument before you decide? :p

Is that what I said?...or are we twisting words
I referenced your post. All you need to do is look it up and respond. . . much more classy than insinuations.
Outright untruth, unless you can show where I've 'twisted words' in the past. But maybe I misunderstood. . . you did say 'we'. If you twist words, please don't put me at the same level.
Its hard to disagree with facts, isn't it?
Yes, exactly. Especially when they are on the same thread.:)
I don't understand how a question like that could even arise in the mind of a believer.
That depends on what I believe, surely? I'm happy to explain, again, if you wish.

Whose side are you on if I can be so bold? You sound like you have a foot in both camps. Can you not choose?
I see no need to take sides, like kiddies in a playground. It's true, I'm mainly here to learn. At present, I believe in God, but see no need to tell him how he should have created. . .so as with all branches of science, I accept the current understanding, and also any modifications that may be made in the future.

Hope that helps you address the questions I asked.:)
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd hardly call that hunting. All baleen whales simply open their mouths and take in huge amounts of krill. Since they have to ingest such large amounts to sustain their health and weight, its just as well that this food source is supplied in abundance. Doesn't God supply all living creatures with food as long as humans don't mess with their habitat or change weather patterns with their land clearance? :(

Given the amount of krill they eat, its pretty effective hunting. Not sure why you dont just back out of the 'large animals are herbivores' thing.

And no...its not only humans who cause food supply issues with animals. We are just one of the more regretable causes given we have sentience and control.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Given the amount of krill they eat, its pretty effective hunting. Not sure why you dont just back out of the 'large animals are herbivores' thing.

Cheese Louise...don't you start.
gaah.gif
Since when is opening your mouth and swallowing a bunch of shrimp, hunting?
Some of the world's largest and strongest animals are herbivores......
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......you want to argue with me on that?
snapoutofit.gif


And no...its not only humans who cause food supply issues with animals. We are just one of the more regretable causes given we have sentience and control.

I agree with you on that, but humans are at the bottom of most of the problems affecting both people and animals. Habitat destruction being the number one cause of their issues....and we as a species couldn't care less about who we share the planet with, as long as we make money.
cow.gif
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I referenced your post. All you need to do is look it up and respond. . . much more classy than insinuations.

Outright untruth, unless you can show where I've 'twisted words' in the past. But maybe I misunderstood. . . you did say 'we'. If you twist words, please don't put me at the same level.

Yes, exactly. Especially when they are on the same thread.

That depends on what I believe, surely? I'm happy to explain, again, if you wish.


I see no need to take sides, like kiddies in a playground. It's true, I'm mainly here to learn. At present, I believe in God, but see no need to tell him how he should have created. . .so as with all branches of science, I accept the current understanding, and also any modifications that may be made in the future.

Hope that helps you address the questions I asked.

To tell you the truth, I don't even remember what questions you asked.
89.gif
Nor do I care really.

I am never quite sure how to take you Olinda...you seem syrupy nice sometimes and sarcastically mean-spirited at others. Is playing mind games something you enjoy generally, or is it just with me?
Perhaps I am the wrong person to "play" with you. I shall leave you in the sandpit to play by yourself. I am sure others here will be glad to join you.
Perhaps you can ask your questions of someone who wants the play the same games you do?
SEVeyesC08_th.gif

I have lost interest....sorry.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Cheese Louise...don't you start.
gaah.gif
Since when is opening your mouth and swallowing a bunch of shrimp, hunting?

What else would you call it? Death by accidental swallowing?
'Excuse me, Mrs Krill, I have some bad news. Your son, and 3.7 million of his closest friends were eaten by a whale. We're considering it an accidental death.'

to chase or search for (game or other wild animals) for the purpose of catching or killing.
Source : http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hunt

Because the blue whale is able to travel through the ocean without worrying about being hunted themselves they are known as apex predators, which means they are predators that do not have any predators of their own.
Source : http://www.whalefacts.org/blue-whale-facts/

Some of the world's largest and strongest animals are herbivores......
......you want to argue with me on that?
snapoutofit.gif

Nope. I have no need to argue with you on that. Why would I?
An Orca is larger than an elephant, and eats prey a little larger than krill. I would imagine you don't feel the need to argue with me on that. There are plenty of big arse carnivores. And herbivores. And in the case of certain bear species, some pretty big omnivores. Heck, in the case of some other bear species, some pretty big insectivores. How you get over 100kg on a diet of bugs is beyond me, but there you go.

What were we trying to prove/disprove again?
 
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