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Just Accidental?

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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Improperly quoting someone is not what happened here. I did not put those words in his mouth. Please read them again.....

I’ve read it several times, thank you. You (or your source, more likely) misquoted George Simpson in such a way as to make it seem like he said the opposite of what he was actually saying. Read the entire quotation I provided (without cutting parts out like your source did), from start to finish and it becomes obvious.

The fossil record is anything but complete and you know it. If you listen to scientists, you'd think that they had all they needed to demonstrate that their theory is true without question, but that is simply not the case.
Scientists do have enough evidence from multiple fields of science to make a very robust case for evolution. That’s why it has been the prevailing scientific theory for as long as it has. We have much more evidence beyond the fossil record, which I’ve pointed out several times now.

Nobody ever expected to be able to find fossils for every creature that ever lived. It’s just not the way fossilization works. We do have enough evidence from the fossil record (along with piles of other evidence from genetics, geology, biogeography, paleobotany, etc.) to point to the existence of evolutionary processes, as George Simpson pointed out in 1953. Scientists have compiled much more evidence even since then.

The fossil record still lacks transitional species, as it always has.

Please explain what that means to you and what you think we should expect to find.

Linking one species to another is done by suggestion. But it is never "suggested" that a related species might have appeared just as suddenly in the strata as the later species by other means. There is nothing linking them but imagination and a will to force their evidence to fit their pre-conceived ideas.

No, no, no. You don’t get to just state this again. Not after several posts going back and forth where you’ve been shown that there is much, much more than mere “suggestion” involved.

What he said is very telling....see for yourself....

"In spite of these examples, it remains true, as every paleontologist knows, that most new species, genera, and families and that nearly all new categories above the level of families appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences. When paleontological collecting was still in its infancy and no clear examples of transitional origin had been found, most paleontologists were anti-evolutionists. Darwin (1859) recognized the fact that paleontology then seemed to provide evidence against rather than for evolution in general or the gradual origin of taxonomic characters in particular. Now we do have many examples of transitional sequences. Almost all paleontologists recognize that the discovery of a complete transition is in any case unlikely. Most of them find it logical, if not scientifically required, to assume that the sudden appearance of a new systematic group is not evidence for special creation or for saltation, but simply means that a full transitional sequence more or less like those that are known did occur and simply has not been found in this instance."

I’ve already gone over this. Read my last post and stop ignoring the 2 paragraphs that precede the one you keep quote mining. Those are the paragraphs where he lays out the evidence and the reasoning behind his conclusions. That’s why I provided those 2 paragraphs for you in the first place – because the one you provided is incomplete and removes the context.

Do you see the part that peer pressure plays in the promotion of evolution even today? How can it be "scientifically required" to "assume" that evolution is true? In every university it is "required" for evolution to be accepted as fact. Those "examples of transitional sequences" are not proven, but assumed. Assumption, conjecture and suggestion does not make anything true. It makes it a "theory" and no one would mind in the least if it was promoted as such, but we all know that it isn't.

He’s saying that paleontologists were convinced by the EVIDENCE and the logical conclusions that could be drawn from such evidence. Notice how he says when the evidence was lacking in the 19th century, paleotonologists were anti-evolutionists? It was the discovery of new EVIDENCE that changed their minds. That's how it works.

“Now we do have many examples of transitional sequences.”

Science is a competitive arena and scientists are quite happy to prove each other wrong. As I said, anyone (including creationists) who could manage to falsify evolution would most likely become a Nobel Prize winner because such a thing would turn all of science on its head.

Evolution is what science thinks might have happened.....but the truth is not really known by any measure that man currently has...everything is open to fall in a heap with the next 'discovery'. So how are evolutionist placed in any better position than those who advocate for Intelligent Design? We are in equal standing from my estimations.

Intelligent design is not a scientific theory, and I think you’ve thoroughly demonstrated in this thread that there is no empirical evidence backing it up. So no, they’re not even remotely equal. Even if evolution turns out to be false (which seems pretty unlikely), that doesn’t make intelligent design correct by default. It has to stand or fall on its own merits and that requires demonstrating it as rigorously as evolution has been demonstrated.

Evolution has been going strong as the best explanation for the diversity of life on earth for the last century. Why haven’t creationist been able to falsify it yet, if it’s so obviously wrong?
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I only have to look at the miracle of reproduction to know that all these babies are the product of design. All conceived and entered into the world in their own unique way. These are not unintentional accidents of blind evolution.

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Photographs of random creatures isn't evidence for intelligent design. Scientific standards are much higher than that, even if yours aren't.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
In reading through this article I see nothing but wishful thinking of something that might happen in the future if they can find enough "wellderly" people to study. "The hunt is on" was a dead giveaway......
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I completely disagree. What we see is not "loads" of "evidence" at all, but what we can clearly see is that the "load of evidence" is quite small and very inconclusive without a massive amount of interpretation. All I see is science forcing the evidence to fit the theory, rather than the other way around. .



"Vindicated by the fossil record"? The fossil record is pathetic, not only in its content, but in the wild imaginings of the evolutionary scientists in their "interpretation" of the so called "evidence".

Can you be convicted on circumstantial evidence if your opposing lawyer is very clever in his use of words? Yes you can.
It appears to be
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but there is a lingering doubt when you know what the evidence really consists of.



To my way of thinking, what is pathetic is that there is no real evidence. You keep putting up this argument for "evidence", but in reality it just isn't there. Over a 100 years of evolutionary infiltration into the human psyche has not turned up a single solitary piece of hard evidence that one species ever evolved into another. I see adaptation within species, but that is not what you are promoting. There is absolutely no proof that all life on this planet evolved from a single celled organism billions of years ago. That is the real delusion.



It only "shows" to those who want evolution to be true and who accept the "evidence" along with the interpretation that science presents.
I don't accept it and never will.
I see your theory as something you will never be able to "prove" as long as you live.
I can see that you believe it, but I believe just as passionately for ID.
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I only have to look at the miracle of reproduction to know that all these babies are the product of design. All conceived and entered into the world in their own unique way. These are not unintentional accidents of blind evolution.

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You have said absolutely nothing here whatsoever besides, "Lalalalala, I don't want to hear it."

And the truly bizarre thing is that you're placing all your faith in an idea that has no empirical evidence whatsoever as you dismiss one of the most well-evidence scientific theories in existence. All the while claiming that evolution has no evidence. It's baffling.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I was more referring to pharmaceutical companies synthesizing the compounds in a lab for mass production. I have read where the efficacy is lost when the drug with its all its medicinal properties is not sources from the natural plant. I do not trust them not to interfere with those properties. This has the potential to make a big impact on their business and we can see this already interfering with the release of this medicine to those who really need it....right now. The stalling tactics are disturbing to say the least. It isn't about safety, its about profit.

Why do you think that? Synthetic opioids are quote potent, for example. Fentanyl is similar to morphine, but is 50-100 times more potent. Why would pharmaceutical companies want to process the drug in such a way that it loses its medicinal properties? That doesn’t make any sense.

Safety has to be a factor, and it’s a big one. It’s part of the reason that research and development is so lengthy and costly.

There are a number of companies that are already selling medical marijuana in various forms. I buy mine from a company called Phyto and it comes in a concentrated dab/shatter form. It’s the only thing that helps my migraines.

Alcohol and tobacco are not "prescribed", but they are taken by millions of people, none the less. I have never met an alcoholic yet who was not a self medicating depressive.

And that’s a real problem. Millions of people take heroin too. Millions of people have a gambling problem. Millions and millions of other people are able to drink alcohol without any problems.

I’m not sure if you’re aware of the history of Prohibition in the US, but not only was banning alcohol not effective, it also created a whole host of other problems, the main one being that it created a huge underground market and a whole lot of violent gang crime. I’ve seen that used as one of the reasons marijuana should be legalized, in fact.

My father was an alcoholic but it never occurred to me that alcohol should be banned. He would have just found something else to take. It occurred to me that he had some issues he was having a difficult time dealing with. Mental illness is an issue that is most often ignored in our society. But that’s a whole other discussion.

Tobacco is also a highly addictive drug used by many to calm their nerves, so even though they are not "medicines" per se, they are still used as drugs and are perfectly legal despite the fact that both can cause serious illness and death.

Tobacco isn’t an addictive drug, nicotine is. And it is highly regulated. Though the tobacco lobby is quite powerful. What would you say to someone who used the same argument you use for marijuana, but used it for tobacco instead? It’s just a plant, why should it be illegal?

You can almost count on one hand the number of people who have had cannabis identified as a cause of death. Most had other drugs in their system. Some may well have had a negative reaction to it. People's responses to drugs vary greatly.

That’s great. But you can’t go around saying there are no overdose deaths if there actually been some.

I would like to see it prescribed freely by doctors for any and all ailments where no other therapy has worked. We have cannabinoid receptors all over our bodies, so I believe that this plant is designed to treat a multitude of illnesses. Neurological conditions in particular respond well to cannabis.

Then you should move to Canada, or do what you have to do in your own country to move things in that direction.

We have nicotinic receptors and opioid receptors in our bodies as well. What do you make of that?

For those who suffer every day, what possible harm is there in trialing it? If done under a doctor's supervision and if the medicine or even the medicinal plant seeds could be prescribed by a doctor and administered from a pharmacy, all the controls would be in place. Patients could be monitored and the plants only grown by those authorized by their doctors to do so. That at least would be better than what is happening here in my country at present.

They have lumped all cannabis under one umbrella and banned the lot. That is like banning non-alcoholic wine along with the high alcohol spirits.
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Release the low THC, high CBD genus and let us try it for our family members who are suffering.

They have nothing to lose.

You know those links I gave you at the beginning of my last post? If you read them, you will notice that what you are describing here is exactly what we are doing in Canada. A friend of mine grows his own marijuana and sells it in a dispensary. There are still some problems with this new system, but we’ve come a long way in what I think is a positive direction.

I don’t know what it’s like in Australia, but around here, nobody really cares too much if you spoke marijuana recreationally either. I mean, you shouldn’t smoke it right in front of a cop or something but it’s fairly acceptable to most people. Our new Prime Minister ran on a platform of fully legalizing and regulating marijuana, in fact.

https://www.liberal.ca/realchange/marijuana/

One thing that does irk me, as I said before, is when people start claiming that marijuana cures cancers and things like that, especially given that the evidence is inconclusive. I don’t like the idea of people thinking that marijuana is going to cure them of whatever ails them while foregoing other forms of medical treatment that may be more effective for them.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Deeje Let me ask...

Science tells me that Lamictal XR works to control my seizures. Scientist have done a lot of test to which doctors can now authenticate by their tests and patient trial in order to find out this scientific theory is true. I and thousands of other individuals with Epilepsy know it is true because we are a living testimony of it. It is not based on belief. It's based on fact. I put my faith into this Lamictal an after yeearrs of taking it, now I know it is a fact and I no longer need faith and belief.

I know science works. It is universal. It can be tested. It benefits society.

Religion does all this except one of a couple of things, it can't be tested and it's not universal. We have records of tests and testimonies of experiences that we can see and observe from science of medicine yet what you have is a claim that "god created the heavens and the earth."

We ask you, just as patients asks our doctors, "can you tell me the evidence that it works? Can I talk to people it has helped? Can I see data of its success?"

We cannot do that with biblical claims. Every time we ask you and believers to give evidence to god, you show the Bible. That means nothing to me because it isn't a universal criteria to judge what is religious fact and what is not.

Most people who take Lamictal has their seizure controlled by some extent. Our patient experiences are similar so that is why we take similar medicine. We have similar affects in control and live our life in a similar fasion.

For believers, I ask you, Baptist Joe Smoe, and Catholic Jane do to give me evidence for god and each of you give me different things. The Baptist would not agree that the JW is the only way to know about god and the bible properly. Nor do they agree that the Eucharist is the only way to Christ. Unfortunately, you don't believe in the Eucharist and unfortunately Catholics don't believe Christ exists without the Eucharist.

How in the world can you compare science of medicine and study of patients success with some medicines with belief in god when we have similar experiences from the same condition but believers can't even agree on their condition (original sin? non-original sin? trinity? No trinity?) nor can you agree to the same experiences from the same god (born again of water? born of sacraments? born of spirit? born of deeds?)

Science has a lot more concrete evidence for it's existence and results that we can test an see all over the world than belief in god solely for one of many reasons that there are so many interpretations of god that to say science is anything more or less than god is like comparing an invisible penny in my left hand and a visible penny in my right.

Now you can use the bible all day and night to prove that invisible penny exists but it all goes back to belief. I can prove that the penny exists in my right hand.

Both science and religion (or however you call it) authenticity is based on two separate criteria. They can't be compared to each other. Science cannot be an idol to religion unless the people worship science.

We don't. It's like saying because I take Lamictal, I'm using it as an idol because I know it works but I reject god only because I haven't experienced him as I do my medicine.

Does that make any sense to you?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ictheyostega, a 370 million year old fish-amphibian transitional species that had fish like traits (tail fins, gills, fish like snout and teeth) and land animal like traits (four legs with feet and fingers, shoulders and necks and hips and lungs) . Found in the horizon between the arising of lungfish ancestors (lobe finned fish, 420 million years) and later modern amphibians (320 million years) . Just accident or evolution? ;)

Full CT-scanned image of the animal based on fossils (over 200 individuals found)
1-shifttoshore.jpg


Full details of anatomy
http://tolweb.org/Ichthyostega

How it moved on land, hauling its body like seals
http://phys.org/news/2012-05-shift-shore-extinct-tetrapod-ichthyostega.html

What is it that you fail to understand? I do not accept that evolution, as you believe it, ever took place.

You see these things presented as "evidence" for evolution, but it is a premise that is completely unproven. No one was there to document any of it, so what you find in the fossil record does not really paint the picture you want it to. Science does that with their diagrams and graphics. It is "assumed" that there is an evolutionary chain of descent, all linked by intermediate species....but the facts are, that there are no intermediate species (and there should be thousands of them for every living thing on this planet if the theory is correct) Finding something that resembles another species is automatically assumed to be an ancestor.....yet there is nothing "linking" the two except a similarity.

If your first premise (that evolution is a fact and "must" have taken place) is flawed, then everything you present to uphold that premise will also be flawed. It will seem to fit the description of a transitional species because you want it to. I don't see that any species, just because it resembles another in a past era, is linked in any way to anything before it.....except by suggestion.

Why can't that Ictheyostega be just another created species who appeared like all the others, suddenly and with nothing connecting it to any later creature except some similarity in its anatomical structure? How many creatures exist today who are similar in many ways to others......yet this isn't proof for evolution. It is only proof of diversity. We are all made of the same stuff after all.
I believe that the Creator probably had a wonderful time experimenting with various models before he settled on the keepers.

I am not expecting you to accept my views, but you somehow seem to think I have to accept yours.
Mine is more believable IMV. You are welcome to believe whatever you like.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
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Photographs of random creatures isn't evidence for intelligent design. Scientific standards are much higher than that, even if yours aren't.

Reproduction is a miracle. Self replicating creatures who produce miniatures of themselves and who nurture and care for their young in the most tender fashion are not accidents of evolution. Look at the variety of ways that these creatures reproduce.....it is truly staggering. I know what my eyes tell me....I don't need scientists to explain this all away as undirected "natural selection". Doesn't the fact we humans think they are beautiful mean something? None of these creatures admire each other except maybe for dinner.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why do you think that? Synthetic opioids are quote potent, for example. Fentanyl is similar to morphine, but is 50-100 times more potent. Why would pharmaceutical companies want to process the drug in such a way that it loses its medicinal properties? That doesn’t make any sense.

Drug companies are not as interested in cures as they are in treatments....for obvious reasons. Pain relief is a treatment that nets them a lot of money annually. Any drug that can be sold in an ongoing treatment (hopefully for the rest of someone's life) is desirable....also for obvious reasons. Cures are almost never forthcoming. Treatments are constantly being developed however.

Safety has to be a factor, and it’s a big one. It’s part of the reason that research and development is so lengthy and costly.

There are a number of companies that are already selling medical marijuana in various forms. I buy mine from a company called Phyto and it comes in a concentrated dab/shatter form. It’s the only thing that helps my migraines.
I envy you that freedom. We cannot access that way yet. We live in hope.

I’m not sure if you’re aware of the history of Prohibition in the US, but not only was banning alcohol not effective, it also created a whole host of other problems, the main one being that it created a huge underground market and a whole lot of violent gang crime. I’ve seen that used as one of the reasons marijuana should be legalized, in fact.

I have seen it estimated that if cannabis was legalized, the bottom would fall out of the illegal drug trade.
No one it seems has any trouble getting their hands on marijuana for recreational use. We just can't get it as medicine. Does that make any sense?

My father was an alcoholic but it never occurred to me that alcohol should be banned. He would have just found something else to take. It occurred to me that he had some issues he was having a difficult time dealing with. Mental illness is an issue that is most often ignored in our society. But that’s a whole other discussion.
One of my dearest friends has battled alcohol addiction most of her adult life. As an abused child of two alcoholic parents, her issues are hard to conquer. Alcohol is medicine to her when nothing else will numb the pain and her mind is running riot.

Tobacco isn’t an addictive drug, nicotine is. And it is highly regulated. Though the tobacco lobby is quite powerful. What would you say to someone who used the same argument you use for marijuana, but used it for tobacco instead? It’s just a plant, why should it be illegal?

I think we have enough evidence to convict nicotine (and all the other poisons in commercially manufactured tobacco products) of being extremely detrimental to health, not only to the smoker, but to those who have shared their second hand smoke.
Alcohol and tobacco cost the health care system millions of dollars every year, but no one wants to ban them.....so why do that to cannabis, which is not deadly, in fact it has been shown to be relatively harmless. And with very little in the way of side effects.

Then you should move to Canada, or do what you have to do in your own country to move things in that direction.
There are many trying to get it legalized here but the lobby against it is very powerful, as we continue to see.

We have nicotinic receptors and opioid receptors in our bodies as well. What do you make of that?

They have been used in folk medicines for thousands of years. Where do you think the "Coke" in CocaCola comes from? Cocaine has always been used as a "medicine".

You know those links I gave you at the beginning of my last post? If you read them, you will notice that what you are describing here is exactly what we are doing in Canada. A friend of mine grows his own marijuana and sells it in a dispensary. There are still some problems with this new system, but we’ve come a long way in what I think is a positive direction.

I don’t know what it’s like in Australia, but around here, nobody really cares too much if you spoke marijuana recreationally either. I mean, you shouldn’t smoke it right in front of a cop or something but it’s fairly acceptable to most people. Our new Prime Minister ran on a platform of fully legalizing and regulating marijuana, in fact.

Our Prime Minister and yours need to get together I feel.

One thing that does irk me, as I said before, is when people start claiming that marijuana cures cancers and things like that, especially given that the evidence is inconclusive. I don’t like the idea of people thinking that marijuana is going to cure them of whatever ails them while foregoing other forms of medical treatment that may be more effective for them.

One day perhaps the anecdotal evidence will be accepted as accurate. Many cancers have been cured with cannabis.
The doctors had given many of them up as lost....."go home and die".....but they sought out some medicinal cannabis instead and are today cancer free....all without expensive chemo-therapy, probably the most loathsome treatment a person with a terminal illness can endure.

Changing strongly entrenched attitudes is difficult as we both know.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What is it that you fail to understand? I do not accept that evolution, as you believe it, ever took place.
You are welcome to believe whatever you want. But you started a thread here trying to convince others of the rational validity of your irrational beliefs. You should expect people to rebut your fact-free claims.

You see these things presented as "evidence" for evolution, but it is a premise that is completely unproven. No one was there to document any of it, so what you find in the fossil record does not really paint the picture you want it to.

Science completely rejects the idea that the past cannot be known unless some person was there to document it. The past has left behind ample evidence of itself in the present which can be scientifically analyzed to gain and accurate and reliable picture of ancient times (either in earth or in the universe in general).

Science does that with their diagrams and graphics.
A well informed and quantitative graph or a scientific diagram is worth a 1000 data sheets. While the artists impressions are for family friendly vibe in museums, actual diagrams of bones and relationships encapsulate immense amounts of extensively analyzed data in a useful format. Just so you know, its done in all sciences. Here is one where the burning of gasoline spray insider your car engine is simulated by a model. Such models are routinely used to design and analyze the performance of engines


It is "assumed" that there is an evolutionary chain of descent, all linked by intermediate species....but the facts are, that there are no intermediate species (and there should be thousands of them for every living thing on this planet if the theory is correct) Finding something that resembles another species is automatically assumed to be an ancestor.....yet there is nothing "linking" the two except a similarity.
If your first premise (that evolution is a fact and "must" have taken place) is flawed, then everything you present to uphold that premise will also be flawed. It will seem to fit the description of a transitional species because you want it to. I don't see that any species, just because it resembles another in a past era, is linked in any way to anything before it.....except by suggestion.

The theory of evolution predicts that descent with modification with natural selection will create species that will show biological similarities with their ancestral lineage while slowly diverging as time progresses into newer types of body structure. The theory of evolution predicts that when we look at two very different seeming types (land animals and fish), there will be ancient animals who lived in the past who would share characteristics of both fish and land animals and we would see a chronological sequence where we would see certain types of fossil fish appear that are more and more land animal like until the first fossils of land amphibians crop up.

Thus the theory of evolution predicts a pattern, a pattern that has no reason to exist otherwise. Here is the pattern\

1) The ancient earth will have no land animals but only fish in the sea. This is indeed what we see before 400 million years.
2) There will eventually be groups of fish that will have some similarities with land animals. This is observed in the fossil record with lungfish (fish with lungs) and other lobe-finned fish (fish with four fleshy limb like fin lobes) cropping up from 400 million years. No land animals are found yet.
3) Some groups of lobe finned fish are seen to adapt to shallow waters and begin to sport primitive limb bones in their fins
Example Eusthenopteron. 385 million years ago, after generic lungfish are seen and before any animals are seen.
http://palaeos.com/vertebrates/sarcopterygii/eusthenopteron.html

Eusthenopteron_foordi_1.jpg


With the typical bone structure in the limbs that will become characteristic of all later land animals
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EusthenPectFinAll.gif


4) By 375 million years, fish-amphibian transition animals like Tiktaalik are being found showing further development of limbs, heads and other features that make them more and more similar to land vertebrates.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/13/tiktaalik-fossil-fish-four-legged-land-animal

"Its extraordinary blend of gills, scales, fins and lungs, combined with a movable neck, sturdy ribcage and crocodile-like head, placed Tiktaalik half way between fish and the earliest four-legged land animals.In work published on Monday, researchers describe fossils of the back half of Tiktaalik for the first time. The report shows that the animal had a large, robust pelvic girdle, a prominent hip joint, and long hind fins. The powerful fins could have propelled the beast in the water, but also helped it walk on riverbeds, or scramble around on mudflats."

image_1686_2e-Tiktaalik-roseae.jpg


5) Finally we have Acanthostega and Icthyostega that are discovered after 370 million years that, as I discussed, have many of the features that show them to be clearly amphibious.

6)Its only after this, from 360 million years, that land vertebrate fossils begin to enter the fossil record. An example is an ancient land walking amphibious animal Perderpes from 350 million years who show striking similarity with earlier Acanthostega and yet has more well developed legs and shoulders that are now capable of supporting its full weight on land.

017_070__pederpes_1418255009_standard.jpg


Pederpes.jpg


7) Thus from 400-350 million years, the fossil record show a chronological sequence where -at one end we have only primitive fishes and no vertebrate animals whatsoever on land, and the other end we have the first land walking amphibians. And in between we have a whole sequence of fish-amphibian animals whose bodies begin by looking like the ancient fishes but take on characteristics of the primitive amphibians over time, until at the end we have the first land walking amphibians! This is exactly as predicted by the theory of evolution, where descent through modification and natural selection is expected to generate just this kind of a pattern as the animals slowly evolve from fully marine fishes to land-walking amphibians through 50 million years of evolution over successive generations.

I10-72-tetree1.jpg

tetrapod2.jpg


8) Your "Jehova created everything directly when he wanted to" can neither predict such a pattern or explain why its rational to expect such a pattern. He could have created land animals with fully developed features along with all the fishes directly 450 million years ago. All the fishes, all the reptiles, all the amphibians, all the birds could have been created at the same time, fully modern . He could have created them billions of years ago instead of waiting around for 4 billion years since the formation of earth and populating the earth with nothing but bacteria, amoeba and plankton for the first 3.5 billion years of life.

In your theory there is no reason to expect
i) Simple unicellular prokaryotic life to predate complex multicellular life by a billion years (in evolution this is expected)
ii) Eukaryotic cells to arise after prokaryotic cells by a billion years (in evolution this is expected)
iii) Simplest types of animals like jellyfish and sponge to predate complex animals by 100 million years (in evolution you expect this)
iv) Early forms of invertebrate and vertebrate life look very primitive and less well developed than later types in the Cambrian era (in evolution you expect this)
v) Fish fossils to show distinct stages of sequential development of modern features over a 100 million year period like from jawless varieties to jaws, from bony plates to scales, from no internal skeleton to internal skeleton (the flexible vertebra), from early lobe like fins to more aerodynamic ray like fins. (evolution predicts this)
vi) For vertebrate animals to appear on land much much after the emergence of fish and the earliest of them showing a clear sequence of intermediate forms between certain fish and the first amphibians.(evolution predicts this)
vii) For amphibians to arise first, then reptiles, then mammals, then dinosaurs and then birds with clear sequence of forms intermediate between each of these group just at the time point of emergence.(evolution predicts this)


Why can't that Ictheyostega be just another created species who appeared like all the others, suddenly and with nothing connecting it to any later creature except some similarity in its anatomical structure? How many creatures exist today who are similar in many ways to others......yet this isn't proof for evolution. It is only proof of diversity. We are all made of the same stuff after all.
I believe that the Creator probably had a wonderful time experimenting with various models before he settled on the keepers.
It appears Jehovah went into an enormous amount of trouble trying to time and finetune his designed animals so that it looks like they arose by evolution. It seems his only goals were to make evolution appear to be correct rather than good design of perfected animals! Thousands and thousands of very different animals filled the same ecological niche over the eons again and again before becoming extinct and replaced by new forms living almost the exact same way. What is this? A perfect omnipotent, omniscient designer can't decide what he wants and changing each and every animal type every 2-3 million years or so for the last 600 million years? Building and rebuilding species, moving the continents and oceans around again and again, building and eroding mountains again and again and again eon after eon of pointless mindless transformations and re-transformations. This is design?? Wow!! He is psychotic or something? You belittle God by hanging onto such a regressive view of creation.


I am not expecting you to accept my views, but you somehow seem to think I have to accept yours.
Mine is more believable IMV. You are welcome to believe whatever you like.

I do not expect you to change your views either. I will simply show how unjustfied and irrational your rejection of evolution is. Rest is upto you and others who read this thread. Your problem is not only your faith but your inability to understand anything beyond surface appearance. All you have done so far is to post pretty pictures. That is the level of your engagement with the natural world. You have not looked beyond the fur and feathers into the flesh, bone, blood and eventually into the cells and the genes over all of which this cm thick skin is nothing but a protective covering. Similarly you have not looked behind the wafer thin skin of the present now and down into the thick layers of 4 billion years of the past of this earth and this life in earth. No wonder your understanding is riddled with false beliefs. You are like a person who believes that the gift wrap is the gift itself and the book cover is the book itself. Probably you understand your Bible and God in the same way as well and thus make your religion and God presented in it much less than He needs to be. :shrug:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@sayak83 I am unimpressed by your diagrams and acceptance of this so called "evidence" used to support an unproven premise. I can only repeat.....

You see these things presented as "evidence" for evolution, but it is a premise that is completely unprovable. No one was there to document any of it, so what you find in the fossil record does not really paint the picture you want it to without a lot of tap dancing. Science does that with their diagrams and graphics. It is "assumed" that there is an evolutionary chain of descent, all linked by intermediate species....but the facts are, that there are no intermediate species (and there should be thousands of them for every living thing on this planet if the theory is correct) Finding something that resembles another species is automatically "assumed" to be an ancestor.....yet there is nothing "linking" the two except a similarity.

If your first premise (that evolution is a fact and "must" have taken place) is flawed, then everything you present to uphold that premise will also be flawed. It will "seem" to fit the description of a transitional species because you want it to. I don't see that any species, just because it resembles another in a past era, is linked in any way to anything before it.....except by suggestion. Those are the real facts.

More pretty pictures.....here is the real "evidence".
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It's easy to "assume" a lot of things......except when you really look at what you are saying. How do plants "know" to present themselves like this? What could possibly be a reason for any these amazing displays of pure creativity?
All these specimens (a mere fraction of the myriads of different flowers and colors there are in this world) according to evolution, are just accidents of blind forces with no intelligence directing their appearance, color scheme, function or beauty......Look at them and say that without a just a hint of doubt.

IMV these pictures are proof of a Creator and they are worth a million of your boring diagrams. Does science replace common sense? Apparently it does if you have the right mind set.

Just accidental? Really?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
For those interested in supporting the Bible's view of creation and how it agrees with what science actually knows (as opposed to what it assumes to know.)....

Please read the following series of articles....."The Untold Story of Creation"....."How Long Did God Take to Create the Universe?"....."Did God use Evolution?"....."A Creator Perceived in Creation".

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102014083

Also http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102014006
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member

Pictures of random animals isn't evidence of anything except that you were able to find some pictures of animals on the internet. All you seem to be claiming here is, "Look at these random animals I found. I don't know how it could have evolved so god did it." That's an argument from personal incredulity and its a logical fallacy. It's a weird claim coming from someone who claims to be following logic.

Reproduction is a miracle. Self replicating creatures who produce miniatures of themselves and who nurture and care for their young in the most tender fashion are not accidents of evolution. Look at the variety of ways that these creatures reproduce.....it is truly staggering. I know what my eyes tell me....I don't need scientists to explain this all away as undirected "natural selection".
We know how reproduction works.
Define miracle.

Please explain and demonstrate why natural selection doesn't work. Your Nobel Prize may be on the line here.
Doesn't the fact we humans think they are beautiful mean something? None of these creatures admire each other except maybe for dinner.
Not really. I don't think tape worms are beautiful. Does that mean something?

How do you know creatures don't "admire" others and what do you mean by that?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's easy to "assume" a lot of things......except when you really look at what you are saying. How do plants "know" to present themselves like this? What could possibly be a reason for any these amazing displays of pure creativity?
C'mon. This has been known for centuries. The flower's main task is to attract insects, birds or other small animals to it for nectar so that they can use the animal to spread its pollen. Its their way to reproduce, as plants cannot move around like animals, its essential that they do this efficiently. Plants with flowers that happen to have the shape, smell and color combination best for attracting pollinators reproduced better than other plants, ideal situation for evolution to work its mechanism to make plants with progressively more attractive flowers. The insects and other pollinators who could accurately pick out the flowers with the most nectar also had an edge over others, so those who were better at selecting flowers reproduced more. This has caused the flowers to evolve into so many shapes from simple beginnings 130 million years ago.

You have got it the other way round. Humans and other animals find flowers and fruits beautiful and are attracted by them because the plants have taught us to feel attracted towards them to further their own reproductive interests.
 

Olinda

Member
@sayak83 I am unimpressed by your diagrams and acceptance of this so called "evidence" used to support an unproven premise. I can only repeat.....

You see these things presented as "evidence" for evolution, but it is a premise that is completely unprovable. No one was there to document any of it, so what you find in the fossil record does not really paint the picture you want it to without a lot of tap dancing.

diagrams. Does science replace common sense? Apparently it does if you have the right mind set.

Just accidental? Really?

No one was there to document any of it, so what you find in the fossil record does not really paint the picture you want it to without a lot of tap dancing
And yet you confidently assert that an atom is complex. . .although no-one has 'been there' to document it. You also have no problem with graphics and diagrams of atomic and molecular structure.
Does science replace common sense? Apparently it does if you have the right mind set.
Does belief forbid logic? Apparently it does if you have the 'right' mind set.;)
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
@sayak83 I am unimpressed by your diagrams and acceptance of this so called "evidence" used to support an unproven premise. I can only repeat.....

You see these things presented as "evidence" for evolution, but it is a premise that is completely unprovable. No one was there to document any of it, so what you find in the fossil record does not really paint the picture you want it to without a lot of tap dancing. Science does that with their diagrams and graphics. It is "assumed" that there is an evolutionary chain of descent, all linked by intermediate species....but the facts are, that there are no intermediate species (and there should be thousands of them for every living thing on this planet if the theory is correct) Finding something that resembles another species is automatically "assumed" to be an ancestor.....yet there is nothing "linking" the two except a similarity.

If your first premise (that evolution is a fact and "must" have taken place) is flawed, then everything you present to uphold that premise will also be flawed. It will "seem" to fit the description of a transitional species because you want it to. I don't see that any species, just because it resembles another in a past era, is linked in any way to anything before it.....except by suggestion. Those are the real facts.

More pretty pictures.....here is the real "evidence".

It's easy to "assume" a lot of things......except when you really look at what you are saying. How do plants "know" to present themselves like this? What could possibly be a reason for any these amazing displays of pure creativity?
All these specimens (a mere fraction of the myriads of different flowers and colors there are in this world) according to evolution, are just accidents of blind forces with no intelligence directing their appearance, color scheme, function or beauty......Look at them and say that without a just a hint of doubt.

IMV these pictures are proof of a Creator and they are worth a million of your boring diagrams. Does science replace common sense? Apparently it does if you have the right mind set.

Just accidental? Really?
Sayak just demonstrated that claim is completely wrong, in his last post.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Drug companies are not as interested in cures as they are in treatments....for obvious reasons. Pain relief is a treatment that nets them a lot of money annually. Any drug that can be sold in an ongoing treatment (hopefully for the rest of someone's life) is desirable....also for obvious reasons. Cures are almost never forthcoming. Treatments are constantly being developed however.

Cures are much harder to produce than drugs that act on cells in our bodies. That’s why cures are hard to come by.

So you agree that synthesization doesn’t necessarily reduce a drug’s potency?

If what you say is true, then they should be in favour of selling medical cannabis . Cannabis isn’t a cure for anything either.

I envy you that freedom. We cannot access that way yet. We live in hope.

I have to correct myself on the name of the company. It’s actually called Phyto Extractions. The stuff they produce is fantastic, I have to say. And reasonably priced.

I urge you to petition your government for the changes you are looking for. And make your votes count. It wasn’t too long ago that we had a government that wanted to strengthen and enforce marijuana laws in this country, despite the fact that the majority of people wanted it decriminalized or completely legal. Now we have one that wants to legalize marijuana.

I have seen it estimated that if cannabis was legalized, the bottom would fall out of the illegal drug trade.

No one it seems has any trouble getting their hands on marijuana for recreational use. We just can't get it as medicine. Does that make any sense?

Our Prime Minister uses those exact arguments when making his case for marijuana legalization and regulation. I’ve always agreed with that long before he came along.

One of my dearest friends has battled alcohol addiction most of her adult life. As an abused child of two alcoholic parents, her issues are hard to conquer. Alcohol is medicine to her when nothing else will numb the pain and her mind is running riot.

It’s heartbreaking.

My dad was a very private person, not very good with talking about his feelings and such, so I was never able to get to the bottom of his issues. Though we never stopped trying. He ended up getting addicted to prescription painkillers after a terrible car accident and then he moved onto the harder drugs when those stopped working, and that eventually ended up killing him. Just to give you an idea of where I’m coming from.

I think we have enough evidence to convict nicotine (and all the other poisons in commercially manufactured tobacco products) of being extremely detrimental to health, not only to the smoker, but to those who have shared their second hand smoke.

Alcohol and tobacco cost the health care system millions of dollars every year, but no one wants to ban them.....so why do that to cannabis, which is not deadly, in fact it has been shown to be relatively harmless. And with very little in the way of side effects.

Actually the funny thing is, nicotine actually does have some benefits. It has been shown to enhance motor and cognitive functions. And some researchers are looking into the possibility of using drugs that stimulate nicotinic receptors to treat Alzheimer’s disease.

I think a lot of people actually want to ban tobacco and alcohol, but the big debacle with Prohibition kind of puts the kibosh on those ideas.

There are many trying to get it legalized here but the lobby against it is very powerful, as we continue to see.

Who is lobbying against it?

They have been used in folk medicines for thousands of years. Where do you think the "Coke" in CocaCola comes from? Cocaine has always been used as a "medicine".

They used to give that stuff to children and infants. They put cocaine and laudanum in all kinds of things. Then they started testing and regulating it when everybody started abusing the stuff.

Just an FYI: Cocaine is a psychostimulant, not an opioid.

Our Prime Minister and yours need to get together I feel.

I wish I could set that up for you.

Feel free to come visit our country anytime.

One day perhaps the anecdotal evidence will be accepted as accurate. Many cancers have been cured with cannabis.

The doctors had given many of them up as lost....."go home and die".....but they sought out some medicinal cannabis instead and are today cancer free....all without expensive chemo-therapy, probably the most loathsome treatment a person with a terminal illness can endure.

Changing strongly entrenched attitudes is difficult as we both know.

Unfortunately anecdotes aren’t enough. These claims need to be demonstrated in a more scientific manner than that. It’s just not ethical to claim it cures cancer when there aren’t enough positive results to lead to that conclusion.

Hopefully the loosening on marijuana restrictions will lead to more studies and hopefully some positive results. There are some studies on its effectiveness in treating cancer, but like I said, they are inconclusive thus far. (I looked into this when my grandfather was dying from prostate cancer.) Some studies show it reducing tumour growth and some show it increasing tumour growth or having no effect at all. Then there are issues with dosage, possible drug interactions and its effects on different types of cancers. There’s a lot that still needs to be worked on.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Pictures of random animals isn't evidence of anything except that you were able to find some pictures of animals on the internet. All you seem to be claiming here is, "Look at these random animals I found. I don't know how it could have evolved so god did it." That's an argument from personal incredulity and its a logical fallacy. It's a weird claim coming from someone who claims to be following logic.

Defying logic is something science seems to do all the time. I know what science wants me to think, but when I see these creatures and the amazing variety even within species and how many of them co-exist in the same environment without that environment affecting them in the same way, it makes way more sense to me to believe that something so beautifully designed had to have a designer. I see design everywhere in nature, and we have the senses to appreciate them. Pictures of reality are worth more than many diagrams.

We know how reproduction works.
Define miracle.

Reproduction for the most part, takes place in complete secrecy. All science has been able to do is show us "how" it happens, revealing the processes of the miracle.
The "miracle" itself is that humans cannot reproduce the original life. They can transfer life from pre-existing life, but they cannot create life from scratch. So a miracle to me is something humans cannot duplicate from start to finish. They must work with the raw materials that already exist.

Please explain and demonstrate why natural selection doesn't work. Your Nobel Prize may be on the line here.

Unlike scientists, I am not interested in accolades. I would rather give credit where it is due. "Natural selection" is like adaptation (micro-evolution).....it has limits....but science wants to take those limits to ridiculous degrees into areas they cannot prove and then pretend that it has all the facts. It clearly doesn't.

Not really. I don't think tape worms are beautiful. Does that mean something?

Everything has a place in the scheme of things....even tape worms.

How do you know creatures don't "admire" others and what do you mean by that?

I am talking about being endowed with the ability to appreciate something beyond a rudimentary level. Like seeing food and eating it. Seeing water and drinking it. Seeing a potential mate and being driven by hormones only to replicate.

When I lived in the country, some of the most breathtaking views in that place in the high elevations, were from paddocks full of sheep and cows. I never once saw them admiring those views. Magnificent sunrises and sunsets came and went without even a cursory glance from any of them.

I never saw them consult a recipe book or demand food beyond what was in the paddock.
I never saw them inquire about changing the color of their coats or adding adornment to their ears or bodies.
I never saw them write poetry or organize themselves into theatre or poetry groups. Only humans do these things, so can you tell me why, out of all the species that exist on planet Earth, not one of them is equal to us in its ability to appreciate the world around them? None have the same communication skills and none have burial rituals or the inherent need to worship a higher power?

All other creatures adapt to their surroundings, are non polluting, and utilize the food growing in their own environment....yet only humans permanently adapt their surroundings to suit themselves, have no concern about pollution because of greed and selfishness, and rape the earth and the oceans to feed people stuff they can't get where they live. Why do humans alone bear these traits, when no others do? We are the latecomers on the scene after all.

IMO the Bible's explanation is logical and agrees with what science actually knows, as opposed to what it thinks it knows.
I accept its writings, just as you accept the writings of teachers that you respect.
My truth is not your truth and your truth gives me no reason for my existence nor any hope for the future.
We are each free to choose what appeals to our own logic. Evolution is blind...but I am not.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
C'mon. This has been known for centuries. The flower's main task is to attract insects, birds or other small animals to it for nectar so that they can use the animal to spread its pollen. Its their way to reproduce, as plants cannot move around like animals, its essential that they do this efficiently. Plants with flowers that happen to have the shape, smell and color combination best for attracting pollinators reproduced better than other plants, ideal situation for evolution to work its mechanism to make plants with progressively more attractive flowers. The insects and other pollinators who could accurately pick out the flowers with the most nectar also had an edge over others, so those who were better at selecting flowers reproduced more. This has caused the flowers to evolve into so many shapes from simple beginnings 130 million years ago.

You have got it the other way round. Humans and other animals find flowers and fruits beautiful and are attracted by them because the plants have taught us to feel attracted towards them to further their own reproductive interests.

You say that with such conviction and yet it is so silly to assume that brainless plants can decide to do anything about their color or shape. We already spoke about the Orchid Wasp.

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All these orchids attract orchid wasps to pollinate them. Not only do they have a replica of a female wasp on the cusp of their flowers, but they also produce the same pheromone as a female wasp so that the flower is very alluring to the male. How did these particular varieties of orchids and others decide to use the same ruse to get themselves "pollinated"?

According to the following link, they evolved them "independently", yet they are found all over the world.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150202-three-ways-orchids-trick-insects
What are the odds of such a clever fluke happening in independent pockets of these flowering orchids on different continents? Apparently the Hammer Orchid takes things even further and is lured into gymnastics.
And you just wouldn't want to be a fungus gnat.
scared.gif


Seriously, how far do we need to stretch our imagination? Why can't we see clever design where it is clearly exhibited and give credit for the ingenuity to the designer?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You say that with such conviction and yet it is so silly to assume that brainless plants can decide to do anything about their color or shape. We already spoke about the Orchid Wasp.

images
images
images
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All these orchids attract orchid wasps to pollinate them. Not only do they have a replica of a female wasp on the cusp of their flowers, but they also produce the same pheromone as a female wasp so that the flower is very alluring to the male. How did these particular varieties of orchids and others decide to use the same ruse to get themselves "pollinated"?

According to the following link, they evolved them "independently", yet they are found all over the world.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150202-three-ways-orchids-trick-insects
What are the odds of such a clever fluke happening in independent pockets of these flowering orchids on different continents? Apparently the Hammer Orchid takes things even further and is lured into gymnastics.
And you just wouldn't want to be a fungus gnat.
scared.gif


Seriously, how far do we need to stretch our imagination? Why can't we see clever design where it is clearly exhibited and give credit for the ingenuity to the designer?
I am quite well aware of these excellent examples of convergent evolution and co-evolution. They are routinely discussed and taught as examples of the power of the evolutionary process. We know the genetic history of how these plants mutated to produce flowers of increasingly specific shapes to match with specific pollinators. Do you really want the analysis of science on the emergence and evolution of flowers? I can create an entire thread on this topic. But apparently you get bored by all the details! Pretty pictures are all you want.
 
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