• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Just Accidental?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sapiens

Polymathematician
The point is how it worked first, regardless of how it was selected, assume that you
represent the natural selection and your job is to select the working televisions and to disregard
the bad ones, we'll assume that all parts needed for the television was ready by chance, transistors, capacitors, diodes, ICs, screens, boards, wires, power supply ...etc, and then all
parts have to be connected by randomness, no plans and no design.

Why to think that selection is the magical solution for how television was made?
This is not just over simplified, it is simply incorrect. First of all parts are not connected by randomness, no plans and no design, their connections are all selected for on the basis of functioning. Additionally, the TVs reproduce themselves as a average of two existing and working sets, with some small additional variation thrown in for good measure.
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
Sorry but that is simply not the case. Read John Maynard Smith's works dealing with game theory and ESS.
References please.
References please.

Do remember that altruism is not expected in all cases, but then neither is bloody tooth and fang style competition, it is a continuum that is a function of the genotype, phenotype and niche space.



A brief overview. Introduction to Smith’s ‘Evolution and the Theory of Games’ (1)

I like how Smith acknowledges that much of this is speculative, philosophical, cannot be tested, and has challenges.

I'd like to reason about those challenges. I'd also like to acknowledge that I find a lot of this intriguing, as there is no doubt a "game" and altruism in the reality of life.

Altruism is a behaviour whereby an organism acts in a manner that temporarily reduces its own fitness while increasing another organism's fitness, with the expectation that the other organism will act in a similar manner at a later time. (Tit for tat-reciprocal altruism.) However, can this be viewed as altruism? It is selfish when an organism does something with expectation of something in return. Wouldn't that be considered vain? So it still, simply is the case and not the case based upon how altruism is defined and used. Cooperation/altruism is being viewed as selfishness. How would an organism predict/know/have expectation that they'd be taken care of at a future time? This is blind faith being incorporated with ESS/game theory.

The transfer of information during contests, Smith acknowledges as his biggest concern. The initial, being.. how did these rules evolve? What/who makes the rules? It's easy to say that genes are very powerful and do all of the work, but genes are useless without an organism/self/individual making them useful. Acting upon, understanding, and performing the transfer of information. Essentially, a shaper and executor of the information. It requires that an organism be capable of assessing the degree of relatedness to an individual before acting resulting in concepts that must extend beyond the immediate genetic relationship to include other organisms where future genetic exchange may occur, including environment. This is not to mention, that an individual/self is always and gradually changing its own innate genetic constitution in correlation with the base of genetic constitution that cannot be altered/changed. This also applies to information in genetics, what/who wrote this information? Did it accidentally program/write itself? Is it an innate/built in mechanism mirroring itself?

When I also try and look into inclusive fitness examples.... there are only "some." I also find that in reality, this is not always the case amongst the wide array of diversity. It would seem as a shortcut is being taken. That since there are a few examples in certain species, they "demand" that it must be for all species.

Game theory and ESS are interesting perspectives, and not wrong. However, it does not fully describe the world that we see. (Or at least not all of us.) It describes within limitations, and small portions of reality. It predicts that cooperation should be rare in nature, when in fact we find cooperation wherever we look, and not just among kin.

You also asked for references, but they are visible all around you. Also, the measure of what constitutes "relatedness" is of a large dispute amongst "biologists." I can say that many on this thread are a group, not related in kin, and are fighting for the survival of ideologies(certain aspects of evolutionary theory). Even you and I, not related in kin, and share disagreement on many aspects, can cooperate. This is also highly evident in nature, genetic variance as well as different species cooperating.

I'm not sure when they say altruism started to evolve, but altruism would have been clearly evident given what they also say about the earliest forms of life, undergoing environmental change. Therefore, altruism was there from the very start of life.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Actually no need for selection, the good ones that came by randomness will pass
it to the next generations, basically it's based on randomness and chances.
which is required
because the earth to be the habitat it is....
everything must move

the ocean
the sky
the ground

all in random, and we must survive it
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So what pre-existing life did God come from?

As the originator of life...he is the source of all things living. He is uncreated, immortal and infinite in power and wisdom. Do you know of anything in the material universe that can match that description? I can tell you "who" God is, but no one can tell you "what" he is. His written word tells us what we need to know for now....but not always what we'd like to know....that may come later when our knowledge is expanded and our brain capacity can cope.

Perhaps when you encounter him, you might like to ask for his credentials......I'm sure you'll be impressed. :)
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
go deeper......
at some point there was no animal life as we know it

At some point (as Genesis tells us) there was no Earth as we know it. It was a "formless waste" in its early history and God prepared the land and the oceans for habitation. There is no deeper place to go than the beginning. Even the universe had a beginning...so there was once a time that the universe did not exist....but the Creator did.

supposedly, we share 50% of our genetics......with plants

If the same powerful Creator used the same raw materials to construct life in all its various forms, it is no surprise that we are similar in our basic structure to other life forms. Matter came into existence by the power of the Creator. He formed matter into all that we can see.

But we are not accidents of evolution....we are purposefully made with all the traits and characteristics that make us who we are among the myriads of living creatures on this planet. We alone possess the Creator's qualities and can exercise our free will using our unique brains to imagine and plan and conceptualize the future. We are not pre-programmed like the animals....who operate largely by instinct....we can choose a course in full knowledge of possible consequences. No other living thing can do that.

Our planet is perfect in its positioning from the sun, the speed of its rotation, the tilt of its axis and in the makeup of the gases that form our atmosphere. Vegetation breathes out, what we breath in and vice versa. All the things that make Earth the "Goldilocks" planet were not accidental. They were planned and beautifully executed. It is humans who have messed things up....

Everything we see in nature suggests the work of an Intelligent Designer.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
At some point (as Genesis tells us) there was no Earth as we know it. It was a "formless waste" in its early history and God prepared the land and the oceans for habitation. There is no deeper place to go than the beginning. Even the universe had a beginning...so there was once a time that the universe did not exist....but the Creator did.

Actually the universe as we know it had a beginning. Still no evidence of a creator, or even the need of one.

If the same powerful Creator used the same raw materials to construct life in all its various forms, it is no surprise that we are similar in our basic structure to other life forms. Matter came into existence by the power of the Creator. He formed matter into all that we can see.[/quote[
The problem is that life shows evidence of evolution, none of a an omniscient creator, in fact it shows signs that if that creator existed that he was a far from perfect creator. We can see all sorts of bad engineering that exist in life that only exists because once something evolved going backwards would mean extinction. Going forward is usually the only option in evolution.

But we are not accidents of evolution....we are purposefully made with all the traits and characteristics that make us who we are among the myriads of living creatures on this planet. We alone possess the Creator's qualities and can exercise our free will using our unique brains to imagine and plan and conceptualize the future. We are not pre-programmed like the animals....who operate largely by instinct....we can choose a course in full knowledge of possible consequences. No other living thing can do that.

Once again with the false "accidents" claim. As a Christian you are bearing false witness when you make this claim. It would be wise not to make it again. The Ninth Commandment not only applies to lies, but also to statements made against others that that Christian cannot support. We see this so often when going against creationists that a phrase to cover people like Gish, Hovind, Ham, and Comfort is used quite often. They are all liars for Jesus. This is not a wise debating strategy.

Our planet is perfect in its positioning from the sun, the speed of its rotation, the tilt of its axis and in the makeup of the gases that form our atmosphere. Vegetation breathes out, what we breath in and vice versa. All the things that make Earth the "Goldilocks" planet were not accidental. They were planned and beautifully executed. It is humans who have messed things up....

Everything we see in nature suggests the work of an Intelligent Designer.

Nope it isn't. It is good but hardly "perfect: and the Goldilocks zone is much larger than you were led to believe. Of course life could only evolve on such a planet.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
What is to understand?

Here is an oversimplified example. Say that there is an organism that eats food off of a tree that is three to five feet tall. When born the organism, like horses, deer, etc. can stand at birth. This animal has a neck that does not bend. It can only eat what is direction in front of it. Animals that are born that are less than three feet tall will not be able to eat and will die. If the animal keeps growing and gets taller than five feet it will die. We already have simple selection for height. Now evolution takes into account that there is both natural selection and variation in the real world. So back to our make believe organism. Let's say that something happens to the tree it eats and it changes the height that it produces food at. It begins to make food at higher and higher levels. It slowly changes from producing food from 3 to 5 feet above the ground to 4 to 6 feet above the ground. Luckily our pretend species has variation too. Some of its offspring will be able to eat at higher levels when born. They will continue to survive. And those that grow a bit taller will be able to survive and pass on their genes.

Variation along with natural selection are the keys to understanding evolution. If someone focuses on only one then only poor arguments against evolution will be given.


First the organism should work perfectly before being able to survive and to pass the genes
to the next generations, selection has no meaning and doesn't provide a logical answer for
how the organism was made to function.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
ID creationism is dead.....has been for quite some time now

Maybe in the circles you mix in.....but its certainly not dead in the wider community, especially among those who haven't lost faith in God, and the many who have regained it after discovering how little science actually has to support its theory.
There are over 8 million JW's in the world and none of them think its dead. There are many more. I think the USA is one of the last bastions of creationism with around half the population still believing in God as the Creator of all things. It isn't science...its faith. You guys treat science as if it were your religion.

It was crafted as a means to subvert court rulings and get creationist talking points into classrooms, and the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial put an end to that. Put that together with fact that it never accomplished a single thing scientifically and there's only one conclusion to reach....it's dead.

It was taught in classrooms for decades before evolutionists wore down the educators. Evolution was only introduced into school science in the 60's. Its been around for about 5 minutes on the world timescale.

Accomplishing things "scientifically" seems to be a fixation among the members of the science community.....but no one seems to mention all the harm that science has accomplished "scientifically" over the last 100 years. Not much to gloat over if you ask me.

images
images


Weigh the good against the bad and the bad wins hands down since it threatens life itself in many ways. It isn't ID creationism that is dead....its science being responsible for most of the unnecessary deaths on this planet. Think of all the ways that science has contributed to the design of heinous weapons, the misuse of earth's resources (like uranium and oil) and the continual pollution of the air, water and land because of the wonders of scientific achievement. Your pride is misplaced methinks. o_O

You should probably let it go, drop the facade, and just argue for straight up Biblical creationism.

And still after all the prompting, there is still no evidence forthcoming from you to support your theory.
There is a way to settle this argument once and for all.....will the scientists here please present to the readers here substantiated evidence for macro-evolution that does not rely on inference, suggestion of belief. It cannot be based on adaptation unless you have proof that macro-evolution can be demonstrated beyond what is observable in a lab.

Over to you.....:D
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
This is not just over simplified, it is simply incorrect. First of all parts are not connected by randomness, no plans and no design, their connections are all selected for on the basis of functioning. Additionally, the TVs reproduce themselves as a average of two existing and working sets, with some small additional variation thrown in for good measure.

Selection comes next, so it's meaningless, the question is how it worked first before being selected?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Therefore, God is an example of a life form that didn't come from previous life. Ergo, your rule is debunked.

Since it only applies to biological creatures on Earth, the rule remains true. It is one of the few scientific facts that is provable. Life does not pop into existence all by itself.....life on earth comes from a source of pre-existing life.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Perhaps you might like to tidy up that post or at least proof read it a bit before posting it.
Why? There was nothing wrong with the little bit that you quoted. Did you not understand it? I can help you if you ask questions.

The universe as we know it began with the Big Bang. As of now we can't see any evidence for anything before the Big Bang. In fact "Before the Big Bang may be a nonsensical phrase, though not all physicists seem to think so.

You do realize that the universe coming from "nothing" does not violate any of the laws of physics, don't you? There is no need for a creator to make the universe. If a creator was needed then you need an even more powerful creator to make that creator etc. and so on. It is better to work with what we can see and measure than to create an endless series of creators to explain it.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I wasn't aware that special pleading was necessary. I was making the point that earthly life has to spring from an already existing life.....do you deny this?
That's not what you wrote earlier. You said the rule was "All life comes from pre-existing life" and that "The Creator is the lifeform from which all other life originated", implying that the creator is a lifeform and therefore subject to this rule.

Why did you change it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top