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Just Accidental?

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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am quite well aware of these excellent examples of convergent evolution and co-evolution. They are routinely discussed and taught as examples of the power of the evolutionary process. We know the genetic history of how these plants mutated to produce flowers of increasingly specific shapes to match with specific pollinators. Do you really want the analysis of science on the emergence and evolution of flowers? I can create an entire thread on this topic. But apparently you get bored by all the details! Pretty pictures are all you want.

I don't pretend to be a scientist, but from what I have observed in lengthy studies trying to promote the workings of evolution, we always come up to the same roadblock. Science does not have the proof that I demand to prove that evolution is true. We see adaptation very clearly, but only within species. I do not see any proof of organic evolution at all. That is the fiction.

I cannot provide proof to you of the existence of my Creator, but to me I have as much proof, if not more, that evolution is the real fairy story.
You have a "belief" system just as much as I do. You believe your teachers...I believe mine....You believe their interpretations....I believe in the interpretation of my teachers.
Science is the basis for your "religion"....the Bible is the basis for mine. I see no superiority in yours over mine.
I can incorporate science in my beliefs, but you cannot incorporate ID in yours. Impasse. :shrug:
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I don't pretend to be a scientist, but from what I have observed in lengthy studies trying to promote the workings of evolution, we always come up to the same roadblock. Science does not have the proof that I demand to prove that evolution is true.
Just what would constitute the proof you demand?

I cannot provide proof to you of the existence of my Creator, but to me I have as much proof, if not more, that evolution is the real fairy story.
So, what is your " much proof" that evolution is the real fairy story?

Science is the basis for your "religion"
Curious; what is your definition of "religion"?


.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't pretend to be a scientist, but from what I have observed in lengthy studies trying to promote the workings of evolution, we always come up to the same roadblock. Science does not have the proof that I demand to prove that evolution is true. We see adaptation very clearly, but only within species. I do not see any proof of organic evolution at all. That is the fiction.

You have never specified what type of evidence would convince you about the truth of the scientific theory of evolution. By the way you speak, you reject all natural processes that cannot be completely seen by the human eye either because they are too slow and too big (evolution, continental drift, mountain building, ice age, star formation..) or too fast and too small (internal structure of molecules, atoms and nucleus, vacuum fluctuations of virtual particles, creation and elimination of quarks and other elementary particles in particle accelerators, neutrinos etc.) or just plain invisible (force fields, electromagnetic and quantum fields, wavefunctions, dark matter and dark energy) . Well..that rules almost all of science, for science was developed in order to investigate precisely those phenomena that are out of the reach of ordinary human perception, to reach behind the surface structure of nature.

The only thing I see is that you reject the entire methodology of science by which it establishes reality and its features in its entirely. So what is left there to say? Just state that you reject this human project of science pioneered by Galileo, Newton, Lavoisier, Francis Bacon and others and be done with it.

I cannot provide proof to you of the existence of my Creator, but to me I have as much proof, if not more, that evolution is the real fairy story.
The proof is...pretty pictures? o_O

You have a "belief" system just as much as I do. You believe your teachers...I believe mine....You believe their interpretations....I believe in the interpretation of my teachers.
Science is the basis for your "religion"....the Bible is the basis for mine. I see no superiority in yours over mine.
I can incorporate science in my beliefs, but you cannot incorporate ID in yours. Impasse. :shrug:

Your complete inability to incorporate science in your beliefs has been very well demonstrated here. Why would I need to incorporate ID. I am a Hindu and our philosophy/theology finds the specific details of the emergence and trajectory of life on earth to be of peripheral interest. Evolution goes quite fine with Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism and other Eastern religions and worldviews and is increasingly accepted by Christians worldwide (Catholics, Mainline Protestants, Orthodox Church). Your group's inability to accept the truths of the Nature simply is a flaw in your ideas of religion and God. Nothing to do with either science or with religion and theology in general.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Cures are much harder to produce than drugs that act on cells in our bodies. That’s why cures are hard to come by.

So you agree that synthesization doesn’t necessarily reduce a drug’s potency?

That wasn't the point....I think that something like cannabis would likely work to replace many of their current drugs. I don't trust 'big pharma' to pass on the full efficacy of the drug if it means losing profit on the others. We can already see the pressure brought to bear on legislation here so far. Only when doctors have exhausted all other avenues, can they prescribe cannabis even for kids with severe epilepsy. That speaks for itself IMV.

If what you say is true, then they should be in favour of selling medical cannabis . Cannabis isn’t a cure for anything either.
That isn't what the anecdotal evidence is telling us. Many of the big drug companies manufacturing medicinal cannabis will ensure that their profit margins are not affected. We will pay.....one way or another.

I have to correct myself on the name of the company. It’s actually called Phyto Extractions. The stuff they produce is fantastic, I have to say. And reasonably priced.

I urge you to petition your government for the changes you are looking for. And make your votes count. It wasn’t too long ago that we had a government that wanted to strengthen and enforce marijuana laws in this country, despite the fact that the majority of people wanted it decriminalized or completely legal. Now we have one that wants to legalize marijuana.

I think those who are advocating for medicinal cannabis are drowned out by the nay-sayers and those who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. The stalling tactics we see are appalling when so much suffering could be alleviated very quickly. The people who really need it are not getting it......but why is soul destroying.

Our Prime Minister uses those exact arguments when making his case for marijuana legalization and regulation. I’ve always agreed with that long before he came along.

My son has an inherited genetic disorder for which cannabis would be most helpful in the future. In fact there are quite a few members of my family and close friends who would benefit from this medicine right now.

It’s heartbreaking.

My dad was a very private person, not very good with talking about his feelings and such, so I was never able to get to the bottom of his issues. Though we never stopped trying. He ended up getting addicted to prescription painkillers after a terrible car accident and then he moved onto the harder drugs when those stopped working, and that eventually ended up killing him. Just to give you an idea of where I’m coming from.

I had no personal contact with alcoholics until I became a teacher of the Bible. Now, having helped a few to overcome their addiction, I understand what a daily struggle it is and how easily their 'demons' can come back to haunt them. Its a day to day battle. Seeing people in their thirties and forties drink themselves to death is a tragedy. Each of them have a story that would break your heart.

Actually the funny thing is, nicotine actually does have some benefits. It has been shown to enhance motor and cognitive functions. And some researchers are looking into the possibility of using drugs that stimulate nicotinic receptors to treat Alzheimer’s disease.

If it produced no good effects, no one would bother with it. Its the pay-back that is hard to deal with. The repercussions come back and bite hard sometimes.

I think a lot of people actually want to ban tobacco and alcohol, but the big debacle with Prohibition kind of puts the kibosh on those ideas.
People will not give up their drugs.....imagine if they banned caffiene!
stormcloud.gif
:coffee: :facepalm:

Who is lobbying against it?

Those with a vested interest in the present system.


I wish I could set that up for you.

Feel free to come visit our country anytime.
I tell you what....if I ever need medicinal cannabis, I will certainly consider a visit. We are fellow members of the Commonwealth you know....under her Madge and all that.
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Unfortunately anecdotes aren’t enough. These claims need to be demonstrated in a more scientific manner than that. It’s just not ethical to claim it cures cancer when there aren’t enough positive results to lead to that conclusion.

"Ethical"? I have a problem with that attitude. If something works and it does no harm, why demand an explanation?
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Find one if you want to, but don't withhold until you do.

Even if its a placebo, who cares as long as the person is feeling better? Would you prevent them from getting the sugar pill if it was making them well? Would you prevent them from accessing medicinal cannabis just because it wasn't "scientifically" proven? Isn't the fact "that" it works more important that "how or why" it works? :shrug:

Hopefully the loosening on marijuana restrictions will lead to more studies and hopefully some positive results. There are some studies on its effectiveness in treating cancer, but like I said, they are inconclusive thus far. (I looked into this when my grandfather was dying from prostate cancer.) Some studies show it reducing tumour growth and some show it increasing tumour growth or having no effect at all. Then there are issues with dosage, possible drug interactions and its effects on different types of cancers. There’s a lot that still needs to be worked on.

Access is all anyone is asking. Let them try it at least....I can't understand why that is asking too much?
If they accept full responsibility, what is the harm? It is a lot less harmful than most of the current legal drugs on the market.

I know I would sign any waver if they would just allow me to grow it for a trial. I have so many people in my immediate circle that would benefit right now, but they are losing hope because of the time it takes to get anything through the red tape.
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Just what would constitute the proof you demand?

A lot more than what is currently provided.

So, what is your " much proof" that evolution is the real fairy story?

Actual proof that one species transformed into a completely different one. An amphibian is not proof of an intermediate species between water and land.....it is proof that there is diversity in creation.

Curious; what is your definition of "religion"?

The belief system by which you judge your life and the lives of those around you.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
A lot more than what is currently provided.
In other words, you don't know yourself what would constitute the proof you demand.
headshake.gif
You know how sad this is?


Actual proof that one species transformed into a completely different one. An amphibian is not proof of an intermediate species between water and land.....it is proof that there is diversity in creation.
No! No! No! You said:

"I [Deeje] have as much proof, if not more, that evolution is the real fairy story."

And I'm asking what this proof is that you say you have "that evolution is the real fairy story"?


The belief system by which you judge your life and the lives of those around you.
Which would obviously include Communism, Fascism, Humanism White Supremacy, Atheism, Libertarianism, Free Thinkers, Scientology, Rationalism, Ethical Culturalism.

And by-the-by, just what is my religion, the one you say is based on science?


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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You have never specified what type of evidence would convince you about the truth of the scientific theory of evolution. By the way you speak, you reject all natural processes that cannot be completely seen by the human eye either because they are too slow and too big (evolution, continental drift, mountain building, ice age, star formation..) or too fast and too small (internal structure of molecules, atoms and nucleus, vacuum fluctuations of virtual particles, creation and elimination of quarks and other elementary particles in particle accelerators, neutrinos etc.) or just plain invisible (force fields, electromagnetic and quantum fields, wavefunctions, dark matter and dark energy) . Well..that rules almost all of science, for science was developed in order to investigate precisely those phenomena that are out of the reach of ordinary human perception, to reach behind the surface structure of nature.
I don't believe I have ever said I reject science. I reject organic evolution, which is only one branch of science.
I differentiate between what science truly knows and what it thinks it might know.
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The only thing I see is that you reject the entire methodology of science by which it establishes reality and its features in its entirely. So what is left there to say? Just state that you reject this human project of science pioneered by Galileo, Newton, Lavoisier, Francis Bacon and others and be done with it.
I reject suggestions being presented as facts. The methodology, when it comes to evolution, is sadly lacking in any convincing explanation for the interpretation of said evidence. "Because I said so" is hardly a reason to believe anything.

The proof is...pretty pictures? o_O

The pretty pictures are confronting aren't they? Its hard to stick to your guns in the face of what you can actually see.
Its harder to pretend that they are accidental or unintentional when they are staring you in the face.
What in those pictures can be laid at the feet of undirected chance? Not a thing that I can see.
confused.gif


Your complete inability to incorporate science in your beliefs has been very well demonstrated here.

The fact that you are still trying to defend your science tells me otherwise. I have demonstrated to believers that evolution is not what science suggests at all. It has so many flaws and missing pieces that the puzzle is still unsolved by them. The picture is totally incomplete unless you consult the diagrams and the graphics they rely on to fill in those missing pieces.
That is not evidence based science, it is supposition and conjecture masquerading as science.
images

Theories are fine....just don't pretend that they are evidence-based facts.

Why would I need to incorporate ID. I am a Hindu and our philosophy/theology finds the specific details of the emergence and trajectory of life on earth to be of peripheral interest. Evolution goes quite fine with Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism and other Eastern religions and worldviews and is increasingly accepted by Christians worldwide (Catholics, Mainline Protestants, Orthodox Church).

It doesn't take much to sell out to popular opinion. Human nature is prone to a mob mentality. Its what got Jesus killed you know. Just because your belief system can incorporate evolution, doesn't mean mine has to. You chose your position....I have chosen mine. I have never been one to run with the mob.

Your group's inability to accept the truths of the Nature simply is a flaw in your ideas of religion and God. Nothing to do with either science or with religion and theology in general.
Either that, or it is my groups ability to see past the colossal con job being perpetrated on humanity at this point in time by those who want God to go away.
I do not see the true God in any orthodox religion today.....I see humans putting themselves and their own wants and desires above what benefits humankind in general, with very little thought about what God thinks at all.

The world is at this moment being plunged into a situation where no one actually knows what will happen next.
I rely on the Bible to tell me and I can assure you that we will all meet God in the person of his Christ in the not too distant future. You can believe that or not.

I have meaning in my life, I have meaning in my spiritual path and I have meaning for the world's present state. I also have a positive view of what will happen in the future....none of it will be the will of man. The path is already mapped and the steps are already being taken to ensure the finale takes place just as the Bible foretells. If people don't want to know about that....then that is OK too. Our future is dictated by the choices we make right now of our own free will.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't believe I have ever said I reject science. I reject organic evolution, which is only one branch of science.
I differentiate between what science truly knows and what it thinks it might know.
confused.gif
I noticed that you again refused to tell what precisely you want in the fossil record of past life that will convince you of evolution. I notice too that you are currently ignoring the fact that you have repeatedly said here that unless a thing is directly observed, its not science. Well, that rules 90% of all sciences out (force fields, atoms, ...) . Your position is the rejection of the entire scientific enterprise, whether you acknowledge it or not.
The pretty pictures are confronting aren't they? Its hard to stick to your guns in the face of what you can actually see.
Its harder to pretend that they are accidental or unintentional when they are staring you in the face.
What in those pictures can be laid at the feet of undirected chance? Not a thing that I can see.
confused.gif
Actually those pictures are completely trivial and uninformative. There is nothing at all in those pictures that tells me anything about design or creator whatsoever. I only see entities that have emerged out of natural processes of the universe in those pictures, nothing else.

The fact that you are still trying to defend your science tells me otherwise. I have demonstrated to believers that evolution is not what science suggests at all. It has so many flaws and missing pieces that the puzzle is still unsolved by them. The picture is totally incomplete unless you consult the diagrams and the graphics they rely on to fill in those missing pieces.
That is not evidence based science, it is supposition and conjecture masquerading as science.

You have demonstrated nothing. All you have done is to paste pictures of birds and animals and stated that the most important method of presenting scientific conclusions and data, through figures and charts, is apparently unscientific! Wow!
Ever heard of MATLAB , EXCEL, Prism, Origin ? Presenting data and predictions of scientific theories in the form of graphs and curves is one of the main tasks of scientific work in all fields!


Theories are fine....just don't pretend that they are evidence-based facts.

A scientific theory is the central pillar of science. Atomic theory, Germ theory, Big Bang Theory, Quantum Theory, Theory of Special and General Relativity, Kinetic Theory, Plate Tectonic Theory, Information Theory, Theory of Evolution.....Scientific Theories are what science says Reality is like given the evidence it has.



It doesn't take much to sell out to popular opinion. Human nature is prone to a mob mentality. Its what got Jesus killed you know. Just because your belief system can incorporate evolution, doesn't mean mine has to. You chose your position....I have chosen mine. I have never been one to run with the mob.
No. You seem to be running with the fundamentalist fringe.


Either that, or it is my groups ability to see past the colossal con job being perpetrated on humanity at this point in time by those who want God to go away.
Nah. Conspiracy theories of the fundamentalist fringe. You are deluded my friend.

I do not see the true God in any orthodox religion today.....I see humans putting themselves and their own wants and desires above what benefits humankind in general, with very little thought about what God thinks at all.

The world is at this moment being plunged into a situation where no one actually knows what will happen next.
I rely on the Bible to tell me and I can assure you that we will all meet God in the person of his Christ in the not too distant future. You can believe that or not.
I do not see God in your religion as well. Any religion that denies the nature of Reality denies God. Simple.

I have meaning in my life, I have meaning in my spiritual path and I have meaning for the world's present state.
So do I . It is richer than what you have because you choose to remain blind to much of the natural reality that adds so much depth to this meaning and the path. I have the best of both worlds. Nature and transcendent together :)

I also have a positive view of what will happen in the future....none of it will be the will of man. The path is already mapped and the steps are already being taken to ensure the finale takes place just as the Bible foretells. If people don't want to know about that....then that is OK too. Our future is dictated by the choices we make right now of our own free will.
Nothing of what Bible says (and that's all very vague by the way) will come to pass. Why? Because the Bible is mostly wrong about both this world and anything that may exist beyond it. There's one solid fact for you.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I noticed that you again refused to tell what precisely you want in the fossil record of past life that will convince you of evolution.
What I find amazing is that evolutionists can get all excited about a fossil found on one continent and another, on a different continent, supposedly millions of years apart and it is "suggested" that this later one "must have" evolved from the earlier one because.....they have a similar anatomical structure? If evolution is true I would expect to see many transitional forms between one and the other displaying the evolutionary changes that are suggested. There is nothing linking one to the other apart from the scientist's imagination.
Same old tune.......
sadviolin.gif


I notice too that you are currently ignoring the fact that you have repeatedly said here that unless a thing is directly observed, its not science.

You are putting words in my mouth...I have never said that.

Well, that rules 90% of all sciences out (force fields, atoms, ...) . Your position is the rejection of the entire scientific enterprise, whether you acknowledge it or not.
That is not true. I worship the originator of what science is. Without the world and the universe, what would there be for science to study and understand?

Actually those pictures are completely trivial and uninformative. There is nothing at all in those pictures that tells me anything about design or creator whatsoever. I only see entities that have emerged out of natural processes of the universe in those pictures, nothing else.
I am not surprised.
ermm.gif
Natural processes...no intelligent direction....just millions and millions of beneficial mutations over millions and millions of years.....yep.

You have demonstrated nothing.
Neither have you. You have chosen your position and that is a good thing.
There is really not much more to say that is not yet another rehash.
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All you have done is to paste pictures of birds and animals and stated that the most important method of presenting scientific conclusions and data, through figures and charts, is apparently unscientific! Wow!
Ever heard of MATLAB , EXCEL, Prism, Origin ? Presenting data and predictions of scientific theories in the form of graphs and curves is one of the main tasks of scientific work in all fields!

Its not the data so much as the predictions.....if the data backed up the predictions.... that would be something, but the data is forced to to match the predictions through nothing more concrete than the suggestions. I predict that you will have a headache after you read this......will I have to hit you over the head to make it come true? That is what science does with "evidence" for evolution. Without the elaborate explanations forcing the "suggestions" and the "might have's" and the "could have's" to fit the pre-conceived idea.....what are we left with? No provable facts.

Conspiracy theories of the fundamentalist fringe. You are deluded my friend.
You are free to think so.
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I do not see God in your religion as well. Any religion that denies the nature of Reality denies God. Simple.
You have no God in your religion so are you not denying him too? My reality is not your reality.
The nature of my reality is what I can see with my own eyes...hear with my own ears...touch with my own hands.....and smell with my own nose.....
flowers-014.gif


It is richer than what you have because you choose to remain blind to much of the natural reality that adds so much depth to this meaning and the path. I have the best of both worlds. Nature and transcendent together

That is wonderful. Making choices is what it is all about at this juncture. I wish you well on the path you have chosen....just be careful that its not a dead end.

Nothing of what Bible says (and that's all very vague by the way) will come to pass. Why? Because the Bible is mostly wrong about both this world and anything that may exist beyond it. There's one solid fact for you.
If you say so. Let's see.....shall we? No point in
deadhorse.gif
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Why do you keep claiming they're dishonest? (You mean, like piltdown man? Or Haeckel's drawings?)

They have been caught quoting-mining, a fallacy, for years and still do it while maintain quotes that have been exposed as quoting-mining. So either they are dishonest and/or incompetent.

Don't just say it, give me some evidence! Like I provided to you just now.

I told you go look up the sources they quote and read the actual source for yourself days ago.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Then this....



Doublespeak.
Come on, dude!
It would have been nice if you had left the context of these quotes in tact. What's with that?

What I was saying was that it would be extremely easy to falsify evolution. All one would have to do is find a rabbit fossil in precambrian rocks (or some other fossil completely out of place), which is the example I think I gave before. If you could demonstrate that DNA isn't hereditary, or that mutations don't occur, that would also do it.

The fact that nobody has been able to falsify evolution as of yet, despite how easy it would actually be to do and despite the number of creationists in existence who would love to do just that, is quite telling.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
:shrug:
What I find amazing is that evolutionists can get all excited about a fossil found on one continent and another, on a different continent, supposedly millions of years apart and it is "suggested" that this later one "must have" evolved from the earlier one because.....they have a similar anatomical structure? If evolution is true I would expect to see many transitional forms between one and the other displaying the evolutionary changes that are suggested. There is nothing linking one to the other apart from the scientist's imagination.
Same old tune.......
sadviolin.gif

You have not explained this objection of yours at all. All the ancient-ape to human transitions come from Africa. The Giraffe transitions come from Eurasia. Most of the transitions from fish to amphibians come from a Greenland, Canadian Arctic and North America. All land-animal to whale fossils come from South Asia. Africa and Asia are connected and have many animals in common (African and Indian lions, elephant. There were European lions as well before humans hunted them down). So what is the objection here?

The pace of evolution (based on experimental mutation rates I presented earlier) is predicted to create vertebrate species with observable anatomical difference from ancestral forms every 1-2 millions years. All the 5-6 fish to amphibian fossils occur in a 15 million year span (380-365 mya) and all the 15 types of ape-human transition fossils occur in a 8 million year span. There isn't any big gaps anywhere.

You seem to have been under the mistaken impression that the transitional forms presented are the ONLY fossils around. They are not. Take a look at this figure again
F5.large.jpg


http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/2/10/150393

How many species? 11. All in Eurasia. How much time? 18 million years. And this is only a selection of giraffe fossil species. Many more have been found over this time period.

Your objection is ..what?



You are putting words in my mouth...I have never said that.
And yet just a few sentences after you say this..again
My reality is not your reality.
The nature of my reality is what I can see with my own eyes...hear with my own ears...touch with my own hands.....and smell with my own nose.....
flowers-014.gif
How is this not tantamount to rejecting everything in science that cannot be fully observed directly by the senses?:shrug:
You are indeed saying that things that occur too slowly (or too fast) or are not fully observable are not part of science. If not, feel free to expand on your criteria of science.


That is not true. I worship the originator of what science is. Without the world and the universe, what would there be for science to study and understand?
You are dodging the question. Science that is done in universities and laboratories and institutes like NASA and written in scientific journals is a human endeavor developed and practiced by humans like Francis Bacon, Newton, Lavoisier, Einstein, Darwin, Curie and others. Do you accept this specific science done in research labs, universities, published in journals like Nature and Science and used to develop our technology and medicine? Your criteria of direct observability fails badly (atoms, electrons, fields, wavefunctions, star formation ...). Science has never been about that at all. Its been about inferring the unobservable structure of reality connecting the apparently disjoint observables of experiment and experience. What one observables are objects falling, what one infers is the unobservable mathematical structure of the laws of gravity and the invisible curvatures of space-time. Anyone can observe things. Inferring the correct invisible connections of reality between them is why science is science and how scientists get Nobel Prize and other acclaims.
Do you accept this science above?



I am not surprised.
ermm.gif
Natural processes...no intelligent direction....just millions and millions of beneficial mutations over millions and millions of years.....yep.
Quite correct.


Neither have you. You have chosen your position and that is a good thing.
There is really not much more to say that is not yet another rehash.
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I have demonstrated lots. You failing to read it is not my problem.




Its not the data so much as the predictions.....if the data backed up the predictions.... that would be something, but the data is forced to to match the predictions through nothing more concrete than the suggestions.
So far you have only claimed this. Present an example of this so called forced matching and demonstrate the claim.




You have no God in your religion so are you not denying him too?
While Hindu beliefs diverge a lot, our concept of God differs from yours very significantly. Here is how one famous leader of ours put it (in 1893).
http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.i...at_the_parliament/v1_c1_paper_on_hinduism.htm

"If I may be allowed to use a simile, creation and creator are two lines, without beginning and without end, running parallel to each other. God is the ever active providence, by whose power systems after systems are being evolved out of chaos, made to run for a time and again destroyed. This is what the Brâhmin boy repeats every day: "The sun and the moon, the Lord created like the suns and moons of previous cycles.

We cannot deny that bodies acquire certain tendencies from heredity, but those tendencies only mean the physical configuration, through which a peculiar mind alone can act in a peculiar way. There are other tendencies peculiar to a soul caused by its past actions. And a soul with a certain tendency would by the laws of affinity take birth in a body which is the fittest instrument for the display of that tendency. This is in accord with science, for science wants to explain everything by habit, and habit is got through repetitions. So repetitions are necessary to explain the natural habits of a new-born soul. And since they were not obtained in this present life, they must have come down from past lives."





That is wonderful. Making choices is what it is all about at this juncture. I wish you well on the path you have chosen....just be careful that its not a dead end.
Its not.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@sayak83 This is what my teachers tell me......please let us know what parts of this information are incorrect.

"Fact: All scientific research indicates that life cannot spring from nonliving matter.
Question: What is the scientific basis for saying that the first cell sprang from nonliving chemicals?

Fact: Researchers have recreated in the laboratory the environmental conditions that they believe existed early in the earth’s history. In these experiments, a few scientists have manufactured some of the molecules found in living things.
Question: If the chemicals in the experiment represent the earth’s early environment and the molecules produced represent the building blocks of life, whom or what does the scientist who performed the experiment represent? Does he or she represent blind chance or an intelligent entity?

Fact: Protein and RNA molecules must work together for a cell to survive. Scientists admit that it is highly unlikely that RNA formed by chance. The odds against even one protein forming by chance are astronomical. It is exceedingly improbable that RNA and proteins should form by chance in the same place at the same time and be able to work together.
Question: What takes greater faith—to believe that the millions of intricately coordinated parts of a cell arose by chance or to believe that the cell is the product of an intelligent mind?


"Many scientists point to the fossil record as support for the idea that life emerged from a common origin. They argue,
for example, that the fossil record documents the notion that fish became amphibians and reptiles became mammals.
What, though, does the fossil evidence really show?

“Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life,” says evolutionary paleontologist David M. Raup, “what geologists of Darwin’s time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record.”

In reality, the vast majority of fossils show stability among types of creatures over extensive amounts of time. The evidence

does not show them evolving from one type into another. Unique body plans appear suddenly. New features appear suddenly. For example, bats with sonar and echolocation systems appear with no obvious link to a more primitive ancestor.
In fact, more than half of all the major divisions of animal life seem to have appeared in a relatively short period of time. Because many new and distinct life forms appear so suddenly in the fossil record, paleontologists refer to this period asthe Cambrian explosion.” When was the Cambrian period?

Let us assume that the estimates of researchers are accurate. In that case, the history of the earth could be represented by a time line that stretches the length of a soccer field (1). At that scale, you would have to walk about seven eighths of the way down the field before you would come to what paleontologists call the Cambrian period (2). During a small segment of that period, the major divisions of animal life show up in the fossil record. How suddenly do they appear?

As you walk down the soccer field, all those different creatures pop up in the space of less than one step!
The relatively sudden appearance of these diverse life forms is causing some evolutionary researchers to question the traditional version of Darwin’s theory.
"

"What, though, of the fossils that are used to show fish changing into amphibians, and reptiles into mammals? Do they provide solid proof of evolution in action? Upon closer inspection, several problems become obvious.
First, the comparative size of the creatures placed in the reptile-to-mammal sequence is sometimes misrepresented in textbooks. Rather than being similar in size, some creatures in the series are huge, while others are small.

A second, more serious challenge is the lack of proof that those creatures are somehow related.
Specimens placed in the series are often separated by what researchers estimate to be millions of years. Regarding
the time spans that separate many of these fossils, zoologist Henry Gee says: “The intervals of time that separate the fossils are so huge that we cannot say anything definite about their possible connection through ancestry and descent.”

Commenting on the fossils of fish and amphibians, biologist Malcolm S. Gordon states that the fossils found represent only a small, “possibly quite unrepresentative, sample of the biodiversity that existed in these groups at those times.” He further says: “There is no way of knowing to what extent, if at all, those specific organisms were relevant to later developments, or what their relationships might have been to each other.” (Excerpts from the brochure "Origins of Life" WTBTS)


Available to download here....
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/?start=48

If it would take an intelligent entity to create and program a computer, what would it take to create a living cell, let alone a human brain, which is, after all, a living computer? :shrug:

What your diagrams fail to present is any real connection between the species pictured. The "dots" connecting them are the product of imagination, not facts.

 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't pretend to be a scientist, but from what I have observed in lengthy studies trying to promote the workings of evolution, we always come up to the same roadblock. Science does not have the proof that I demand to prove that evolution is true. We see adaptation very clearly, but only within species. I do not see any proof of organic evolution at all. That is the fiction.
Science does not have proof that the earth circles the Sun, or that germs cause disease, either, but there is enough theoretical and empirical evidence that disbelief would be absurd. Same with the ToE.

We do see speciation, though it's usually a very long process that's difficult to observe, directly.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
Scroll down to part 5.

Science is the basis for your "religion"....the Bible is the basis for mine. I see no superiority in yours over mine.
I can incorporate science in my beliefs, but you cannot incorporate ID in yours. Impasse. :shrug:
Science is not a religion. It's a research modality. It has none of the features usually associated with religion.
ID is just an assertion of agency and magic. There's very little to 'incorporate', and even less supporting evidence.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Science does not have proof that the earth circles the Sun, or that germs cause disease, either, but there is enough theoretical and empirical evidence that disbelief would be absurd. Same with the ToE.

LOL....I have all the empirical evidence I need to demonstrate Intelligent Design, not a long process of chance mutations and blind evolutionary forces for which I see NO evidence whatsoever, but what my own eyes tell me....what the Bible tells me....and what my own logic tells me. You can choose the things that convince you. I have chosen mine.

We do see speciation, though it's usually a very long process that's difficult to observe, directly.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
Scroll down to part 5.

Speciation is an interesting topic. Variety of species within a Genesis "kind" is perfectly acceptable and compatible with what the Bible teaches, but science cannot prove that adaptation and variety go beyond genetic roadblocks to produce species that are completely unrelated. See my last post.

Science is not a religion. It's a research modality. It has none of the features usually associated with religion.
ID is just an assertion of agency and magic. There's very little to 'incorporate', and even less supporting evidence.

Science can be a substitute for religion, like a lot of other activities that people are passionate about.
The Bible describes it this way....."They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator".....this was written almost 2000 years ago, before people ever even thought of pursuing a theory that eliminated the existence of any gods.

The Bible explains a lot of things if you give it half a chance. It is grossly misrepresented along with its teachings and for the most part by the very ones who claim to believe it. o_O
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
LOL....I have all the empirical evidence I need to demonstrate Intelligent Design, not a long process of chance mutations and blind evolutionary forces for which I see NO evidence whatsoever, but what my own eyes tell me....what the Bible tells me....and what my own logic tells me. You can choose the things that convince you. I have chosen mine.
Empirical evidence of ID? Citation needed, please.
No-one's claiming any blind evolutionary forces, Deeje. Evolution's an orderly, systematic process of selection. It's not a roll of the dice. I'm sure this has been explained dozens of times in this interminable thread.
Speciation is an interesting topic. Variety of species within a Genesis "kind" is perfectly acceptable and compatible with what the Bible teaches, but science cannot prove that adaptation and variety go beyond genetic roadblocks to produce species that are completely are completely unrelated. See my last post.
How do the small, biblically acceptable changes know when to stop, so as not to produce new species? What are these "genetic roadblocks?" No-one's ever found any such thing.
See my link. Speciation happens.



Science can be a substitute for religion, like a lot of other activities that people are passionate about.
Science is a research methodology, it has no ethical doctrines, no liturgy, no commandments, no ceremonies.
Science is always changing and growing, nothing's carved in stone, everything's subject to revision.
Religion's a priori, science, a posterori.
A science text has a page in the front inviting readers to notify the author of any errors, omissions, &c. Each succeeding edition is different; improved. People are discouraged from criticising a religious scripture, and subsequent editions don't change, even when they contain well known errors.
Religion and science are polar opposites.
The Bible explains a lot of things if you give it half a chance. It is grossly misrepresented along with its teachings and for the most part by the very ones who claim to believe it. o_O
It does state a lot of things, but I don't see a lot of actual explanation in it,
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Empirical evidence of ID? Citation needed, please.

"Empirical evidence, also known as sense experience, is the knowledge or source of knowledge acquired by means of the senses, particularly by observation and experimentation. The term comes from the Greek word for experience, ἐμπειρία (empeiría)."

My "senses" are not swayed by the interpretation of "evidence" that could fall away tomorrow with the next big discovery.
Truth is not like that...it can't be true today but false tomorrow. If evolution is a theory, scientists need to call it that (in the dictionary definition of the word) and stop pretending that its fact just because science says so. Science can be dead wrong....as it has been proven to be so often.

No-one's claiming any blind evolutionary forces, Deeje. Evolution's an orderly, systematic process of selection. It's not a roll of the dice. I'm sure this has been explained dozens of times in this interminable thread.

And why is this thread still going if the visible "evidence" I have presented thus far is not convincing?
From my previous post....please address this....what does the "Cambrian explosion" mean in reality?

"In reality, the vast majority of fossils show stability among types of creatures over extensive amounts of time. The evidence
does not show them evolving from one type into another. Unique body plans appear suddenly. New features appear suddenly. For example, bats with sonar and echolocation systems appear with no obvious link to a more primitive ancestor.
In fact, more than half of all the major divisions of animal life seem to have appeared in a relatively short period of time. Because many new and distinct life forms appear so suddenly in the fossil record, paleontologists refer to this period asthe Cambrian explosion.” When was the Cambrian period?

Let us assume that the estimates of researchers are accurate. In that case, the history of the earth could be represented by a time line that stretches the length of a soccer field (1). At that scale, you would have to walk about seven eighths of the way down the field before you would come to what paleontologists call the Cambrian period (2). During a small segment of that period, the major divisions of animal life show up in the fossil record. How suddenly do they appear?
As you walk down the soccer field, all those different creatures pop up in the space of less than one step!
The relatively sudden appearance of these diverse life forms is causing some evolutionary researchers to question the traditional version of Darwin’s theory."


How do the small, biblically acceptable changes know when to stop, so as not to produce new species? What are these "genetic roadblocks?" No-one's ever found any such thing.
See my link. Speciation happens.
Since when has any experiment by scientists resulted in any species changing in form from the original?
The flies remained flies...the fish remained fish....the bacteria remained bacteria...and the plants remained plants. Species within "kinds"....this is what is observed in these experiments. Adaptation within species is not in question.

Science is a research methodology, it has no ethical doctrines, no liturgy, no commandments, no ceremonies.

We all know that in the various fields of science are some very big egos. There is an agenda and there is peer pressure and there is a push to gain funding as well as accolades from fellow academics. All of which is a potent mix...truth is easily lost in that environment....."I think" becomes "I know".

Science is always changing and growing, nothing's carved in stone, everything's subject to revision.
Religion's a priori, science, a posterori.

Which reinforces the reason why it should be presented as a theory and not taught to school children as fact.

A science text has a page in the front inviting readers to notify the author of any errors, omissions, &c. Each succeeding edition is different; improved. People are discouraged from criticising a religious scripture, and subsequent editions don't change, even when they contain well known errors.

You and I both know that any change is fiercely challenged. How many hoops are needed to be jumped through before any challenge to the status quo is accepted?

Religion and science are polar opposites.
That is only true if you have a mindset bogged down with that assumption. I can incorporate both, seeing the clear distinction between what is a fact and what is supposition or prediction. You need a machete though to chop through the jungle of interpretation.

It does state a lot of things, but I don't see a lot of actual explanation in it,

Research is the key to both as well as choosing your sources carefully so as to gain a broad view of the subject from both perspectives. This applies to both religion and science. I reject the false knowledge in both.
The Bible was not written as a science textbook but when it touches on matters of science, it is accurate.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
@sayak83 This is what my teachers tell me......please let us know what parts of this information are incorrect.

"Fact: All scientific research indicates that life cannot spring from nonliving matter.
Question: What is the scientific basis for saying that the first cell sprang from nonliving chemicals?


False.
As I have demonstrated in this thread earlier, scientists have already created living cells out of non-living matter. The details of the physics and chemistry of the life processes give scientists the confidence that under the right environment, life can emerge from non-living matter as inevitably as fire from dry wood.

Fact: Researchers have recreated in the laboratory the environmental conditions that they believe existed early in the earth’s history. In these experiments, a few scientists have manufactured some of the molecules found in living things.
Question: If the chemicals in the experiment represent the earth’s early environment and the molecules produced represent the building blocks of life, whom or what does the scientist who performed the experiment represent? Does he or she represent blind chance or an intelligent entity?
Neither.
The scientists simulate the conditions that are expected to occur naturally on early earth in the lab. Tropical rainforests occur naturally on the planet. But you can create one artificially in a greenhouse as well in places far away from the tropics. Similarly scientists are recreating the environments that were found in early earth in a small scale in the lab. Mimicking nature. That is all. When, such conditions produce chemicals found in life, it provides evidence that such chemicals were produced in the natural environments that these lab conditions were mimicking. This is no different than an engineer mimicking hurricane force conditions in a wind tunnel to check if a scaled model of a bridge is going to survive it. If it does, it provides evidence that the actual bridge will survive a natural hurricane of the same strength.



Fact: Protein and RNA molecules must work together for a cell to survive. Scientists admit that it is highly unlikely that RNA formed by chance. The odds against even one protein forming by chance are astronomical. It is exceedingly improbable that RNA and proteins should form by chance in the same place at the same time and be able to work together.
Question: What takes greater faith—to believe that the millions of intricately coordinated parts of a cell arose by chance or to believe that the cell is the product of an intelligent mind?
The latter, which is a wishful fantasy without evidence . Especially once one knows that RNA that can synthesize proteins has already been produced under conditions that are thought to be present in early earth. Evidence for a naturalistic origin of life continues to mount every day.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/rna-world-inches-closer-explaining-origins-life



"Many scientists point to the fossil record as support for the idea that life emerged from a common origin. They argue,
for example, that the fossil record documents the notion that fish became amphibians and reptiles became mammals.
What, though, does the fossil evidence really show?

“Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life,” says evolutionary paleontologist David M. Raup, “what geologists of Darwin’s time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record.”

Given the penchant of creationist sources like this to dishonestly quote mine scientists, you will have to provide the original source from where this quote was taken along with links. Otherwise I will ignore such out of context and misleading quotes completely.

In reality, the vast majority of fossils show stability among types of creatures over extensive amounts of time. The evidence
does not show them evolving from one type into another. Unique body plans appear suddenly. New features appear suddenly. For example, bats with sonar and echolocation systems appear with no obvious link to a more primitive ancestor.

Unfortunately for you discovery of new fossils have provided those evolutionary links.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2008/02/earliest-bat-fossil-reveals-transition-to-flight/
An ancestral form 52 million years old that was small, capable of gliding but still without the capabilities associated with echolocation, also showing clear linking to its mammalian ancestry (wing fingers end with claws).

So birds did not work, humans did not work, giraffes did not work, fish to amphibians did not work..now you are hoping that bats might do it. Sadly it does not. But do continue to try. There are millions of species and only a few thousand scientists, surely they have not covered all the species yet? Anything to justify irrational beliefs somehow...

I
n fact, more than half of all the major divisions of animal life seem to have appeared in a relatively short period of time. Because many new and distinct life forms appear so suddenly in the fossil record, paleontologists refer to this period asthe Cambrian explosion.” When was the Cambrian period?

False. The Cambrian period of speciation extended a full 50 million years and very very primitive ancestors of modern animal taxa emerge quite slowly over this period. I do not know about you, but 50 million years of diversification look gradual to me. The basic evolutionary innovation was the emergence of hard body parts, that allowed animals to form shells and skeletons. Before that animals existed as soft bodied creatures for at least 100 million years, mostly as ancestral sponges and jellyfish and softbodied worms. Once again, the illusion of sudden-ness was a false signal that has been erased as more fossils have been discovered.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...t-animals-sponges-earliest-science-evolution/
https://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S28/14/71M11/index.xml?section=topstories

Let us assume that the estimates of researchers are accurate. In that case, the history of the earth could be represented by a time line that stretches the length of a soccer field (1). At that scale, you would have to walk about seven eighths of the way down the field before you would come to what paleontologists call the Cambrian period (2). During a small segment of that period, the major divisions of animal life show up in the fossil record. How suddenly do they appear?
As you walk down the soccer field, all those different creatures pop up in the space of less than one step!
The relatively sudden appearance of these diverse life forms is causing some evolutionary researchers to question the traditional version of Darwin’s theory.
"
Wherever the quote is from, its completely outdated. The gradual evolution of animals spanning over 150 million years from Late Precambrian to the Cambrian has been documented well enough that all such doubts have been put to rest. Furthermore, geneticists have shown that the body form of a developing embroyo are dependent in a select few genes and that mutations in them causes body forms to alter dramatically quite easily. Thus for evolution, changing of animal's body shape is not difficult at all.
Cambrian explosion is exciting to a big group of paleontologists because they specialize in bones, and this is the first time they are finding bones. But objectively, its just another episode of evolutionary transformation like all that went before and after.

Continued in the next post............


 
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