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Just Accidental?

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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
There hasn't been a single case that hasn't been refuted. But we knew from the get go that you don't deal in facts or information.

Are you hearing yourself? Are you not the pot calling the kettle black?
You assume I have always been a proponent of evolution? I was raised by a conservative YEC christian family and had my primary education in the bible belt where they put evolution in quotations. It wasn't really until middle school/high school that I was educated enough to be able to question it. Evolution and the evidences of it shattered my worldview because it was solid and my worldview was not. I have since learned to adapt to new information to the best of my ability.


"Seems like"? That sounds familiar.
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Who said someone had to make the Lawmaker? He is not a biological entity and therefore not quantifiable by any human means. No one created God, he is an eternal being with as much time behind him as there is in front of him. Can anyone comprehend an infinite being?....I can't, not with a finite brain, finite experience and no real information about the subject.
Why cannot the universe or multiverse be infinte and without need of creation? What is the argument that god doesn't need it and god only? I mean this is one of the oldest questions and I"ve never heard an answer to it other than "because....god....god trumps everything! GAWD!"


It's a strange thing about aging......it only happens in your body and as long as your brain is not affected by dementia, age is irrelevant. Ask any older person in relatively good health how "old" they feel in their mind?
My mother is 92 and as sharp as a tack mentally, but she is physically restricted in a lot of ways.
She is very frustrated because her 'mind wants to write checks her body can't cash'.
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Age is a state of being that humans find hard to deal with....it feels entirely wrong to get old. It is an indignity and even though death comes to all, it feel completely foreign to lose the ones we love. We are the only species who can contemplate our own death and losing loved ones to accidents or disease is a constant worry for us. It doesn't seem to affect animals the way it affects us.

The Bible explains why....we were not designed to die. Aging and death are not programmed into us. We were never meant to lose the ones we love.
We are though. Well not designed by the way you use it but we are genetically predisposed to death. The brain has a limit. The body has a limit. Death is the most natural thing. Biologically you have zero basis to say that we aren't designed to die.


Yes, they are designed to operate that way. Having a brain can even keep a body functioning at a vegetative level, but the mind is not plugged in. Therefore the person is absent though the body is "alive" and breathing. Who is the "person" who lives in the brain? Where do they go when death happens? Why do we collectively feel like this life can't be all there is?
The brain dies and the cognitive functions that we often call "us" dissapears. We are nothing but a wave of chemical energy.


"Improbable" means "not likely to be true or to happen.

synonyms: unlikely, not likely, doubtful, dubious, debatable, questionable, uncertain; More
difficult to believe, implausible, far-fetched, fanciful;
unthinkable, inconceivable, unimaginable, unimagined, incredible

antonyms: probable, certain
unexpected and apparently inauthentic.

synonyms: inauthentic, unconvincing, unbelievable, incredible, ridiculous, absurd, preposterous;
contrived, laboured, strained, forced; informalhard to swallow"

Evolution to me fits that definition. The probability of life arising by chance....is nil.
Show me the math. Or is it just a hunch?


No they are just the fortunate flukes of nature that keep us alive. Not designed to promote and perpetuate life on this "Goldilocks" planet at all. Saying that "there could be dozens if not hundreds of developments of life just within our galaxy alone" is nothing more than wishful thinking. Science cannot "know" whether there is 'any' kind of life out there beyond the realms of earth...it can only speculate. But speculation has turned into possibility from a position where everything "suggested" by science is treated as likelihood. Suggestions and conjecture are turned into facts. Who said? :shrug: I don't buy what they are selling.
Speculation based on math is a very useful tool. One that has done our species more good than all the religions of the world combined. You don't have to buy what science is selling. Its free. But if you still don't want it then fine. Just don't brainwashi children and don't pass laws based on your "beliefs".


You are assuming that all humans were once primitive cave dwellers who hunted mammoths. Who said? You assume that humans have experienced progression down through time from an ape-like creature to modern man.....and we have progressed in many ways, but there is no real evidence that all humans were primitive cave dwellers in the past. Your first premise colors everything. We have primitive peoples even today who live the way they have for centuries. They co-exist with advanced societies in this world, so the only thing it proves is that isolation from the mainstream cuts people off from the progress that happens elsewhere. Many ancient cultures were very advance in certain areas, especially architecture. The cities they built with no technology are amazing.

The Bible explains everything about the situation that humans enjoyed at the beginning, how they lost it and how the Creator gets it all back. I like the logic and the hope it gives for a better future.....and it is no more a stretch of my imagination than science's theory of evolution. You can believe that creation is millions of fortunate accidents with no direction, but I cannot.
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It wasn't necessarily caves. That part isn't actually very accurate. But all ancient civilizations were at one time hunter gatherers. I think your time frames are off by a bit. For any of the savants to have passed on their genes and impacted the species it would have to significantly predate the first known structures of man.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
There is at least one good argument she offered. She says tthe parts of a life form all working together for it proves a designer.

She has not established that the parts working together are designed, designed at the same time, designed to work together nor this was a plan. For example birds using the branches of trees for nest is an adaption of bird rather than that the branches are made for birds

Now, my argument is that it wasn't once, twice, a hundred times........

How many species now extinct?



How old is Earth?



How many different animals ever on Earth?

I know there are more species than there are different animals.

I found a figure for the estimated different species ever which is 5 billion.

THEN we shouldn't give life time for evolving before the first living cell. When was that?

This is a surprise as it has seemed to have taken only .7 billion years from nothing to life.

Do the math. I think it doesn't work.

I have to be doing the math wrong because I see that in (let's give it five) 5 billion years there was almost one complete functioning and reproducing animal each year. When someone says show me an evolving species he or she isn't full of ****. You know?

Why? Because in two hundred years, which is a lot longer than one, there hasn't been a specimen to prove the no god theory.

Unless, of course, years used to be different then.

I can't believe life was without God The Design[er] because the math doesn't work for me.

But, I suspect someone might try.

Argument from incredibility. You are unable to fathom how this happens so you put forward God, nothing more.
 

Shad

Veteran Member

It was rejected by biologists, peer-review, and the judge at the Dover Trial. The judge is a Christian.

Who said someone had to make the Lawmaker? He is not a biological entity and therefore not quantifiable by any human means. No one created God, he is an eternal being with as much time behind him as there is in front of him. Can anyone comprehend an infinite being?....I can't, not with a finite brain, finite experience and no real information about the subject.

You make a claim then state the subject is incomprehensible. Pure sophistry and definition games. Merely tacking on definitions to something does not make it true. "The universe is uncaused" There I just defined the universe in a way that makes God useless. See how easy it is?


No they are just the fortunate flukes of nature that keep us alive. Not designed to promote and perpetuate life on this "Goldilocks" planet at all. Saying that "there could be dozens if not hundreds of developments of life just within our galaxy alone" is nothing more than wishful thinking.

I guess you do not understand what the word "could" means

You are assuming that all humans were once primitive cave dwellers who hunted mammoths. Who said? You assume that humans have experienced progression down through time from an ape-like creature to modern man.....and we have progressed in many ways, but there is no real evidence that all humans were primitive cave dwellers in the past.

Actually humans have used caves for many purposes for centuries. There is an example of such in Nottingham. Another is in Derinkuyu. So yes there is evidence but since you do not know this due to your unwillingness to do any research you made a statement in error.

Many ancient cultures were very advance in certain areas, especially architecture. The cities they built with no technology are amazing.

These cities were built with technology of their time. Again your ignorance of a topic you bring up causes you to make an statement in error. You are equating modern technology as if it is the only form of technology, it isn't

The Bible explains everything about the situation that humans enjoyed at the beginning, how they lost it and how the Creator gets it all back. I like the logic and the hope it gives for a better future.....and it is no more a stretch of my imagination than science's theory of evolution. You can believe that creation is millions of fortunate accidents with no direction, but I cannot.
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A story, nothing more.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
She has not established that the parts working together are designed, designed at the same time, designed to work together nor this was a plan. For example birds using the branches of trees for nest is an adaption of bird rather than that the branches are made for birds

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I do not think so. The systems in one organism work together. All the parts of one cell work together. You have to admit that one part does not know it needs another part to function.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I do not think so. The systems in one organism work together. All the parts of one cell work together. You have to admit that one part does not know it needs another part to function.

Irrelevant. This only states the systems which work are successful and systems which do not work are not successful. It is a basic observation. Beside these systems can and do fail hence cancer.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There hasn't been a single case that hasn't been refuted. But we knew from the get go that you don't deal in facts or information.
But that is just the point....science doesn't either. It deals in speculation masquerading as facts. You cannot refute anything if you have no "facts"......I can't "prove" that my God exists, and you cannot "prove" that evolution ever took place.
It boils down to a choice between belief systems.
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You assume I have always been a proponent of evolution? I was raised by a conservative YEC christian family and had my primary education in the bible belt where they put evolution in quotations. It wasn't really until middle school/high school that I was educated enough to be able to question it. Evolution and the evidences of it shattered my worldview because it was solid and my worldview was not. I have since learned to adapt to new information to the best of my ability.

I used to be a staunch evolutionist......so I guess we have had opposite experiences, except that I was raised Anglican, left the church to become more familiar with science's explanation of why we are here, and found it devoid of any real convincing proof for what it claimed. The more I studied evolution, the more creation screamed "DESIGN" to a point where I knew there had to be a God and a reasonable explanation for how and why we are here. YEC is nonsense as any fool can see, but so is organic evolution. There is somewhere in the middle where I stand and can combine science with creation and happily not sacrifice one for the other, (as many people appear to have done.) There is room in the Bible for an old earth and a very long period of creation.

Why cannot the universe or multiverse be infinte and without need of creation? What is the argument that god doesn't need it and god only? I mean this is one of the oldest questions and I"ve never heard an answer to it other than "because....god....god trumps everything! GAWD!"

You are talking about a being whose "life" (or existence) and abilities are beyond human comprehension at present.
You demand knowledge of something that you have no way of processing. We will know all we need to in due time.

We are though. Well not designed by the way you use it but we are genetically predisposed to death. The brain has a limit. The body has a limit. Death is the most natural thing. Biologically you have zero basis to say that we aren't designed to die.

Doesn't it strike you as strange that death in the animal kingdom for the majority of creatures is just accepted. Some species, especially those who operate in "family" groups, like elephants or apes, might appear to treat death a little differently, but it is more about adjusting their programming than genuine grief over a loss in the troupe.
Humans are the only species who can contemplate their own death. We are the only ones who can process concepts like past present and future. So imagining the possibility of dying or losing loved ones in death causes us great distress. Why are we the only ones with this ability?

Scientists have acknowledged that the human brain has the capacity to last many lifetimes.

This little exercise was posted in "Scientific American"....

"The human brain consists of about one billion neurons. Each neuron forms about 1,000 connections to other neurons, amounting to more than a trillion connections. If each neuron could only help store a single memory, running out of space would be a problem. You might have only a few gigabytes of storage space, similar to the space in an iPod or a USB flash drive. Yet neurons combine so that each one helps with many memories at a time, exponentially increasing the brain’s memory storage capacity to something closer to around 2.5 petabytes (or a million gigabytes). For comparison, if your brain worked like a digital video recorder in a television, 2.5 petabytes would be enough to hold three million hours of TV shows. You would have to leave the TV running continuously for more than 300 years to use up all that storage."

What Is the Memory Capacity of the Human Brain?

So if science could accurately measure the capacity of the human brain, it would look something like that. Not designed for the short 70 or 80 years of the average lifespan....but many lifetimes.

When you speak of limits, science really has no answers as to why we die. The process of cell renewal in the human body should theoretically go on indefinitely, but something happens to slow it down and then stop it altogether. The Bible calls that "sin" which simply means the loss of perfect function.

The brain dies and the cognitive functions that we often call "us" dissapears. We are nothing but a wave of chemical energy.

"We" are so much more than that. "We" do not have a way to process death or tragedy, and yet it happens to us all too frequently. Some of us never recover.

If the personality can die before the body, it is clear that we are more than just a wave of energy. We are more than mere drivers in a fleshly vehicle. Why is it that we have certain expectations that are collectively felt regarding beauty or ugliness, attractiveness and repulsiveness? Who set that standard for humankind?

Show me the math. Or is it just a hunch?

Science cannot make a blade of grass. It cannot produce "life" unless it has life to pass on in some form. It isn't math or a hunch...its a fact and science cannot argue with it. Even having the right environment for life to thrive will not make it happen without a first cause.

Speculation based on math is a very useful tool. One that has done our species more good than all the religions of the world combined. You don't have to buy what science is selling. Its free. But if you still don't want it then fine. Just don't brainwash children and don't pass laws based on your "beliefs".

LOL...here we go again....
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What good has science done in this world that is not offset by something more devastatingly evil? When we see how polluted the earth is, tell me if it was religion or science who created that problem? What science is selling is not FREE....the cost is actually more than what the production was worth. We are all paying for it in one way or another....and our earth is being exploited by greedy men using science to decimate the whole planet. How much is science used to destroy life and property, rather than to promote life and health?

I could also ask that science stops trying to "brainwash" our children by forcing evolution on them at school as if it were a proven fact. Call it a theory by all means, but don't penalize our children for wanting to have a choice in this matter.

As to passing laws, there is nothing in the Bible about advocating government policy by promoting what the Bible teaches. That should be entirely voluntary. You cannot legislate people's morals, feelings or motivations.

It wasn't necessarily caves. That part isn't actually very accurate. But all ancient civilizations were at one time hunter gatherers. I think your time frames are off by a bit.

Since the Creator supplied food sources in abundance for both man and animals, it is not surprising that 'hunter/gatherers' were found in many cultures.
"From about 7000 BCE in Greece, farming economies were progressively adopted in Europe, though areas farther west, such as Britain, were not affected for two millennia and Scandinavia not until even later. The period from the beginning of agriculture to the widespread use of bronze about 2300 bce is called the Neolithic Period."

history of Europe - The Neolithic Period (Britannica)

It is interesting to me that with the fall in Eden, Adam was told that he would "eat bread" in "the sweat of his face", necessitating that he plant grain and harvest it. The opposite to what he enjoyed in the garden, where he had been given a wide variety of fruit as his staple diet. This is I believe the beginning of subsistence farming.

For any of the savants to have passed on their genes and impacted the species it would have to significantly predate the first known structures of man.

Really? How would you know that and how would you prove it?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It was rejected by biologists, peer-review, and the judge at the Dover Trial. The judge is a Christian.

The term "Christian" is obviously open to interpretation. And wasn't the school wanting to promote YEC?
So apart from the "Christian" judge, how many others in the cited group would openly object to anything science proffers as evidence for evolution?
Was the "Christian" judge swayed by a convincing argument that the evidence revealed an old earth?
I don't accept YEC either....So I would have supported the truth.....both sides were wrong.
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You make a claim then state the subject is incomprehensible. Pure sophistry and definition games. Merely tacking on definitions to something does not make it true. "The universe is uncaused" There I just defined the universe in a way that makes God useless. See how easy it is?

Yep, really easy until you have to confront him. I believe that we all will one day. He will prove to you that he created the whole kit and kaboodle....not that it will make any difference by then.

"The universe was purposefully created"...there, I just redefined your definition. :)

I guess you do not understand what the word "could" means

Oh, but I do.....it is a suggestion......not a fact. Just because something "could" have happened, doesn't necessarily mean that it did. You have to be able to prove it. I have no proof for my Creator and you no proof that evolution ever happened....where does that leave us? We each have to decide which camp we belong to.

Actually humans have used caves for many purposes for centuries. There is an example of such in Nottingham. Another is in Derinkuyu. So yes there is evidence but since you do not know this due to your unwillingness to do any research you made a statement in error.

Oh dear, there you go assuming again. Did I say there were no cave dwellers?

There are still cave dwellers in the world. I was making the point that not all humans once lived in caves as evolution suggests.

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These guys are a figment of someone's imagination. They were never our ancestors. This is not a photograph.....but you knew that...right?

These cities were built with technology of their time. Again your ignorance of a topic you bring up causes you to make an statement in error. You are equating modern technology as if it is the only form of technology, it isn't

I would call the construction of the pyramids and the ancient cities like Babylon, a feat of man power and ingenuity. What ignorance am I displaying? The technology I referred to is modern construction equipment that is available today. Imagine trying to construct a skyscraper without today's technology.
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A story, nothing more.

I don't see anyone with a big stick making you believe it.....do you?

I see evolution as an equally unsubstantiated story. But hey, if it floats your boat, then fair enough....

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it doesn't float mine.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The term "Christian" is obviously open to interpretation. And wasn't the school wanting to promote YEC?
So apart from the "Christian" judge, how many others in the cited group would openly object to anything science proffers as evidence for evolution?
Was the "Christian" judge swayed by a convincing argument that the evidence revealed an old earth?
I don't accept YEC either....So I would have supported the truth.....both sides were wrong.
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Yep, really easy until you have to confront him. I believe that we all will one day. He will prove to you that he created the whole kit and kaboodle....not that it will make any difference by then.

"The universe was purposefully created"...there, I just redefined your definition. :)



Oh, but I do.....it is a suggestion......not a fact. Just because something "could" have happened, doesn't necessarily mean that it did. You have to be able to prove it. I have no proof for my Creator and you no proof that evolution ever happened....where does that leave us? We each have to decide which camp we belong to.



Oh dear, there you go assuming again. Did I say there were no cave dwellers?

There are still cave dwellers in the world. I was making the point that not all humans once lived in caves as evolution suggests.

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These guys are a figment of someone's imagination. They were never our ancestors. This is not a photograph.....but you knew that...right?



I would call the construction of the pyramids and the ancient cities like Babylon, a feat of man power and ingenuity. What ignorance am I displaying? The technology I referred to is modern construction equipment that is available today. Imagine trying to construct a skyscraper without today's technology.
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I don't see anyone with a big stick making you believe it.....do you?

I see evolution as an equally unsubstantiated story. But hey, if it floats your boat, then fair enough....

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it doesn't float mine.

So, your boat is the Titanic?

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
When you speak of limits, science really has no answers as to why we die. The process of cell renewal in the human body should theoretically go on indefinitely, but something happens to slow it down and then stop it altogether. The Bible calls that "sin" which simply means the loss of perfect function.

Can a perfectly functioning brain sin?

Ciao

- viole
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
("look around at the pretty ducks" kind of stuff.) That was funny! I'm not being facetious. That was pretty good!

Deeje and I have been taught to have an 'expansive-viewpoint style', I guess you could say, where every day we see events and occurrences (between governments, and in people's lives) which are evidences that confirm what the Scriptures in the Bible tell us.
Thank you, I think.

Confirming what the Scriptures say doesn't prove the existence of god any more than pictures of ducks confirm the existence of the specific god you believe in.

Do you totally discount all the paranormal activity that happens in the world? I mean from séances, to Ouija boards, to fortune tellers, to ancestor-spirit worship? It's too pervasive! (And these are activities God's Word condemns! Why?) Sure, I'll give you that maybe most is fake (and the fake stuff works into the plan, too), but not everything.
I discount seances and Ouija boards as evidence for the existence of ghosts or spirits or whatever people want to call them.

Fortune telling is a scam, in my opinion. The good ones are quite skilled in their techniques of deception, I'll give them that. But there's no evidence to indicate that they are talking to the spirits of dead people. Houdini spent a good deal of his life exposing such people as the frauds they are. Ask yourself, if it's not a scam, how come all "fortune tellers" aren't lottery winners?

If you want to say that these things are fake most of the time but not all of the time, how do you suggest we go about determining which are fake and which are authentic?

And you know what? I'm sure as an atheist you think, 'when you're dead, that's it..... you're gone." Deeje and I agree with you! (Although our belief is that this state of nonexistence won't last forever, per the Bible. But it is for now.) Then why is this paranormal ghost stuff so ingrained in almost every culture?
You're gonna need more than that to prove the existence of ghosts and the paranormal. Do you believe in dragons and trolls too?


What about people's attitudes? Almost everyone says they want peace, but it just doesn't happen; too much turmoil in society. Why, if so many want peace?
Because some don't want peace. Because we're all competing for the same resources. Because we're made up of all different kinds of personalities. Because we've all had different experiences in life that have shaped us into what we are.

And then, we have divisive religion. Even some that tells you, 'God will bless you if you kill others when you kill yourself! What!!
Why does Islam have about 40 different sects, and Judaism have about 40....but Christianity has 41,000??! If you're bent on deception, nothing like adding more hay to hide the needle!!

We are aware of who is behind the extent of this, and all the other confusing issues facing man. It simply fits the Bible's descriptions.

There are other issues we see, too.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I see frustration in the eyes of people who try to make the world a better place. They are finding out that what little they can do is not even a drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of the problem.....or the ones they try to help take advantage of them. Its like the church programs I see in my neighborhood. They invite the disadvantaged and addicted ones whose life is one dreary addicted haze, with poor diet and poor health and no hope, and try to offer them a place to stay and some hot meals. Its hand to mouth charity and it never works. You need to teach the man to fish, not just put food in his belly. They will never respect others until they can respect themselves.
You have a much more negative attitude about the world than I and some others do, I guess.

Drug addicts need to be detoxed and they need a good support team to help them deal with the underlying issues that led to them becoming a drug addict in the first place.

But there's absolutely nothing wrong in feeding starving people.


And it does it badly whilst pretending that a powerful Creator is an insult to their intelligence. Who cares how life changed if you have no idea how it began?
Is that not the elephant in the room?
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The theory of evolution explains the diversity of life on the plan quite well, actually. Which is why it's the prevailing scientific theory on the subject.

Evolution doesn't speak to the existence or non-existence of god. It is quiet on the subject.

God simply isn't required to explain the diversity of life on earth in scientific terms.

And that guy in the wheelchair over there can't even convey his purpose in life because a car accident left him permanently brain damaged and he has to live his life in a aged care home even though he is only 25 years old. If there is no other life than this one, what about all those who never even get to live it? There is a reason why we humans have a collective expectation that this isn't the life we were meant to live. We all have a hope of a better life somewhere, whether we acknowledge it or not.
If that is reality, then that is reality, and we just have to face it. Some people's lives are short and tragic. Some are long and heroic. And most fall somewhere in between.

Like I told you before, I'd love to think that my father is in some great place somewhere enjoying some great life he never got to have when he was alive. Because I I'd even go so far as to say I hope for that. But hoping for it doesn't make it true, and I can't force myself to believe something just because I want it to be true.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No I am not.
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I am saying that my feelings are a factor, but certainly not the only factor as I have demonstrated throughout this thread. Design when it involves complex interactions incorporating many independent systems that are all designed to work together, does not just pop up out of nowhere. Our bodies are made of complex interacting systems that all contribute to the human being functioning at even a basic level. Take any one of them out of the equation and what happens? Each system is beautifully integrated but no one with intelligence is responsible, according to science.
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Except for that pesky complex god you believe in. Then you suddenly just throw this logic you're trying to employ right out the window.


What you accept as "evidence" is meaningless to me because it is not based on provable science. It is all supposition and conjecture leading to a biased interpretation of the "evidence", so it is hardly something that cancels out my Creator.
I have "evidence" too, and I accept it because I can see with my own eyes that the designs in nature are the product of a designer with a definite purpose to everything he has made.



Laws need someone to make them. There has to be a lawmaker. How does a law that has serious consequences when it is violated, invent itself?
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The human brain is designed to last way longer that our short lifetime would suggest. We have an endless potential to solve problems, but unfortunately it has been suggested by scientists, that man uses only a tenth of the brain capacity on the average. Imagine if he had the power to unlock that potential. It appears that savants have done that in limited pockets, overcompensating for other deficits.

Savant syndrome - Wikipedia

How can science understand the brain without understanding the mind? What is the mind? Why does it take two separate branches of science to study and treat each? The mind obviously involves the brain, but how does science explain personality and how the mind affects our thoughts, emotions and actions?



How many "right conditions" are we talking about? Would the "right conditions" have the same odds as perhaps winning the lottery millions of times in a row? Isn't the whole theory based on the possibility of winning the lottery millions of times in succession? Just lucky? :shrug:



Yes, so even if there is a beneficial genetic hiccup, there is no guarantee that it will be passed on. :D How does "nature" know when to select a good mutation?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The Bible is my textbook; the inspired writings of the one who created life....that gives him credentials that trump the puny knowledge of mere men. He is the inventor of the science they attempt to study.

Evolution was designed to eliminate the Creator in the minds of unbelievers, but it was also placed in the path of theists to see if it would make them compromise...to sell out under the pressure of atheistic science. I know what I see. Peer pressure is rife in the scientific community. You can choose not to believe that, but it doesn't alter anything.
This is utter nonsense. And you know it, given that we've been over this several times (as have others on the thread) where we all pointed out to you that both religious and non-religious people alike, all throughout human history have contemplated the evolution of life on this planet in some form or another. Nobody came up with it to eliminate any creator - in fact, many contemplated evolution in light of a creator, or in hopes of finding a creator. Darwin certainly didn't put together his comprehensive theory to eliminate any potential Creator.

You need to stop starting over and repeating the same exact inaccurate talking points as though there are not 73 prior pages to this thread where they have been repeatedly addressed. Unless you want to come off as disingenuous. Or at least if you're going to repeat it, try coming up with some actual evidence backing up your talking point. Otherwise, all you have is empty rhetoric.



You are right, they did not need to know it's origin or its composition, to put it to work for themselves....yet when humans began to use iron, (about 3,000 years ago) how much actual scientific knowledge did they have? Who taught them to make something like iron out of rocks buried in the earth? Who gave them the ingenuity to put it to use? What other creature on earth does what man does? Why have no other species "evolved" to their level of intelligence or capability?



I don't know anyone who has doubts about that, but you don't seem to realize that if the Creator revealed himself tomorrow, your whole theory falls in a heap. Eliminating the cause of life from existence allows a false premise to form the foundations of your whole belief system. Its a shaky building.



I think it equally hilarious that you think evolution is a proven science. You think that idea is useful....for what?

The Creator at least gives his worshippers a wonderful and satisfying hope for the future and a reason for the current state of man.....what does evolution offer for its proponents? Extinction?
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Guess you haven't read much of this thread then......there is plenty of argument.
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Can you answer the question then? If nature designed things so well that scientists want to mimic them, why does it take intelligence to copy the original, whom you say needed no designer?
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jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
No one is arguing that speciation happened 6,000 years ago.

By the way, you do my side better than I do imo.

One viable and reproductive species per year of life. This is just for fun because I know one species can seem like another species to most people. I do not know how many different forms of life exist. I think it is much less than the number of actual species.

You know that a life form might not live long enough to procreate. Put that fact into the equation.
Another factor that must be considered in the equation is the possibility that one part of a function must meet another part of a function for anything to happen in the first place.

Let's forget the species, the number is too big. Let's just consider all the different life forms, that look different.

Each one came into existence by incremental steps. Each one. How many successful incremental steps do you suppose it takes for one simplest life form to be alive, stay alive and reproduce?

Add that to the number of different life forms on the Earth. What is the answer? (my brain can not stretch that far).

I get that you're trying a long-winded approach to arguing for irreducible complexity. I imagine that at some point you're going to pull out the astronomically large number which shows that it's a 1 in 800 Bazillion-Infintillion chance that we exist exactly as we do today... But that's still not evidence for anything that you're wanting it to be evidence for. - It's actually not evidence at all.

The probability that a guy named SavageWind would write the exact number of words on a forum post that you just wrote to me, and read a response to it the following Tuesday from a guy named Jonathan is incredibly unlikely... The likelihood exponentially decreased with each letter that you typed because each one added a new variable to the equation. I mean, do the math. What are the odds that you, exactly as you are, would write to me, exactly as I am, everything that you just wrote, exactly as you wrote it? Don't forget to include all of the variables of your day which set up the timing for your writing to me at precisely the time that you did. Don't forget to include all of the variables for all of the thoughts that you had which you did not transcribe - because they're a factor in this too...

Taking that all into account, what's the probability that your post would appear exactly as it appeared, and that I would read it exactly how I read it and that I would read when I read it?

...It's an absurd number, isn't it? Bordering on an impossibility? Rendering the probability for the existence of our posts basically null?...

Yet, here we are.

What do you make of that?
Is the problem here the obvious impossibility of the existence of our posts?
Or there is a flaw in the argument of probability?

All it takes is one time. You can't just insert the argument for God, and then assert it to be true, just because you don't know how it happened.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The God who made the Heaven and the Earth made the first DNA with everything else to keep it viable. Everytime a new animal or plant appeared, it was started by God Almighty. I can't prove it.

God is the designer/architect. The builders are shy. I do not know them.
How do we test this belief?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
This is utter nonsense. And you [Deeje] know it, given that we've been over this several times (as have others on the thread) where we all pointed out to you that both religious and non-religious people alike, all throughout human history have contemplated the evolution of life on this planet in some form or another. Nobody came up with it to eliminate any creator - in fact, many contemplated evolution in light of a creator, or in hopes of finding a creator. Darwin certainly didn't put together his comprehensive theory to eliminate any potential Creator.

You need to stop starting over and repeating the same exact inaccurate talking points as though there are not 73 prior pages to this thread where they have been repeatedly addressed. Unless you want to come off as disingenuous. Or at least if you're going to repeat it, try coming up with some actual evidence backing up your talking point. Otherwise, all you have is empty rhetoric.
And any religion or denomination that tells it's members to ignore reality like that must be regarded as being bogus.

As so many here have posted, the evidence for evolution goes even beyond the massive amounts of evidence to support it, but also the basic concept is just plain old common sense: all material items change over time, and genes are material items. On top of that, because genetic change tends to be incremental, there's no logic in the supposed macro/micro-evolution gap that's unbridgeable.

The bottom line is that any religious approach that has it's members going through life with blinders on simply is a nonsensical and bogus religion/denomination. If somehow the ToE negated a belief in God(s), that would be one thing, but it simply doesn't as it doesn't include nor exclude that possibility. But if one has been thoroughly brainwashed to believe that somehow it does, even though most theologians do not believe there's any such conflict, then we can see why some people simply cannot be willing to open their eyes to the reality.

But then, I'm preaching to the choir. You're singing solo, right? ;) .
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So, your boat is the Titanic?

Out of all that was discussed, you picked the ship? o_O OK, there was a good reason for using it......

The Titanic is a great metaphor for the situation that people find themselves in today. The passengers were told that the ship was unsinkable and they believed it. But, when they hit the iceberg, reality set in they realised that they had been sold a lie, and survival became the focus. Sadly, the ship's builders had not installed enough lifeboats based on their assumption that they would not be needed. We know the awful story of how it all played out.

I was on the "Titanic" along with everyone else once, but when I saw the ship listing and the water rushing in, I also saw the need to get off it and into a lifeboat, then making sure to keep a good distance from the sinking ship, which will take down anything that is in close proximity. Anyone who stayed with the ship, of course, went down with it, or froze to death in the water.

Would it make sense to rearrange the deck chairs or to consult the menu for breakfast? What about upgrading to a better cabin?
This is what I see the majority of people doing today. The world is sinking and the majority are under the impression that everything will somehow be all right. The world is "unsinkable"....right?

Those who understand what is about to take place according to Bible prophesy, are knocking on cabin doors to warn the heavy sleepers that they need to take action to save themselves. And shouldn't we be taking all the steps we can to get off that ship whilst doing our best to stay out of the freezing water? :eek:

I see this as a choice we all have to make. According to the Bible, not many will be in the lifeboats, yet there is plenty of room. :(
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The Irreducible Complexity is not even a hypothesis.

A hypothesis required to be falsifiable and testable. Irreducible Complexity isn't testable.

Intelligent Design is a joke, because there have been no evidences for this "Designer". All the claims of ID adherents, are just argument based on circular reasoning and wishful thinking.

Circular reasoning is not logic, and wishful thinking is nothing more than in believing in delusional wishes and blind faith. And ID got these in spades.

The Discovery Institute have been using the silly and outdated Watchmaker analogy, and such analogy isn't science, it is just flawed and fallacious logic. There have been no credible evidences for any Designer. Comparing the Designer to the Watchmaker, is nothing more than manipulative desperation by ID advocates, especially by those at the Discovery Institute.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Can a perfectly functioning brain sin?

The answer to that is yes.
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Adam had a perfectly functioning brain but he also had free will. He could choose to sin by disobeying his Sovereign Ruler. We all have the same freedom, but as with all choices, there are consequences, most of which are predictable.

The common Hebrew term translated “sin” is chat·taʼthʹ; in Greek the usual word is ha·mar·tiʹa. In both languages the verb forms (Hebrew, cha·taʼʹ; Greek, ha·mar·taʹno) mean “miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point. Greek writers often used ha·mar·taʹno with regard to a spearman missing his target. Both of these words were used to mean missing or failing to reach not merely physical objects or goals (Job 5:24) but also moral or intellectual goals or marks.

There are two kinds of "sin", according to the Bible.
There is the one that creates imperfection in the functioning of the mind, body and spirit. (We will call this Adamic sin)
In Eden, the penalty for disobedience was death. It was not a quick execution but a slow degeneration into aging, sickness and eventually a complete breakdown of the whole organism. Time was needed to experience a valuable object lesson. This "sin" is an imperfection of the whole human being like an inborn genetic defect that affects all humans from the cradle to the grave. We are born "sinners" which basically means we have a defect that affects our judgment, our actions and our physical function.....a propensity to go the wrong way. In this we have no choice.

The other kind of "sin" is the one we perform deliberately, going against good judgment, good morals and often good sense. In this one we do have choices. So "sin #1 opens up the way for sin #2. Its a battle between the conscience and the flesh, sometimes on a daily basis. We all fight it every day. Our decisions reflect the wisdom of our mindset and the outcomes or consequences are sometimes mistakes that are built to last. We can't go back and undo them.

For the atheist, there is no such thing as sin, but for the believer, we have an explanation for why humans behave the way they do and what will be the ultimate outcome for their choices. No one is forced to do anything but be themselves. That is fair, isn't it? :shrug:
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I get that you're trying a long-winded approach to arguing for irreducible complexity. I imagine that at some point you're going to pull out the astronomically large number which shows that it's a 1 in 800 Bazillionon-Infintillion chance that we exist exactly as we do today... But that's still not evidence for anything that you're wanting it to be evidence for. - It's actually not evidence at all.

The probability that a guy named SavageWind would write the exact number of words on a forum post that you just wrote to me, and read a response to it the following Tuesday from a guy named Jonathan is incredibly unlikely... The likelihood exponentially decreased with each letter that you typed because each one added a new variable to the equation. I mean, do the math. What are the odds that you, exactly as you are, would write to me, exactly as I am, everything that you just wrote, exactly as you wrote it? Don't forget to include all of the variables of your day which set up the timing for your writing to me at precisely the time that you did. Don't forget to include all of the variables for all of the thoughts that you had which you did not transcribe - because they're a factor in this too...

Taking that all into account, what's the probability that your post would appear exactly as it appeared, and that I would read it exactly how I read it and that I would read when I read it?

...It's an absurd number, isn't it? Bordering on an impossibility? Rendering the probability for the existence of our posts basically null?...

Yet, here we are.

What do you make of that?
Is the problem here the obvious impossibility of the existence of our posts?
Or there is a flaw in the argument of probability?

All it takes is one time. You can't just insert the argument for God, and then assert it to be true, just because you don't know how it happened.
I know that I had enough time to write it and you had enough time to read it (thank you).

If ever science gets the notion that the universe is 800 Bazillion years old my argument will not stand.
I think that there has not been enough time for all the many bazillion beneficial changes to have happened via undirected evolution. I believe it was directed as in designed.
 
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