Just Accidental?

[Jose Fly]

O look...another assumption based on your interpretation of what I said.

Then please walk me through how you came to believe that the proper response to the virtually complete fossil record of the foraminifera, which shows Darwinian evolution over long periods of time, was to point out that a Wiki page uses the word "likely".

The same way I would understand if a doctor was to describe a medical procedure in layman's terms.

So your "serious study" of evolution was done in layman's terms.

Go back over the thread and see whatever was quoted to me as "proof" of your beliefs. They were no such thing.
You want "specific" material when the net is full of such articles? Seriously? Pick whatever you like.

You're dodging the question Deeje. Why? You said you undertook "serious study" of evolutionary biology, and all I'm asking is for some examples of the material you read. Why is that the type of question that you avoid? Are you embarrassed by the truth?

In my youth, I studied evolution on a level that most people do. We all start with the basics and move on when we are convinced that something is true.

You received a standard high school level education in evolution. If you don't mind me asking, about how long ago was this? No need to be specific, just was it more like 10 years ago, or 30?

I was raised as a Christian but had left the church due to many issues....I wanted to study evolution for myself. I couldn't accept the church's version of creation because it was not in keeping with what science knew to be true. JW's were the only ones who had a reasonable attitude towards the Genesis account. Their description of creation was totally in keeping with both science and the Bible. The more I studied, the more I had an overwhelming sense that I had at last found the truth.

So much of the "serious study" of evolution that you undertook after high school involved reading Jehovah's Witness material, correct? Is that why you're so reluctant to cite any material you read? Is it because if you were to be honest, it would be mostly JW literature?

What is this that you keep harping on about?

The root issue in all this.

I have been a JW by choice for over 40 years. No one in all that time has produced any solid evidence that macro-evolution ever happened. They provide proof of adaptation, for which I have no issues since it can be demonstrated in a lab.......macro-evolution on the other hand, cannot be proven at all. It is a "belief" based on nothing but assumptions about what "might have" taken place when no one was around to document a single thing. Guesswork cannot replace solid evidence and you don't have any.

I am not at the mercy of my emotions....logic is my first port of call. Religion based on emotion is not a good guide for anything. The truth stands alone and speaks to both the heart and the mind. It did that for me.

Now, if I thought for one moment that JW's did not teach the truth, nothing would keep me there. I am more concerned with truth than I am with "religion". My faith in an Intelligent Designer comes after many many years of study and personal research.....that never fails to reinforce my conviction that I found the truth all those years ago. I have never been disappointed in my Creator.

All that and you didn't actually answer the question I asked. Let's try again....

Be honest....if you were to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses, you would face some very real emotional and social consequences, wouldn't you?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I provide scripture for the undecided so that they can see for themselves that God predicted the likes of proud scientists who are determined to eradicate God from the consciousness of others.

But all that the undecided see is words that anybody could have written. If they see words and attribute them to a god, then they are not undecided. They've already chosen to believe the Bible on faith.

Just because you reject the idea of an Intelligent Designer doesn't make him disappear....in fact the Bible says all will account to him, whether they believe in him or not. I accept that this is fair considering that all have equal opportunity to make up their own minds about everything as free willed beings. We therefore determine our own destiny.

That's what the Muslims tell us, too, and also we reject their message, too - just like you do.

Here's one of their scriptures giving you fair warning:

2:39 "But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein."

Not convinced yet? Try this:

2:126 "And when Abraham prayed: My Lord! Make this a region of security and bestow upon its people fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day, He answered: As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey's end!"

Now you've been told twice. Are you obeying Allah's commandments? Do you face Mecca five times a day and pray to Allah? Have you made the hajj?

The Qur'an says all will account to Allah, whether we believe in Him or not. Do you accept that that is fair as well considering that all have equal opportunity to make up their own minds about everything as free willed beings. We therefore determine our own destiny.

I have as much "hard objective evidence" for my beliefs as you do. The Bible doesn't get more "public" than it already is and neither do those who preach its message.

The Bible, like the Qur'an, is evidence of nothing except that it was written. Or maybe you think that the Quran's is hard, objective evidence in support of Islamic beliefs.

The truth cannot be "verified" for "non-believers" because you need spiritual comprehension to understand and accept any of it.

You need nothing to understand the Bible but a knowledge of the language in which your copy is written in, and there is no reason to accept any of it. You're just supporting the notion that you have to believe the Bible even before opening it up to believe the Bible once you are reading (or hearing) it, which is what "spiritual comprehension" means.

I'm guessing that you didn't have any more trouble understanding those quranic scriptures than I did, which is exactly how much trouble I have understanding biblical scripture.

And I'll bet that you didn't accept those quranic scriptures. Shall we conclude on that basis that you lack spiritual comprehension? That's pretty much your argument regarding the Bible.

You seem to lack the ability to see how you are perceived by others even when shown using your own arguments mutatis mutandis ("comparing two or more cases or situations making necessary alterations while not affecting the main point at issue"). I assume that you consider everything you just read in this post irrelevant and have already rejected all of it out of hand, which I attribute to a the faith based confirmation bias that determines what you will see and what you will not.

"Antiprocessing - the preemptive recognition and marginalization of undesired information by the interplay of mental defense mechanisms: the subconscious compromises information that would cause cognitive dissonance."

We can never reach one another. Our epistemologies and the way we process information are radically different.

 

[Deeje]

"Antiprocessing - the preemptive recognition and marginalization of undesired information by the interplay of mental defense mechanisms: the subconscious compromises information that would cause cognitive dissonance."

Evolutionists see this in those who believe in creation and we see it in evolutionists.....and never the twain shall meet.....as it was always intended to be. The Bible confirms that the "separation" must be complete so that the final curtain call can take place as it was foretold. (Matthew 25:31-33) I can see all things proceeding according to plan. No one is forcing anyone to believe it......but they can never say they weren't warned.

We can never reach one another. Our epistemologies and the way we process information are radically different.

A sad AMEN to that. The messenger's job is to deliver the message.....conversion is up to the individual and God.....nothing to do with the message bearer. (John 6:44)

I don't have to convince anyone of anything. All I need to do is point out the obvious flaws in the theory of evolution, which is what I have done throughout this thread. I have demonstrated on numerous occasions that the articles written by scientists (even recent ones) are full of supposition, not actual provable facts, and yet evolution is taught in schools as if it was indisputable. I dispute the entire theory that macro-evolution is a spin off from adaptation, and will continue to do so.

The readers here can make up their own minds....we all have to choose where we stand on this issue. I have chosen my position and you have chosen yours.....I wish you well in spite of our differences.

 

[Deeje]

All that and you didn't actually answer the question I asked. Let's try again....

Be honest....if you were to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses, you would face some very real emotional and social consequences, wouldn't you?

You know, Mr Fly, your ignorance concerning JW's is quite disturbing to say the least. Who provides you with your information? Ex JW's? Why is this even a topic on this thread. Have you run out of argument? Shooting the messenger seems to be a favorite pastime of yours.

There are many who leave our ranks for different reasons. Some unbaptized individuals, even after years of study, just cannot give up what they like to do when God commands them to stop. Alcoholism, drug abuse, immorality, celebrity adoration, nationalism, false religious practices.....there are many weaknesses that people find hard to fight. Lack of faith too is something that overtakes people, but your assertion that everyone who leaves is treated badly is very wrong. If a person just stops coming to our meetings but has not engaged in any wrongdoing, they are not disfellowshipped. Efforts are made by the elders and others in the congregation to reach out to such ones by providing loving counsel and practical assistance to help them overcome their problems.

The only ones who face disfellowshipping are those who are dedicated, (i.e. baptized, having taken vows before God to uphold his laws and to do his will) but who for reasons known only to themselves, renige on that vow. These are often not content to just leave, but who in a spiteful way want revenge. Perhaps they see things a little differently to what is taught in our world-wide brotherhood and expect the elders to change those things to suit them.....it won't happen. They get angry and want to force their views on others, causing divisions in the congregation. That is not the way we do things. If a change is necessary, it will come through the right channels and be done in the right way for the benefit of all.

Others have been caught out doing the wrong thing and when pressed, instead of humbly admitting a mistake or a lapse in judgment, they put the blame on someone else or deny that it ever happened. We do not tolerate willful sinners in our ranks.
Repentant ones are always granted God's forgiveness as Jesus demonstrated on many occasions.

You accuse me of ignorance, when you are so very ignorant of facts yourself. The "social and emotional consequences" of breaking God's law are well known before a person decides to defect. These measures were practiced among the first Christians so there is no reason to abandon them now. God's rules don't change.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Evolutionists see this in those who believe in creation and we see it in evolutionists.....and never the twain shall meet.....as it was always intended to be. The Bible confirms that the "separation" must be complete so that the final curtain call can take place as it was foretold. (Matthew 25:31-33) I can see all things proceeding according to plan. No one is forcing anyone to believe it......but they can never say they weren't warned.



A sad AMEN to that. The messenger's job is to deliver the message.....conversion is up to the individual and God.....nothing to do with the message bearer. (John 6:44)

I don't have to convince anyone of anything. All I need to do is point out the obvious flaws in the theory of evolution, which is what I have done throughout this thread. I have demonstrated on numerous occasions that the articles written by scientists (even recent ones) are full of supposition, not actual provable facts, and yet evolution is taught in schools as if it was indisputable. I dispute the entire theory that macro-evolution is a spin off from adaptation, and will continue to do so.

The readers here can make up their own minds....we all have to choose where we stand on this issue. I have chosen my position and you have chosen yours.....I wish you well in spite of our differences.

You ignored most of my post.

 

[Darkstorn]

You ignored most of my post.

At least some predictions turn out correct.

Except she's probably the second most predictable person i've ever witnessed.

 

[Deeje]

You ignored most of my post.

You really want to rehash?

I assume that you consider everything you just read in this post irrelevant and have already rejected all of it out of hand, which I attribute to a the faith based confirmation bias that determines what you will see and what you will not.

"Confirmation bias" is just as much demonstrated on the part of scientists who will wave away any mention of the Creator or the Bible as "irrelevant". Your own bias determines "what you will see and what you will not". If you want God to go away....he will. He doesn't need us....according to the Bible, we need him. If you don't need him, then so be it.

The Bible, like the Qur'an, is evidence of nothing except that it was written. Or maybe you think that the Quran's is hard, objective evidence in support of Islamic beliefs.

The Bible is nothing like the Quran apart from the writings of Moses. Like Jews and those who claim to be Christians, they also have the command......"thou shalt not kill" (literally "murder" or unlawful killing.) I don't see any of those who claim to be worshippers of the Abrahamic God following the teachings of their own scripture.....do you? All are responsible for taking innocent lives....something God's law never sanctioned. Worshippers of the true God try hard to keep his commands and do not justify breaking them. (Matthew 7:21-23)

The ones who really follow the Scriptures (or even the Quran) are the ones who live by its principles 24/7....not just at the times they attend their places of worship. You can't leave him at the door on your way out, nor can you preach hate for anyone. Jesus was sent out to the "lost sheep" in Israel, not to the died-in-the-wool legalistic Pharisees....the "blind guides" who "strained at gnats but gulped down camels". (Matthew 23:23-24)

That's what the Muslims tell us, too, and also we reject their message, too - just like you do.

And you are free to ignore them just as you are free to ignore any other "believers".....but please don't pretend that you don't have your own "belief" system. Belief that is unsubstantiated by facts is based on "faith". If you consider what you have as "evidence", then I have as much evidence as you do.

Are you obeying Allah's commandments?

Like Christendom's god and like the god of Judaism, "Allah" is simply Arabic for "God". These nameless gods do not exist IMO.
The true God identifies himself in his inspired word as a God whose name (YHWH) is rich in meaning....the God that the ancient Jews used to worship, and who used his name freely and reverently for centuries. Recorded almost 7,000 times in their holy writings, YHWH took his name from false worshippers and gave it to a nation who carry out the commands of his son....."a people for his name" (Acts 15:14) These include people from all faiths and all nationalities who form one united global brotherhood in the service of the "only true God". (John 17:3) This is what I believe and this is what I see. It is a pleasure to be part of this nation.

You need nothing to understand the Bible but a knowledge of the language in which your copy is written in, and there is no reason to accept any of it.

If you believe that, then what is left to say? I have faith in God's word as I have seen for myself the impact it has on people who study it with the aid of God's spirit. Without the spirit, it is just meaningless words on a page. (John 6:44)

You're just supporting the notion that you have to believe the Bible even before opening it up to believe the Bible once you are reading (or hearing) it, which is what "spiritual comprehension" means.

I'll let the apostle Paul answer that one.....FWIW....
Hebrews 4:11-13:
"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account."

Unless you have experienced that power, you will never know what it means. To read the Bible with an open heart and mind and be willing to be led to the truth "like a young child", (Matthew 18:1-6) facilitates the flow of God's spirit.....this is what opens up spiritual comprehension. It is God who determines "the thoughts and intentions of the heart"......often hidden even from ourselves. This was my own experience and that of many others. We each have choices about all our decisions, but not about who God "draws" to the teachings of his son. He makes that decision.

 

[Sapiens]

"Confirmation bias" is just as much demonstrated on the part of scientists who will wave away any mention of the Creator or the Bible as "irrelevant".

Not even a good try, for sure ... no cigar.

The difference is that god is found to be "irrelevant" on the basis of a complete lack of evidence (your irrelevant pretty pictures notwithstanding); religion finds god to be "relevant" on the basis of "confirmation bias." Let's not pretend that the highly disparate situations are of equal rank.

 

[Jose Fly]

You know, Mr Fly, your ignorance concerning JW's is quite disturbing to say the least. Who provides you with your information? Ex JW's?

Again you're misunderstanding the point. I'm not asking about what the church would do to you, I'm asking about what it would mean for you personally to leave the church.

Why is this even a topic on this thread.

Because it's the root issue behind this entire debate. You made it quite clear that being a JW means you cannot compromise on evolution/creationism. So obviously your JW faith is a major factor here, which means that's what we should discuss. This whole "show me the evidence"--"here's the evidence"--"not good enough" game not only misses the point and is a complete waste of time, but in pretending that this has anything at all to do with the science it insults our collective intelligence.

It's plainly obvious that the overriding factor here is your JW faith, so it makes sense to address that first. Now with that in mind, let's try again....

What would happen for you personally if you were to decide to reject the JW teachings on evolution and creationism? Would you still be able to be an active, participating Jehovah's Witness? Could you attend JW functions? Would you have to keep your new views on evolution and creationism to yourself?

 

[savagewind]

Jehovah's Witnesses who leave the Watchtower become flounders.*

*It's a pun for flounder.

 

[savagewind]

They become angry flounders and satan bait. That is according to The Truth. so it has to be true.

 

[savagewind]

If you all are wondering what the hell I am talking about, I am answering the gentleman's @Jose Fly question. It was "I'm asking about what it would mean for you personally to leave the church."
OK?

 

[Deeje]

Not even a good try, for sure ... no cigar.

I don't smoke....so no great loss.

The difference is that god is found to be "irrelevant" on the basis of a complete lack of evidence (your irrelevant pretty pictures notwithstanding); religion finds god to be "relevant" on the basis of "confirmation bias." Let's not pretend that the highly disparate situations are of equal rank.

But lets not pretend that we don't each have a "belief system" based on "faith" in the writings of our 'gods'.

Since when does science have the high ground when they cannot prove that evolution ever took place. You mistake speculation, suggestion and wishful thinking for "evidence". I can take the same "evidence" and it tells me a vastly different story to the one evolutionary science tells. You also suffer as much from confirmation bias as we do.

 

[Deeje]

Again you're misunderstanding the point. I'm not asking about what the church would do to you, I'm asking about what it would mean for you personally to leave the church.

That question makes about as much sense as asking me what I would do if I ever decided to 'divorce' my parents. Since that is NEVER likely to happen....its a dumb question. I was lost for the first 20 odd years of my life. I questioned everything carefully because I am not easy to convince, so I took years to arrive at my decision to become a JW, after analyzing everything from every angle. Once my decision was made, I took a vow that was more important to me than my marriage vows. I meant it unreservedly. The one with whom I was entering a 'covenant' would never let me down. I could let him down, but he would never leave me unless I left him first. He has never failed me. My faith is stronger today than it was then.

Because it's the root issue behind this entire debate. You made it quite clear that being a JW means you cannot compromise on evolution/creationism. So obviously your JW faith is a major factor here, which means that's what we should discuss.

This is an assumption on your part...again.

It isn't being a JW that keeps me from acknowledging "the truth" of evolution.....it is the very fact that there are NO FACTS proving that evolution is even true. There is no REAL EVIDENCE that it ever happened. That is reason enough...don't you think? What do you have that is not a suggestion based on another equally unfounded suggestion? What do you have apart from diagrams and charts insinuating what "might have" or "could have" happened all those eons ago? You have a house of cards that will fall in a heap soon enough. I'll be waiting to applaud the devastation of this God-dishonoring nonsense.

This whole "show me the evidence"--"here's the evidence"--"not good enough" game not only misses the point and is a complete waste of time, but in pretending that this has anything at all to do with the science it insults our collective intelligence.

Well, if we are going to insult anyone's intelligence, evolution's scenario in its simplest form implies that amoebas somehow transformed themselves into dinosaurs and that the dinosaurs somehow transformed themselves into chickens. Land animals sprouted flippers and made themselves into whales......seriously, you need to step back and see what you are actually trying to sell.

If that doesn't require more faith than creation, I'll eat my hat.

It seems to me that evolutionists also insist on "show me the evidence" for a Creator....."not good enough"...so who is also playing this game?

It's plainly obvious that the overriding factor here is your JW faith, so it makes sense to address that first. Now with that in mind, let's try again....

What would happen for you personally if you were to decide to reject the JW teachings on evolution and creationism?

I have already rejected evolution based on years of my own research into the subject. You reckon I would dismiss all that and go back to something I have already proven to be nonsense? I have a reasonable explanation for everything and answers to every question I have ever asked from the Bible.....what could you possibly give me that is better than what I already have?

No purpose, no meaning, no future....no thanks!

Would you still be able to be an active, participating Jehovah's Witness? Could you attend JW functions? Would you have to keep your new views on evolution and creationism to yourself?

Those who leave our ranks have already been discussed. It is clear that once you learn "the truth"....you can't "unlearn" it. And since we can see that no one else teaches it, who would we turn to?...and why would we receive 'defectors' back into our ranks only to have them spread their poison. Let them commiserate with each other

....that is all they can do apparently. They have nowhere to go. Like a ripe piece of fruit, they can't go back to being 'green'....they just go rotten.

If I became a defector, and a slanderer I would expect and deserve the same treatment.

 

[Sapiens]

I don't smoke....so no great loss.



But lets not pretend that we don't each have a "belief system" based on "faith" in the writings of our 'gods'.

The pretense is all yours.

Since when does science have the high ground when they cannot prove that evolution ever took place. You mistake speculation, suggestion and wishful thinking for "evidence". I can take the same "evidence" and it tells me a vastly different story to the one evolutionary science tells. You also suffer as much from confirmation bias as we do.

It has already been established that evolution is as well proven as anything in science and that your inability/unwillingness to understand that is your failing, not science's.

 

[Deeje]

It has already been established that evolution is as well proven as anything in science and that your inability/unwillingness to understand that is your failing, not science's.

Established by whom?....EVOLUTIONISTS?

Who else?

If it is "as well proven as anything in science" that doesn't say much for the rest of science then does it?

My "unwillingness" to accept what evolutionists teach is because it has no real evidence to support its claims......and that matches your "unwillingness" to understand what the Bible teaches, for the same reason I would imagine....?

 

[Sapiens]

Established by whom?....EVOLUTIONISTS?

Who else?

The fact is that there is a simple duality here, the scientific evolutionists and the teeny-weenie scientific lunatic fringe, so whom do you think established over a century and a half of careful work that evolution is, basically, what you would term, "a fact?"

If it is "as well proven as anything in science" that doesn't say much for the rest of science then does it?

That is not the issue, the issue is the fact that you are siding with the scientific lunatic fringe concerning a subject that you brag on how little you know about. Rather fantastic.

My "unwillingness" to accept what evolutionists teach is because it has no real evidence to support its claims......and that matches your "unwillingness" to understand what the Bible teaches, for the same reason I would imagine....?

Your unwillingness is based, at best, on a lack of knowledge and education and at worst on willful denial of that which is obvious to well over 95% of the membership of the National Academy of Sciences. If you are maintaining that you are more knowledgeable, more discerning, better educated, better informed, better read, and so on that the collective membership of that august body, then your ego problems are rather more than can be dealt with here.

 

[Deeje]

The fact is that there is a simple duality here, the scientific evolutionists and the teeny-weenie scientific lunatic fringe, so whom do you think established over a century and a half of careful work that evolution is, basically, what you would term, "a fact?"

O the lunatic fringe...? Who assumes that they fit this designation? The smug majority?

You know, that is what I love about the Bible.....the heroes are always considered the "lunatic fringe" by the smug majority who always get their comeuppance in the end. I see a similar scenario looming.

That is not the issue, the issue is the fact that you are siding with the scientific lunatic fringe concerning a subject that you brag on how little you know about. Rather fantastic.

I brag that I am not taken in by the jargon of the smug majority. When you strip the jargon away and explain your theory in simple terms, it is exposed as the fraud it has always been. Pure fantasy.

Your unwillingness is based, at best, on a lack of knowledge and education and at worst on willful denial of that which is obvious to well over 95% of the membership of the National Academy of Sciences.

What makes you think that "95% of the membership of the National Academy of Sciences" has to be correct if they have all swallowed the same empty rhetoric based on the assumptions of their peers, rather than anything provable? I have seen scientists and science students interviewed about how certain they are that evolution is a fact....they all say the same thing...."of course it is"....but when you press them to produce evidence that does not rely on either faith or belief....they are stumped......Why? Because it doesn't exist. They mumble some facts about adaptation but this is far from proof for macro-evolution.

If you are maintaining that you are more knowledgeable, more discerning, better educated, better informed, better read, and so on that the collective membership of that august body, then your ego problems are rather more than can be dealt with here.

That "august body" can be as deluded as anyone else who has a belief system they don't want to abandon. How silly would they look and how ridiculed would any individual be if they tried to infer that science has it all wrong on this topic? We only have to look at those who have tried. They have been laughed out of academia and their careers ruined.
You think we don't see the bully boy tactics used by those who promote evolution?
Dawkins' is a classic example...his first port of call is derision and ridicule when dealing with anyone who disagrees with him.

Talk about 'ego problems'....evolutionary science seems to be fueled by a collection of egos, not a collection of facts.

 

[gnostic]

Dawkins' is a classic example...his first port of call is derision and ridicule when dealing with anyone who disagrees with him.

Are you hearing yourself, Deeje?

What do you think you do, when someone disagree with you? Your first port of call whenever you disagree with anyone is to use ridicule and derision.

Look in the mirror. You got tonne of ego in spade.

 

[Jose Fly]

That question makes about as much sense as asking me what I would do if I ever decided to 'divorce' my parents. Since that is NEVER likely to happen....its a dumb question. I was lost for the first 20 odd years of my life. I questioned everything carefully because I am not easy to convince, so I took years to arrive at my decision to become a JW, after analyzing everything from every angle. Once my decision was made, I took a vow that was more important to me than my marriage vows. I meant it unreservedly. The one with whom I was entering a 'covenant' would never let me down. I could let him down, but he would never leave me unless I left him first. He has never failed me. My faith is stronger today than it was then.

Obviously then, leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses would be enormously costly for you, both emotionally and socially.

That's very important.

This is an assumption on your part

No, it's what you told me. You directly stated that being a JW means you cannot compromise on this issue.

I'll be waiting to applaud the devastation of this God-dishonoring nonsense.

And there we have it again....for you, evolution is "God dishonoring".

I have already rejected evolution based on years of my own research into the subject.

Yet no matter how many times you're asked, you can't say what that research included. That's very telling and fits the overall picture you're painting.

You reckon I would dismiss all that and go back to something I have already proven to be nonsense? I have a reasonable explanation for everything and answers to every question I have ever asked from the Bible.....what could you possibly give me that is better than what I already have?

No purpose, no meaning, no future....no thanks!

So if you were to become an "evolutionist", you would lose the answers to everything you thought you knew, and your life would have no purpose, meaning, or future.

Again, that's an enormous price to pay.

Those who leave our ranks have already been discussed. It is clear that once you learn "the truth"....you can't "unlearn" it. And since we can see that no one else teaches it, who would we turn to?...and why would we receive 'defectors' back into our ranks only to have them spread their poison. Let them commiserate with each other

....that is all they can do apparently. They have nowhere to go. Like a ripe piece of fruit, they can't go back to being 'green'....they just go rotten.

If I became a defector, and a slanderer I would expect and deserve the same treatment.

First, I appreciate this. It's perhaps the most honest I've seen you. So thanks.

You paint a very bleak and depressing picture of all the things that you would have to endure, were you to admit that evolution has supporting evidence. If you were to do that, it would be like divorcing your family; you would be breaking a vow with God; you would be dishonoring God; you would no longer have answers to important life questions; your life would lose all purpose and meaning; you would have no future; you would be labeled a slanderer and a defector from the Jehovah's Witnesses, and treated like rotten fruit or someone spreading poison.

That's horrible....terrible. I don't care who a person is or what the subject is, No one wants to go through that for any reason. I would never ask anyone to put themselves through that over something in science. Lose all meaning and purpose for your life? Just by admitting that evolution has supporting evidence?

No wonder you behave the way you do here. It's far better to be thought of as dishonest and delusional by a handful of "evolutionists" on a message board than to lose all reason for living. In every interaction with someone here you have all those horrible, terrible consequences hanging over your head. Every time someone posts a scientific paper or tries to walk you through some of the science, all those things you described are looming over you. And that obviously affects your ability to think about this subject rationally and objectively. I mean, surely you're not going to tell me that a person who stands to lose all meaning and purpose to their existence if evolution were true is able to examine the science behind evolution in an objective and rational manner, right?

Simply put Deeje, you're as emotionally biased on this subject as a person can possibly be. The only question now is, do you realize it?