Just Accidental?

[Deeje]

Of the Hidden creator that is...
That for some weird reason, these days, lacks the will or ability to show itself?

And now you are doing what others accuse us of doing....being completely ignorant of the subject.
God is not hidden at all to those who worship him. He will never reveal himself to you just to force you to believe.
He doesn't need to. All his works attest to his existence and his creative talent.

Did it create Cancer?
Did it create Hunger?
Did it create Anger? Envy? Psychedelic illness?
Did it make all the horrific things we experience as a human race?

NO. Humans did that. Allowing these to exist for specific reasons is not the same as causing them. The Bible explains the reasons. You won't accept them though so I won't elaborate.

You'r mistaken...
Things that science can't explain are not considered "un" or "suiper" natural.. they are considered unknown. unlike you, if an Atheist doesn't know something, he simply sais so

Unless it has to do with evolution and then its OK to say...."might have"..."could have"...."leads us to the conclusion"...."suggests" and all the other words that basically say "I don't know" but masquerade as "this really happened".

So fire is supernatural in origin?
And the moon?
And the sun?

YES. How else did the universe begin? Who caused the Big Bang?

Explain fire to us "scientifically".....then explain water....and the mixture of gasses in our atmosphere that allow fire to burn without too much oxygen, so that every spark doesn't result in an explosion. Please explain why the oceans are salty but we need fresh water to stay alive? Is evaporation and precipitation just another fortunate fluke of nature?
Then please explain what would happen if water froze in the same manner as other liquids? Can science explain them?

All these are just part of this endless stream of remarkable co-incidences eh?

Read a bit about the biology of the Jellyfish and you'll understand why

You mean these guys?....

Fascinating, aren't they?
Here is what I learned about them.....

Jellyfish do not have a respiratory system since their skin is thin enough that the body is oxygenated by diffusion.

Jellyfish do not have a brain or central nervous system, but rather have a loose network of nerves, located in the epidermis, which is called a “nerve net.”

Jellyfish are composed of more than 90% water. Most of their umbrella mass is a gelatinous material (the jelly) called mesoglea, which is surrounded by two layers of cells which forms the umbrella (top surface). The subumbrella (bottom surface) of the body is known as the bell.

Jellyfish are dioecious; that is, they are either male or female. In most cases, to reproduce, both males and females release sperm and eggs into the surrounding water, where the (unprotected) eggs are fertilized and mature into new organisms.

They can grow very large.

So you think they all just individually evolved their external features independently of one another....really?

What could have made them choose these color schemes, do you think?

How can you claim it is a fact?

The same way you do...by the evidence. I just have a different interpretation of the evidence than you are content with. Your beliefs require a series of beneficial accidents......mine requires intelligent direction.
My belief system makes more logical sense to me than yours does.

I Have never seen one occasion that anything that cannot be explained in natural ways has ever occurred.
Fact = Something that is supported by proof and evidence.
God = Something that is not

You will find what you are looking for. If you are not looking for God, you will never find him.
The "proof and evidence" that you have for evolution is no more conclusive or provable than mine.

In order for me to reject him, I first need to believe it is true.

The evidence for his existence is all around you. You reject the originator of life and claim that life is just a endless series of fortunate mutations. You are free to believe whatever you like, just don't claim that science has eliminated God, when all is does is try to explain him away
.....and very unconvincingly at that.

How do you exchange one fantasy for an even bigger one?

Funny.. I Can't recall the time he spoke to me and told me I can choose.

He has messengers for that....I am one of them.

Depends..
Are you???

Not with my life, I'm not. It's too precious not to want what the Creator is offering. I won't throw that away.

 

[Deeje]

Creation doesn't give me reason and hope. People do that. I see hope when I look into the eyes of my young niece and nephew. I see hope when I see human beings (and other animals too) supporting and helping each other. I see hope in people who try to make the world a better place.

I see frustration in the eyes of people who try to make the world a better place. They are finding out that what little they can do is not even a drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of the problem.....or the ones they try to help take advantage of them. Its like the church programs I see in my neighborhood. They invite the disadvantaged and addicted ones whose life is one dreary addicted haze, with poor diet and poor health and no hope, and try to offer them a place to stay and some hot meals. Its hand to mouth charity and it never works. You need to teach the man to fish, not just put food in his belly. They will never respect others until they can respect themselves.

Evolution isn't supposed to explain anything but the diversity of life on the planet.

And it does it badly whilst pretending that a powerful Creator is an insult to their intelligence. Who cares how life changed if you have no idea how it began?
Is that not the elephant in the room?

We make our own purpose in life. You do. I do. That guy over there does.

And that guy in the wheelchair over there can't even convey his purpose in life because a car accident left him permanently brain damaged and he has to live his life in a aged care home even though he is only 25 years old. If there is no other life than this one, what about all those who never even get to live it? There is a reason why we humans have a collective expectation that this isn't the life we were meant to live. We all have a hope of a better life somewhere, whether we acknowledge it or not.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Hmmmm....so that is how you dismiss the whole issue? It must be a crutch because we can't come to terms with your hopeless view of life on this planet....? Really? It couldn't be that we have just adopted a belief system that makes more sense to us than yours?

Because we cannot accept your view, we must be just emotionally-charged morons? At least we have feelings. Being emotionally handicapped is a symptom of mental illness actually. Spirituality is inherent in humans down through all ages.....so how come we have reached a technologically advanced age in this 21st century, but we have lost many of the things that make us uniquely human? Our spirituality is not gone...it is just buried under a pile of useless junk.

I'm going off exactly what you just said. Would you like to re-word it?

The reality of life is not just actions devoid of feelings. What motivates people's actions if not their feelings? When people seek a mate, is their relationship based on pure chemistry devoid of feelings?

What makes a ruler into a despot? What corrupts him, if not his feelings about the use of his own power?

You are kidding yourself if you believe that feelings play no part in human choices....you are demonstrating feelings right now.

The laws of nature is purely devoid of feelings. If you want to get into free will and cognitive decision making skills or the development of chemical releases in the brain we can. However we were talking about the laws of the universe and how life evolved. Emotion has nothing to do with that except when talking about the evolutionary advantages of emotions and other complex brain functions.

 

[Shad]

Who cares how life changed if you have no idea how it began?

Obviously other people do care hence why evolution is a major topic in academia and research along with it's practical applications in medicine. You only bring this point up as a dodge, nothing more. Besides we do not need any explanation in the form of abiogenesis in order to develop ideas regarding how life changes. Beside naturalists can easily mimic the hollow explanation of "God did it" with "Nature did it" then move on.

 

[Deeje]

Obviously other people do care hence why evolution is a major topic in academia and research along with it's practical applications in medicine.

I think the 'caring' has more to do with eliminating a Higher Power of any sort...particularly one who might demand that you stop doing something that you want to keep on doing. Making humans into animals gives humans way more freedom and less accountability....don't you think? But has all this freedom and lack of accountability made the world a better place?

You only bring this point up as a dodge, nothing more.

I bring up lots of things because it is what I believe...I haven't seen anything that would sway me the other way at all.
All I see is a grasping at straws.....your theory is completely knee-capped when you expose the foundations upon which it is built. You have nothing concrete, but evolutionists pretend that it is. I believe that the house built on that foundation is about to collapse.

Besides we do not need any explanation in the form of abiogenesis in order to develop ideas regarding how life changes. Beside naturalists can easily mimic the hollow explanation of "God did it" with "Nature did it" then move on.

Father God....Mother Nature....I think you have chosen the wrong parent.

Biomimetics is an interesting branch of science that seeks to imitate the the things found in nature and adapt them for use in modern commercial applications. It always intrigues me that you need intelligent scientists to copy what "nature" did, but the original didn't need an intelligent designer at all.....

 

[Segev Moran]

And now you are doing what others accuse us of doing....being completely ignorant of the subject.

I've learned many religions, Many spiritual subjects.
I've hundreds(!) of books on many spiritual concepts (Ranging from books about communicating with spirits and books like Seth, or Conversations with God). I've read books about Healing, energies, and more.
I have a 2nd degree in Reiki.
I have taken a "Tarot" cards lessons,
I've had my fair share of "Spiritual" experiences in life.
ALL my experiences and knowledge led me to my POV of life.
I participated in countless lectures and seminars in many subjects relating to spirit and religion.
None of them, Not even one! ever presented an evidence other than "hear say".

God is not hidden at all to those who worship him.

So one needs to worship an idea in order for it to prove itself true? Do you really find that logical?
It reminds me the witch test they used to do long ago. They would throw a woman into the water (tied up to rocks) saying that if she will come back from the water, she should be killed because she is a witch.
I Could just the same tell you, thayt only if you really belive you could fly, you could actually do it! (Please!!! don't try that lol)

He will never reveal himself to you just to force you to believe.

Hmmm

He doesn't need to. All his works attest to his existence and his creative talent.

Yet they are all absent any factual evidence as God doesn't want to be revealed unless I believe it exists prior to knowing it exists ?!?!?!?

NO. Humans did that.

Really? Wow.. Good to know... How did human create Epilepsy (For example)?

You won't accept them though so I won't elaborate.

Probably not

Unless it has to do with evolution and then its OK to say...."might have"..."could have"...."leads us to the conclusion"...."suggests" and all the other words that basically say "I don't know" but masquerade as "this really happened".

Once again, Your lack of understanding really shows here.
There are things we know for a FACT! and there are things we can only spedculate.
When science speculates, it is based on things we discover. The more we discover, the better our speculations are.
For example, If science predicted that if evolution is true, then XYZ must be found and proven.. once we find that XYZ is as predicted, the evidence supports the theory.
There were hundreds of times that science found things that contradicted theories. these contradictions caused our entire understanding of things to change. YES... In science, you can change your mind based on what you discover.

YES. How else did the universe begin? Who caused the Big Bang?

I DON'T KNOW!!! Tada!!!! Was it really that hard to admit?
I Have NEVER heard a theist claiming he doesnt know if God exists.
I DONT KNOW if God exists!!! What I do know, is that I have no reason (What so ever) to believe it Does!

Explain fire to us "scientifically".....

Fire - Wikipedia

then explain water....

Water - Wikipedia

and the mixture of gasses in our atmosphere that allow fire to burn without too much oxygen, so that every spark doesn't result in an explosion.

Read the above

Please explain why the oceans are salty but we need fresh water to stay alive? Is evaporation and precipitation just another fortunate fluke of nature?

Wow... So you really believe that Evaporation and precipitation exists so we can live???
Don't you think it works the other way around?

Then please explain what would happen if water froze in the same manner as other liquids?

Water do freeze, you know?

Can science explain them?

Science can explain Many many things.
On the other hand, There are still many things science CAN'T explain.

All these are just part of this endless stream of remarkable co-incidences eh?

Question:
Let's say there is a location on earth where the tempature is always over 100 degrees.
And lets say in this place, a specific form of life emerges.
Would you say that the place was designed to hold the life form or the life form emerged because thats the only life form that could emerge in that environment?

You mean these guys?....

Yep.

Fascinating, aren't they?

Indeed... That's what I said

So you think they all just individually evolved their external features independently of one another....really?

No... They are all (Like ANY other life form on our planet) evolved from other species sharing the same traits.
Slowly, over the yers (billions of them), each specie evolved a little bit different, thus, we have such a variety of species on earth.

What could have made them choose these color schemes, do you think?

The same thing who made you choose the shape of your nose and the color of your eyes lol.
I Hope you don't really believe they "Chose" their appearance.

The same way you do...by the evidence. I just have a different interpretation of the evidence than you are content with.

Can you explain to me what is your interpretation of an evidence?
What do you consider as a sufficient evidence?

Your beliefs require a series of beneficial accidents......

Once again, You talk about accidents while the fact is there is nothing accidental about your existence.
You are an outcome of consequences! not accidents!

mine requires intelligent direction.

Yeah.. I get that

My belief system makes more logical sense to me than yours does.

I Guess your logic works differently.
Let's do a short test.
I'll present you with two statements and you need to say which one is more logical in your POV.. Please explain why.

1a: Time is constant, 1b: Time is flexible and can change
2a: a Particle can exist in two places at once, 2b: a particle can only exist in one place.
3a: It's okay to cut a (part of) child's peanus when he is 8 days old, 3b: It's wrong to cut a (part of) child's peanus
4a: It's okay to force a woman to cover her face, 4b: It's wrong to force a woman to cover her face
5a: It's okay to tell a child he will burn in hell, 5b: It is wrong to tell a child that he will burn in hell
6a: Elvis is still alive, 6b: Elvis is dead
7a: There are life on other planets, 7b: There are no life outside earth.
8a: Santa clause is real, 8b: Santa clause is a fairy tale
9a: Animals have no consciousness, 9b: Animals have consciousness
10a: if 10,000 people saw something, it must be true. 10b: Not everything the eye sees is true (even if seen by 10,000 people)

You will find what you are looking for. If you are not looking for God, you will never find him.

How do you know I haven't searched?
What if I looked so hard? What if i've spent so many years of my life searching yet haven't found even one small shred of a clue that there ever was a God?

The "proof and evidence" that you have for evolution is no more conclusive or provable than mine.

Lol... Try again.
It's like saying the proof our earth is not the center of the universe is no more conclusive than yours.

The evidence for his existence is all around you.

WHERE??? How the hell did I miss that?

You reject the originator of life and claim that life is just a endless series of fortunate mutations.

Lol.. Nope.. that's far from what I claim.
Whats a "Fortunate" mutation?

You are free to believe whatever you like,

Thanks You too.

just don't claim that science has eliminated God

I Have never even suggested such a thing. It is impossible.
Science will not, and never will be able to eliminate God. Just as science cannot eliminate Zeus or Thor or Pete's Dragon (Nice movie)

How do you exchange one fantasy for an even bigger one?

Show me one (ONE! only ONE!!!) thing humans EVER invented, that relies on a spiritual knowledge and works every time. Just one example of something that works the same everytime you use, and I will become a believer!!!!

He has messengers for that....I am one of them.

WOW! How nice for you.
I Guess I forgot to mention it before.. I Am too, a messenger of God..
Really.. Just had a quick chat with it the other night. It told me I must tell everyone to pay me 5$ or else they will forever be tortured in hell!
It true! You can't prove me wrong!!!

Cheers
(Waiting for my 5$ lol )

 

[Deeje]

I'm going off exactly what you just said. Would you like to re-word it?

OK, the conversation went something like this......

Deeje said: ↑
I can't do "hopeless" and I cannot believe that the miracle of life is "just an accident". You are welcome to your position but it makes no logical sense to me.

To which you replied...

No. You can't emotionally come to terms with it so you have to have a crutch. It isn't a logical but emotional based decision on your part. You said so yourself in the first sentence here. But the reality of our universe isn't subject to people's feelings.

Why would I need to reword it? "I can't do hopeless"...means that I cannot contemplate living this life without the hope of something better to come. We, collectively, as human beings, know that this is NOT the life we want to live. We have an inborn desire for love, peace and happiness in beautiful surroundings.....something that God gave to man in the beginning. He also gave us a spiritual side to our nature so that we could appreciate all that was gifted to us by a very generous benefactor, and we could show that love and respect for his provisions. That is the life I look forward to because the God who created the universe has guaranteed it. All we need to do is meet his conditions for citizenship in that world.....(which will be this world fixed up.)

The laws of nature is purely devoid of feelings.

Not completely. One has only to observe the maternal instinct to see that animals have feelings too.

Those we keep as pets in particular can demonstrate a range of emotions. How does your dog show that he is happy to see you?

If you want to get into free will and cognitive decision making skills or the development of chemical releases in the brain we can. However we were talking about the laws of the universe and how life evolved. Emotion has nothing to do with that except when talking about the evolutionary advantages of emotions and other complex brain functions.

The full complexity of functions in the human brain are as yet not fully known or understood. How can science explain the talents of servants, for example? The general population do not have these talents that seem to verge on the impossible. Pockets of genius are expressed by people who have deficiencies in other areas of life, and are demonstrated to a degree that even the best mathematical, musical or artistic minds can only dream about. Did these just evolve? What is the chance of these servants finding mates and procreating? Would you want to pass on the deficiencies that go with the genius? What would nature do?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

OK, the conversation went something like this......


To which you replied...


Why would I need to reword it? "I can't do hopeless"...means that I cannot contemplate living this life without the hope of something better to come. We, collectively, as human beings, know that this is NOT the life we want to live. We have an inborn desire for love, peace and happiness in beautiful surroundings.....something that God gave to man in the beginning. He also gave us a spiritual side to our nature so that we could appreciate all that was gifted to us by a very generous benefactor, and we could show that love and respect for his provisions. That is the life I look forward to because the God who created the universe has guaranteed it. All we need to do is meet his conditions for citizenship in that world.....(which will be this world fixed up.)



Not completely. One has only to observe the maternal instinct to see that animals have feelings too.

Those we keep as pets in particular can demonstrate a range of emotions. How does your dog show that he is happy to see you?

The full complexity of functions in the human brain are as yet not fully known or understood. How can science explain the talents of servants, for example? The general population do not have these talents that seem to verge on the impossible. Pockets of genius are expressed by people who have deficiencies in other areas of life, and are demonstrated to a degree that even the best mathematical, musical or artistic minds can only dream about. Did these just evolve? What is the chance of these servants finding mates and procreating? Would you want to pass on the deficiencies that go with the genius? What would nature do?

Hello my sister, hope you're well.

MoR said "the laws of nature is purely devoid of feelings", not nature.

Maybe MoR using "is" instead of (the more correct) "are", threw you off?

 

[Deeje]

Hello my sister, hope you're well.

Thank you...you too.

MoR said "the laws of nature is purely devoid of feelings", not nature.

Maybe MoR using "is" instead of (the more correct) "are", threw you off?

Perhaps.....or I may have misunderstood the intent of his statement. Laws in themselves are devoid of "feelings", but to my mind the lawgiver is not, so from that angle I see the Creator's "feelings" governing the laws of nature....or at least in the ones that pertain to life on earth. Maybe its a girl thing?

I also see the measure of protection that the laws of the universe offer to mankind on this tiny planet and I again discern God's feelings demonstrated in their outworking.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

OK, the conversation went something like this......


To which you replied...


Why would I need to reword it? "I can't do hopeless"...means that I cannot contemplate living this life without the hope of something better to come. We, collectively, as human beings, know that this is NOT the life we want to live. We have an inborn desire for love, peace and happiness in beautiful surroundings.....something that God gave to man in the beginning. He also gave us a spiritual side to our nature so that we could appreciate all that was gifted to us by a very generous benefactor, and we could show that love and respect for his provisions. That is the life I look forward to because the God who created the universe has guaranteed it. All we need to do is meet his conditions for citizenship in that world.....(which will be this world fixed up.)

You are saying right now that you cannot contemplate the world outside of your own worldview. This castrates any attempt at being persuasive or objective with your arguments. You are claiming that your beliefs on the matter are PURELY and FUNDAMENTALLY based on your own emotional inability to cope with a world that is not designed by an all loving god with promise of a perfect afterlife.

And the evidence poitns elswhere.

Not completely. One has only to observe the maternal instinct to see that animals have feelings too.

Those we keep as pets in particular can demonstrate a range of emotions. How does your dog show that he is happy to see you?

Sure. I don't doubt that. But that doesn't mean there is a god. Emotions mean nothing to gravity, electro magnetism, strong force, color force, chemistry ect. The only time it ever matters, as I sated in the last post, is when we talk about its development in biology.

The full complexity of functions in the human brain are as yet not fully known or understood. How can science explain the talents of servants, for example? The general population do not have these talents that seem to verge on the impossible. Pockets of genius are expressed by people who have deficiencies in other areas of life, and are demonstrated to a degree that even the best mathematical, musical or artistic minds can only dream about. Did these just evolve? What is the chance of these servants finding mates and procreating? Would you want to pass on the deficiencies that go with the genius? What would nature do?

We know far more now than we ever have about the brain and we will continue to advance further and further on the front. That isn't really an issue.

If you want to know about the study of savants and their talents there is a number of neurobiologists and neuropsychologists that work specifically in those fields. All you have to do is look them up to find the information you seek.

It wasn't necessarily evolution per se. The fact that we see so many it points to it not being a single genetic mutation but rather something that has the potential to happen to any of us under the right conditions.

What would nature do? I want that on a bracelet. Anyway it depends on the situation. If the deficets are not to large its possible they could mate. However natural selection tends to trend on the wary side. It is more likely that someone with a deficency but a savant skill would not be able to pass on their genes in the long run.

 

[Shad]

I think the 'caring' has more to do with eliminating a Higher Power of any sort...particularly one who might demand that you stop doing something that you want to keep on doing. Making humans into animals gives humans way more freedom and less accountability....don't you think? But has all this freedom and lack of accountability made the world a better place?

Considering many of the supporters of evolution, and those that accept it, are theists as much as you are your point is nonsense. You are creating a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory that evolution was developed to undermine the god concept, it wasn't. It just undermines your literialism.

I bring up lots of things because it is what I believe...I haven't seen anything that would sway me the other way at all.
All I see is a grasping at straws.....your theory is completely knee-capped when you expose the foundations upon which it is built. You have nothing concrete, but evolutionists pretend that it is. I believe that the house built on that foundation is about to collapse.

Yet the point is question is a non-sequitur. People didn't need to find out the origins of iron ore (atoms, atomic structure, process of nuclear synthesis which forms it) to understand how to use chemistry to forge iron or create steel.

The foundation of evolution itself is that life already exists. Do you doubt life already exists?

Father God....Mother Nature....I think you have chosen the wrong parent.

My point went over your head. The "God did it" explanation is no more useful than putting forward "nature did it". Yet you think your idea is useful. Hilarious

Biomimetics is an interesting branch of science that seeks to imitate the the things found in nature and adapt them for use in modern commercial applications. It always intrigues me that you need intelligent scientists to copy what "nature" did, but the original didn't need an intelligent designer at all.....

So what. You just seems to not to like something rather than provide arguments.

 

[Deeje]

You are saying right now that you cannot contemplate the world outside of your own worldview. This castrates any attempt at being persuasive or objective with your arguments. You are claiming that your beliefs on the matter are PURELY and FUNDAMENTALLY based on your own emotional inability to cope with a world that is not designed by an all loving god with promise of a perfect afterlife.

No I am not.

I am saying that my feelings are a factor, but certainly not the only factor as I have demonstrated throughout this thread. Design when it involves complex interactions incorporating many independent systems that are all designed to work together, does not just pop up out of nowhere. Our bodies are made of complex interacting systems that all contribute to the human being functioning at even a basic level. Take any one of them out of the equation and what happens? Each system is beautifully integrated but no one with intelligence is responsible, according to science.

And the evidence poitns elswhere.

What you accept as "evidence" is meaningless to me because it is not based on provable science. It is all supposition and conjecture leading to a biased interpretation of the "evidence", so it is hardly something that cancels out my Creator.
I have "evidence" too, and I accept it because I can see with my own eyes that the designs in nature are the product of a designer with a definite purpose to everything he has made.

Emotions mean nothing to gravity, electro magnetism, strong force, color force, chemistry ect. The only time it ever matters, as I sated in the last post, is when we talk about its development in biology.

Laws need someone to make them. There has to be a lawmaker. How does a law that has serious consequences when it is violated, invent itself?

We know far more now than we ever have about the brain and we will continue to advance further and further on the front. That isn't really an issue.

The human brain is designed to last way longer that our short lifetime would suggest. We have an endless potential to solve problems, but unfortunately it has been suggested by scientists, that man uses only a tenth of the brain capacity on the average. Imagine if he had the power to unlock that potential. It appears that savants have done that in limited pockets, overcompensating for other deficits.

Savant syndrome - Wikipedia

How can science understand the brain without understanding the mind? What is the mind? Why does it take two separate branches of science to study and treat each? The mind obviously involves the brain, but how does science explain personality and how the mind affects our thoughts, emotions and actions?

It wasn't necessarily evolution per se. The fact that we see so many it points to it not being a single genetic mutation but rather something that has the potential to happen to any of us under the right conditions.

How many "right conditions" are we talking about? Would the "right conditions" have the same odds as perhaps winning the lottery millions of times in a row? Isn't the whole theory based on the possibility of winning the lottery millions of times in succession? Just lucky?

If the deficets are not to large its possible they could mate. However natural selection tends to trend on the wary side. It is more likely that someone with a deficency but a savant skill would not be able to pass on their genes in the long run.

Yes, so even if there is a beneficial genetic hiccup, there is no guarantee that it will be passed on. How does "nature" know when to select a good mutation?

 

[Deeje]

Considering many of the supporters of evolution, and those that accept it, are theists as much as you are your point is nonsense. You are creating a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory that evolution was developed to undermine the god concept, it wasn't. It just undermines your literialism.

The Bible is my textbook; the inspired writings of the one who created life....that gives him credentials that trump the puny knowledge of mere men. He is the inventor of the science they attempt to study.

Evolution was designed to eliminate the Creator in the minds of unbelievers, but it was also placed in the path of theists to see if it would make them compromise...to sell out under the pressure of atheistic science. I know what I see. Peer pressure is rife in the scientific community. You can choose not to believe that, but it doesn't alter anything.

People didn't need to find out the origins of iron ore (atoms, atomic structure, process of nuclear synthesis which forms it) to understand how to use chemistry to forge iron or create steel.

You are right, they did not need to know it's origin or its composition, to put it to work for themselves....yet when humans began to use iron, (about 3,000 years ago) how much actual scientific knowledge did they have? Who taught them to make something like iron out of rocks buried in the earth? Who gave them the ingenuity to put it to use? What other creature on earth does what man does? Why have no other species "evolved" to their level of intelligence or capability?

The foundation of evolution itself is that life already exists. Do you doubt life already exists?

I don't know anyone who has doubts about that, but you don't seem to realize that if the Creator revealed himself tomorrow, your whole theory falls in a heap. Eliminating the cause of life from existence allows a false premise to form the foundations of your whole belief system. Its a shaky building.

My point went over your head. The "God did it" explanation is no more useful than putting forward "nature did it". Yet you think your idea is useful. Hilarious

I think it equally hilarious that you think evolution is a proven science. You think that idea is useful....for what?

The Creator at least gives his worshippers a wonderful and satisfying hope for the future and a reason for the current state of man.....what does evolution offer for its proponents? Extinction?

So what. You just seems to not to like something rather than provide arguments.

Guess you haven't read much of this thread then......there is plenty of argument.

Can you answer the question then? If nature designed things so well that scientists want to mimic them, why does it take intelligence to copy the original, whom you say needed no designer?

 

[Shad]

The Bible is my textbook; the inspired writings of the one who created life....that gives him credentials that trump the puny knowledge of mere men. He is the inventor of the science they attempt to study.

Subjective conclusion to support an assertion, nothing more.

Evolution was designed to eliminate the Creator in the minds of unbelievers, but it was also placed in the path of theists to see if it would make them compromise...to sell out under the pressure of atheistic science. I know what I see. Peer pressure is rife in the scientific community. You can choose not to believe that, but it doesn't alter anything.

No it wasn't. Besides evolution only topples one form of creationism. It does nothing to topple creationism as in the First Cause. Hence why the Catholic Church endorses evolution.

You are right, they did not need to know it's origin or its composition, to put it to work for themselves....yet when humans began to use iron, (about 3,000 years ago) how much actual scientific knowledge did they have?

They had an understanding of basic chemistry. After all they figured out how to make bronze.

Who taught them to make something like iron out of rocks buried in the earth?

Early iron was sourced from surface such as peat bogs as found in England. Deep mining was not developed for centuries after the use of iron had already been developed to a basic level.

Who gave them the ingenuity to put it to use? What other creature on earth does what man does? Why have no other species "evolved" to their level of intelligence or capability?

Irrelevant questions. All you are doing is injecting a teleological view point as if I must accept this as fact just because you happen to believe it.

I don't know anyone who has doubts about that, but you don't seem to realize that if the Creator revealed himself tomorrow, your whole theory falls in a heap.

No it doesn't as evolution can easily be a mechanism used by God. If God is all-knowing God knows not only the outcome but all possible outcomes of this mechanism. If God can not use such a mechanism then you undermines the idea of prophecy as it involves free will. Either God is all-knowing or Gods knowledge is provisional.

Eliminating the cause of life from existence allows a false premise to form the foundations of your whole belief system. Its a shaky building.

Too bad evolution was never a foundation of what I believe. Before telling me what my views are maybe you should take the time to ask.

I think it equally hilarious that you think evolution is a proven science. You think that idea is useful....for what?

Medicine, heard of it?

The Creator at least gives his worshippers a wonderful and satisfying hope for the future and a reason for the current state of man.....what does evolution offer for its proponents?

It is your opinion that God does this. You could be wrong thus you spend your time for no reward. The reason for the state of man is based on assertions, nothing more. Besides you are making an assumption that evolution needs to offer something as if it is a thing that can make offers, it doesn't.

Guess you haven't read much of this thread then......there is plenty of argument.

I see a lot of bad arguments. The amount of arguments does not indicate good arguments.

Can you answer the question then? If nature designed things so well that scientists want to mimic them, why does it take intelligence to copy the original, whom you say needed no designer?

As the very idea of applying structures found in nature to manufactured products requires someone to do it. I guess you are oblivious to the very idea you are communicating as this question is a no-starter.

Besides reproduction is a form of copying which requires no intelligence such as single-celled organism asexual reproduction.

 

[savagewind]

I see a lot of bad arguments. The amount of arguments does not indicate good arguments.

There is at least one good argument she offered. She says tthe parts of a life form all working together for it proves a designer.

Now, my argument is that it wasn't once, twice, a hundred times........

How many known species on Earth?
Date: August 24, 2011 Source: Census of Marine Life. Summary: About 8.7 million(give or take 1.3 million) is the new, estimated total number of species on Earth -- the most precise calculation ever offered -- with 6.5 million species on land and 2.2 million in oceans.

How many species now extinct?

More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species,[2] that ever lived on Earth are estimated to be extinct.[3][4][5] Estimates on the number of Earth's current species range from 10 million to 14 million,[6] of which about 1.2 million have been documented and over 86 percent have not yet been described.[7]

How old is Earth?

4.543 billion years

How many different animals ever on Earth?

I know there are more species than there are different animals.

I found a figure for the estimated different species ever which is 5 billion.

THEN we shouldn't give life time for evolving before the first living cell. When was that?

This is a surprise as it has seemed to have taken only .7 billion years from nothing to life.

Do the math. I think it doesn't work.

I have to be doing the math wrong because I see that in (let's give it five) 5 billion years there was almost one complete functioning and reproducing animal each year. When someone says show me an evolving species he or she isn't full of ****. You know?

Why? Because in two hundred years, which is a lot longer than one, there hasn't been a specimen to prove the no god theory.

Unless, of course, years used to be different then.

I can't believe life was without God The Design[er] because the math doesn't work for me.

But, I suspect someone might try.

 

[savagewind]

They say the Universe is 14 billion years and OMG they say the number of species on the Earth ever is 5 billion.

And, the math works for you?

 

[ArtieE]

I have to be doing the math wrong because I see that in (let's give it five) 5 billion years there was almost one complete functioning and reproducing animal each year. When someone says show me an evolving species he or she isn't full of ****. You know?

So God designed and produced 5 billion species over a period of how many years? Or when did he produce what?

 

[jonathan180iq]

They say the Universe is 14 billion years

13.7 Billion, give or take a few. Observationally verified.

and OMG they say the number of species on the Earth ever is 5 billion.

No they don't. The number of species on Earth is around 9 Million. You're the one who has brought up the overall number of organisms. 5 billion is a very small number, really. There are something like 7 billion people. Total organisms range in the trillions, if not higher.

And, the math works for you?

What about the math do you actually a problem with?

A billion years is 1,000 million... Think about that for a while.

Count to a million 13,000 times. That's how old the Universe is.
Counting to a million 4 thousand times shows you how old the Earth is. It's a staggering number.

I don't understand why the math is problematic for you.
Every human event that you've ever heard about occurred less than ten thousand years ago. If you multiplied all of human history 10,000 more times, you're still only into the hundreds of millions of years. How many people do you think could exist in 100 million years? Multiply that times 10 more and you're into the 1 billions... You're not giving much thought to the actual amount of time that we're talking about here.

1 (Ones)
10 (Tens) *We exist on this timeline.
100 (Hundreds)
1,000 (Thousands)
10,000 (Ten Thousands)
100,000 (Hundred Thousands)
1,000,000 (Millions)
10,000,000 (Ten Millions)
100,000,000 (Hundred Millions)
1,000,000,000 (Billions)
10,000,000,000 (Ten Billions)

 

[savagewind]

So God designed and produced 5 billion species over a period of how many years? Or when did he produce what?

I do not care to argue against the evolution of species. Each species appeared when it did. BUT, I can't believe that some help didn't happen. Each positive development was guided, not by no plan, but by some intelligence agent. I believe in intelligent DESIGN. The argument is simply designed versus no design. Design is associated with a plan. No design has no plan.

 

[ArtieE]

I do not care to argue against the evolution of species. Each species appeared when it did. BUT, I can't believe that some help didn't happen. Each positive development was guided, not by no plan, but by some intelligence agent. I believe in intelligent DESIGN. The argument is simply designed versus no design. Design is associated with a plan. No design has no plan.

I don't follow. Are you now saying that 5 billion species were designed but not created?