SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Prove it.An artist designed these......
Living works of art.
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Just Accidental?
- Thread starter Deeje
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Jose Fly
Fisker of men
This makes me wonder just what's really important in your life. Earlier you clearly explained what all would happen to you if you were to recognize evolution as having supporting evidence. You would lose your faith, your friends, and all purpose and meaning to your life.
But here you're saying that it's the lack of evidence that's the overriding factor. So are you saying that scientific data is more important to you than being a Jehovah's Witness? More important than your friends? More important than your relationship with God? More important than your purpose for living? More important than your life having meaning? More important than having a future?
You would throw all that away over fossils and genetic data?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Demonstrable, empirical evidence indicates that evolution is a fact of life. It is only in your imagination that your claims lie. 168 Pages in, and you still can't demonstrate the veracity of your claims, nor does it appear that you understand evolution any better than you did at the start of the thread.Only in your imagination......IMO only a fool could say that these are 'just accidents' of nature.
I think you worship the wrong parent.Credit where it is due...."Mother" nature has to have a "Father" to reproduce.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
What if you're wrong about the Muslim god, or the Hindu gods, or the ancient Greek gods, or the Jewish god, or the thousands of other gods that have been worshiped throughout mankind's history? What if you're wrong about the nature of your own god? Pascal's Wager is garbage. It's a shame you're still trying to use it.Really? Nature is just "naturally programmed" to select the best for itself....a bit like us going into a store and selecting the things we want in clothing and food and footwear.....but its a conscious choice based by an intelligent mind with an outcome envisaged.
That is true.....the wrong kind of worship can set a person up for bad parenting. Ancient peoples sacrificed their children to their gods, so I agree with you. But the right kind of worship can be very advantageous, imparting good principles and having a Higher Authority to account to at the end of the day, means that no injustice goes unpunished.
You are absolutely entitled to think so. Makes no difference to me. Let the music play on......
I believe all will be revealed soon enough, and then we will all see whose argument is flimsy.
If we are wrong, what have we lost? An unfulfilled expectation.......if you are wrong, what have you got to lose?
Food for thought.
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SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
How about flesh-eating bacteria and childhood cancer? Are they also beautifully designed?They look like beautifully designed creatures to me....hand crafted works of art.
Natural selection has a flare for color and design?....how clever of something that has no intelligent direction.
If you say so......wait till you meet him......
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I don't get it. Do you think that every time it snows somewhere, God individually creates every single snowflake and throws them down to Earth at us?Speaking of special snowflakes.....I suppose that these are just accidental as well.....
Who knew that something so small could be so beautifully and perfectly designed? No two alike.
Bless the man who discovered how to photograph snowflakes!
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I have a question ...No, actually I have a great interest in learning....I just have no use for knowledge that is founded on a false premise.......Isn't that what you would say to me?
Yes, I did look at the link. All it did was explain the process God used in creation.....did you think it would mean something else to me?
I believe in cause and effect...don't you?
I have no interest in those who question my credibility. How many questioned Jesus' credibility? He demonstrated that just because the majority are convinced of something, doesn't make it right.
I am confident about the existence of my Creator and see all the evidence I need every day to reinforce that confidence.
What do you have that is founded on actual evidence rather than misinterpreted conjecture?
Oh, I have a lot to say about the ignorance demonstrated in that quote.....
First of all, it wasn't "the tree of knowledge". It was a tree that represented God's right to set the standard of behavior for his free willed children. God knew that humans would not benefit from a knowledge of evil, so he kept that knowledge to himself, whilst allowing only what was good to be experienced in their lives. But because they were free willed he could not prevent them from partaking of it if they chose to do so. He therefore placed that knowledge behind a penalty so severe that only a fool would have disobeyed him. Apparently a clever lie by a disgruntled angel undermined the severity of the penalty to the newest and least educated member of the human race....."You surely will not die" negated any reason for not eating it, especially when something beneficial was promised...."you will be like God, knowing good and bad".
This free willed rebel tricked the woman into eating of the forbidden fruit in the hope that he could get to the man by dividing his loyalties. It worked! Separating them from their rightful Sovereign, he then became their substitute god, gaining the worship he had always craved. He has been used by God to test humanity ever since. Some will pass the test....many will not. (Matthew 7:13-14; 21-23)
Free will was not a mistake. It was given to enhance life by adding choices to so many things.....it was however, meant to be exercised within the parameters set by the Creator. This is what was challenged by the devil. He knows where he will end up, but he will take as many of us down with him as he can....just by the exercise of our free will.Deception is the devil's stock in trade.....he's had millennia to hone his craft. Ever been conned by an expert?
The knowledge that the Creator wanted his human children to learn was already being imparted to Adam, even before his wife was created. We are not creatures driven purely by instinct, but with a level of intelligence unmatched by any other earthly creature, we were to take in knowledge from God, and from our surroundings and experiences and impart them to our children. It was meant to be a life-long journey of discovery and endless wonder, in conditions that provided everything needed to make life in paradise everything it was meant to be.
We all know in our heart of hearts that this is not the way life is supposed to be. Our collective expectation of a peaceful, productive and happy life is implanted in our DNA. (Ecclesiastes 3:11)
I believe the Bible when it says that we will go back to that first purpose, but not until God has tested each one of us as to fitness first. He is choosing the citizens of his kingdom based on their ability to obey him out of love, not out of fear.....and not with a begrudging spirit.
Clarence Darrow was apparently as ignorant as a lot of others who downgrade the Bible. His source of information about Christianity came from Christendom.....the weeds of Jesus parable. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43) It just goes to prove that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Why do you think the god you worship is too stupid, or limited in power, (or whatever reason) to have created the evolutionary process?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Sure you can. I know many Christians who believe that their god is intelligent and creative enough to have come up with evolution and put it into action.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not recognize anyone but Jehovah's Witnesses "Christian".
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Prove it.You think you have real freedom now?It is a sad delusion. People who defect from the Creator have just opted for a different form of slavery.....their 'master' is neither kind nor loving. He is cold like the cash that drives their selfish lives. (1 Timothy 6:10)
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
That's a shame.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
E V I D E N C E
Oh seriously...the "evidence" presented didn't work so now we are into emotional blackmail.....
Shooting the messenger is all you have left....? Now that is sad.
The scientist's own 'emotional attachment' to their 'religion' is showing IMO....it produces hostility and a need to defend the indefensible.
Prove it.
They say the Mona Lisa was painted by Leonardo da Vinci.....can you prove it?
Have you personally seen the artist? Did you see him produce this artwork?
Give it a rest Fly.....this is just another pathetic attempt at emotional blackmail....don't waste your energy.I throw it all away because everything I see in nature is beautifully designed and made to do what it does in conjunction with the system it was designed to inhabit. Design does not happen by chance....it needs a designer. Nature exhibits purpose, and purpose requires intelligence....a reason for its existence. Tell me when that is not the case, other than in evolution? Tell me when we see life come from non-living matter....only in the suggestions of evolution. Tell me when something comes from nothing.....except in evolution? Your whole premise fails on every level. Evolution does not operate by the principles science knows to be true.
The various individually designed, interactive components in a computer didn't just happen by accident. Very intelligent minds conceived, designed and manufactured those components and then put them together in the right sequence, otherwise we would not be talking right now. The various individually designed and interactive components in the human body didn't just manufacture themselves either, otherwise we would not be talking right now.
You can believe it was all a series of billions of fortunate 'accidents' over billions of years if you wish.....but that is complete nonsense to me....and to a lot of other people who cannot swallow the whole "accidental" scenario promoted by people who are supposed to be intelligent, but who demonstrate how easy it is to hoodwink people by appealing to their ego.
Bullying people into submission is not really fooling anyone...except those who want to believe that we are not the product of an Intelligent Designer. We are all free to believe whatever we wish.
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osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
The frog has symmetrical color . The designer isn't very wonderful is all. far less than a God.Prove it.
SkepticThinker said:
Its a theory,
You come into this thread after 180 pages and thousands of replies and imagine you have anything new to add? Seriously.....you are wasting space on this site.
Is that what you think we believe...?
Please.....do you have anything of value to add to this discussion?If you think God is stupid then you are elevating yourself above him.....that says it all really.
I think we all know who is asking 'stupid' questions.....
Obviously if there is a Creator he is way smarter than any human....unless of course you can create a universe from nothing.....?
And I believe that these people have sold out because they cannot defend their own ridiculous version of creation so they try to have a foot in both camps, attempting to make themselves credible in both.....sorry, you have to choose. I choose God. You can choose whatever you like.
Its a theory,and because it cannot be proven by any demonstrable scientific method that requires hard evidence....it will remain a theory. It is unprovable by any lab test used to establish the truth of other branches of science. Adaptation is not proof for macro-evolution and never was.
This is starting to seem a bit like paranoid delusion... And i don't mean that as an insult. It's just... Almost entirely opposite of accepted... Not just science but common sense.
Theory is supported by facts: Theories never get upgraded to facts. I still think it's funny that you seem to think it like this.
I'm going to ask you a question, and i'm not expecting an answer even though it should be a simple one:
When theory has enough... Evidence, what does it become, in your own words? Don't say fact, because that would be factually incorrect:
Wikipedia: "In science, a fact is a repeatable careful observation or measurement (by experimentation or other means), also called empirical evidence. Facts are central to building scientific theories."
You should read this entire article:
Evolution as fact and theory - Wikipedia
I know you won't read it.
But the basic gist of it is: In science, facts are used to construct a theory. Not the other way around. This isn't about opinion, and you can't "feel differently" about it. If you're going to use the scientific method in an argument, then you must use it in its entirety and not just cherry pick the stuff you like and ignore the rest. And according to the scientific method, theories are built on facts.
You're welcome to say "nuh-uh" to this like you say to everything else, but that's besides the point: The point is i made this post, and you are going to fail replying to it in a proper manner, and in fact your reply is what i'm actually trying to achieve with this post. Your reply will then count as evidence for something.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
"Emotional blackmail"......that's an absolutely fascinating choice of terms on your part. At first I wondered why you would say that about me, because how in the world could I emotionally blackmail you? For me to do that, I'd have to be holding your emotions hostage in order to get something out of you or get you to do something. But I'm not doing either and am merely trying to understand where you're coming from on this issue.
Then it hit me.....this is classic projection. Yes, you are indeed being emotionally blackmailed, but not by me. In just the last couple of days you've described all the emotional and social consequences you'd have to endure were you to recognize evolution as real. As you described, if you were to do that, it would be like divorcing your family; you would be breaking a vow with God; you would be dishonoring God; you would no longer have answers to important life questions; your life would lose all purpose and meaning; you would have no future; you would be labeled a slanderer and a defector from the Jehovah's Witnesses, and treated like rotten fruit or someone spreading poison.
There's your emotional blackmailing! The Jehovah's Witnesses have made it clear to you......recognize evolution as real and your entire life will have no meaning and your JW friends and family will disown you and treat you like "rotten fruit".
So yeah.....no wonder you do everything you can to keep telling yourself that there's no evidence for evolution and science is a giant "fraud factory". The minute you don't, the Jehovah's Witnesses will bring all those emotional and social consequences to bear on you. It's quite literally "Believe what we tell you or else we'll make sure your life is miserable".
What a sad, desperate state you're in. No wonder you don't mind saying things that aren't true, contradicting yourself, ignoring questions, and making unfounded accusations. No matter how bad those behaviors make you look, it pales in comparison to what you'd have to face were you to admit that there actually is evidence for evolution. Better to be thought of as a liar by a bunch of non-believers than have your entire life fall apart.
"Emotional blackmail".......yep. Thanks for pointing that out.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
They say the Mona Lisa was painted by Leonardo da Vinci.....can you prove it?
Have you personally seen the artist? Did you see him produce this artwork?
We can put this to the test-
If you asked me to explain the existence of the Mona Lisa, while forbidding creative intelligence--
I'd probably start with the easiest answer; it always existed, no creation hence no creator (static/ eternal model)
Once you showed me the date, I could claim this was fake, it's still eternal (steady state)
Once you proved the age, I might propose that the painting can spontaneously recreate itself so it's still kinda eternal (big crunch)
once that was debunked, my last possible resort would have to be an infinite probability machine that can create absolutely anything spontaneously for no particular reason (multiverses)
(oops- make that everything except artists)..
If you find yourself resorting to the last answer on anything, that's a pretty good indicator that creative intelligence was involved
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