Just Addressing Yet Another Absurd, Dishonest Atheistic Argument

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, it doesn't. It, like many ancient writings, has a 'wisdom literature' that addresses the hopes and fears of the people at the time. Such literature is collected by experience and observation. And it is often wrong (yes, even in the Bible).

Prophesies are uniformly vague and twisted to fit later facts. There was no *specific* prophesies that would pass even the least skeptical test.

If you want a *real* prophesy, I will say that there will be an eclipse of the sun visible across the continental US on August 21,2017. Times for the eclipse have been calculated for various locales down to the minute.

This can be contrasted to a 'prophesy' that says 'a young woman will have a child who will shake the world'. Do you see the difference? One is specific in several different ways. The other is vague, trivial, and says whatever the listener wants to hear.

Biblical 'prophesies' are of the latter sort.

I like this list of criteria, myself:

For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical foreknowledge definitionally can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies#Criteria_for_a_true_prophecy

@BilliardsBall - if any purported prophecy doesn't meet all of these criteria, I'm not going to take it seriously.

And if it was "fulfilled" by people who knew about the "prophecy" and, though deliberate human action, caused the prediction to come to pass, it doesn't count either.

Even though the prediction "Penguin will juggle live clams on the observation deck of the Eiffel Tower on December 2nd, 2024" is an improbable, unambiguous prediction, if the reason it comes to pass is that I hear about it and then spend the time between now and then learning to juggle, travelling to France, and on the appointed day, go up the Eiffel Tower with my bucket of clams, I've only carried out a plan, not fulfilled a prophecy.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's not a slave. The slave would be the one taken into captivity against his will, has his labor stolen from him, loses his freedom and dignity, is beaten and at times to death, and has his family sold away.

I think we're beating this subject to death, but you are skipping verses which make biblical servitude unique in the ancient world, like the verses about allowing a married slave to depart with his spouse and etc. even if the spouse was the "owner's" daughter.

Besides, weren't most of the Hebrews' slaves meant rather to be exterminated in Canaan and not enslaved?

I also know that if we speak of the Exodus, you will say God did horrible things that the Egyptians didn't deserve for owning and murdering their Hebrew slaves.

I wish my skeptic friends would decide whether all slavery is reprehensible or just when it's not a Jew who is in chains.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Quite possibly. Whether a person was a Nazi was based on party membership.

It's also quite possible for someone to have supported the principles of National Socialism while also thinking that Adolf Hitler wasn't the best person to achieve them.


Not really what we're talking about, is it? How many of those people consider themselves "followers of Christ"?

Most of our difference of opinion about who is and isn't a Christian has to do with people who love God, read the Bible, and attend church... but just interpret the Bible's message and God's will differently from you.

Tell you what: you list what you think are the essential traits of a Christian, then I'll give some examples of established Christian churches that violate them. Sound good?

Wait just a minute! You wrote:

How many of those people consider themselves "followers of Christ"?

Which means you won't say I'm guilty of NTS when I say "you have to want to follow Christ to be a true Christian"! Yes? No?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Come again?


Wholly true is pushing it, and the ones that are true are generally unremarkable. If they point to a divine author, then so do fortune cookies.


Not only did I not realize this, but it seems the American Bible Society didn't realize this either:

http://bibleresources.americanbible...ants-in-the-time-of-jesus-history-and-culture

BTW: indentured servants were just one class of slave in the ancient world. Other classes of slave - e.g. foreigners captured in war - had no way to buy their way to freedom.


So you're defending feudalism now?


I don't seek anything from you. So far, you've offered nothing that I'm interested in.

If you say the Bible is pointing to generally unremarkable facts of human behavior, then you agree that it points out correctly that all people are sinners, liars and need transformation from Christ to save them!

Or is that "unremarkable"?

 

[Polymath257]

If you say the Bible is pointing to generally unremarkable facts of human behavior, then you agree that it points out correctly that all people are sinners, liars and need transformation from Christ to save them!

Or is that "unremarkable"?

No, that is just the priests trying to get you to pay for their way through life.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Do you think this is "wholly true"?

Proverbs 12:21:

The righteous do not encounter any harm,
but the wicked are filled with calamity.

Do you agree with the Bible that good people don't suffer and that calamity is a sign of wickedness?

It is a prophecy fulfilled after death! Wake up! Come out of your spiritual stupor, brother!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, it doesn't. It, like many ancient writings, has a 'wisdom literature' that addresses the hopes and fears of the people at the time. Such literature is collected by experience and observation. And it is often wrong (yes, even in the Bible).

Prophesies are uniformly vague and twisted to fit later facts. There was no *specific* prophesies that would pass even the least skeptical test.

If you want a *real* prophesy, I will say that there will be an eclipse of the sun visible across the continental US on August 21,2017. Times for the eclipse have been calculated for various locales down to the minute.

This can be contrasted to a 'prophesy' that says 'a young woman will have a child who will shake the world'. Do you see the difference? One is specific in several different ways. The other is vague, trivial, and says whatever the listener wants to hear.

Biblical 'prophesies' are of the latter sort.

Thank you for issuing general statements, however, you are defaming ultra-specific prophecies. There are over 300 prophecies Christ fulfilled in His first advent. Specifically--hands and feet pierced, Gentiles surrounding Him to gamble for his clothes, struck on His face, accounted for with the wicked in His death (adjacent crosses) and also with a rich man in His tomb, rejected and despised among men, marred in appearance, silent as a lamb in His trials, etc., etc., etc.

What you write above is 100% true in the case of the Qu'ran, the Vedas, David Koresh, Scientology, JW's, Mormons, etc. but not the Holy Bible. Not at all!

 

[Polymath257]

Thank you for issuing general statements, however, you are defaming ultra-specific prophecies. There are over 300 prophecies Christ fulfilled in His first advent. Specifically--hands and feet pierced, Gentiles surrounding Him to gamble for his clothes, struck on His face, accounted for with the wicked in His death (adjacent crosses) and also with a rich man in His tomb, rejected and despised among men, marred in appearance, silent as a lamb in His trials, etc., etc., etc.

What you write above is 100% true in the case of the Qu'ran, the Vedas, David Koresh, Scientology, JW's, Mormons, etc. but not the Holy Bible. Not at all!

All those 'prophesies' were so vague as to be irrelevant. The Bible is precisely like all the rest in this.

 

[Polymath257]

It is a prophecy fulfilled after death! Wake up! Come out of your spiritual stupor, brother!

So not a prophesy at all. Do you consider this one to be in your list of 'verified' prophesies? If so, it shows your standards for verification.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think we're beating this subject to death, but you are skipping verses which make biblical servitude unique in the ancient world, like the verses about allowing a married slave to depart with his spouse and etc. even if the spouse was the "owner's" daughter.

And what about the verses that describe what happens when the slave's spouse or children are also slaves? You know: the ones where a slave who has paid his debt gets to choose between either:

- freedom, but never seeing his loved ones again, or
- slavery for the rest of his life with his family.

Besides, weren't most of the Hebrews' slaves meant rather to be exterminated in Canaan and not enslaved?

"Don't blame God for slavery! God didn't want that; he wanted genocide - much better!"

I also know that if we speak of the Exodus, you will say God did horrible things that the Egyptians didn't deserve for owning and murdering their Hebrew slaves.

I wish my skeptic friends would decide whether all slavery is reprehensible or just when it's not a Jew who is in chains.

A complicating factor with the Exodus story: it says that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go because "God hardened his heart." According to the story, none of the plagues were necessary to free the Israelites; God punished Egypt for what the Pharaoh was forced by God to do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is a prophecy fulfilled after death! Wake up! Come out of your spiritual stupor, brother!

It's rather hypocritical to insult me and call me "brother" in the same sentence.

If you say the Bible is pointing to generally unremarkable facts of human behavior, then you agree that it points out correctly that all people are sinners, liars and need transformation from Christ to save them!

Or is that "unremarkable"?

Read it again. I said that what's true in the Bible is unremarkable; I didn't say that the whole thing was true and unremarkable.

It has quite a bit of crap in it, but it would be quite a feat if it managed to have no truth in it at all. I mean, even the Wizard of Oz refers to Kansas, which is a real place.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is a prophecy fulfilled after death! Wake up! Come out of your spiritual stupor, brother!

Insults aside... your position is that "the righteous do not encounter any harm" actually means "the righteous may encounter LOTS of harm, but this will change after they die"?

Really?

 

[BilliardsBall]

So I guess that you don't like having your questions ignored any more than those whose questions you ignore like it. Can you learn anything from that?

Incidentally, in my case, most questions to you are rhetorical in nature, meaning that your non-answer is an answer - one of equal value to one that is not credible. You can expect me to post about your evasions. Once you choose that path, the next step is to make it explicit for the benefit of those who forgot about the question being ignored. Your strategy relies on nobody noticing what you are doing.

I guess, then, going forward, to save us both time, I'll ask you if you are being rhetorical or not. Sorry for the hassle.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I like this list of criteria, myself:


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies#Criteria_for_a_true_prophecy

@BilliardsBall - if any purported prophecy doesn't meet all of these criteria, I'm not going to take it seriously.

And if it was "fulfilled" by people who knew about the "prophecy" and, though deliberate human action, caused the prediction to come to pass, it doesn't count either.

Even though the prediction "Penguin will juggle live clams on the observation deck of the Eiffel Tower on December 2nd, 2024" is an improbable, unambiguous prediction, if the reason it comes to pass is that I hear about it and then spend the time between now and then learning to juggle, travelling to France, and on the appointed day, go up the Eiffel Tower with my bucket of clams, I've only carried out a plan, not fulfilled a prophecy.

Not addressing any of the Bible prophecies I've shared with you, several times, now, but I expect you to dodge the Bible prophecies.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not addressing any of the Bible prophecies I've shared with you, several times, now, but I expect you to dodge the Bible prophecies.

Any Bible prophecies you've ever shared with me have come up lacking.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, that is just the priests trying to get you to pay for their way through life.

The OT priests were commanded to receive some income to do the hard work of slaying and blooding and sacrificing and administering justice while being denied ALL lands.

The NT "priests" made tents and worked with their hands, preaching, not drawing a salary, and selling possessions to give to the poor.

No. You are super-intelligent and very versed in the sciences, but not the verses!

 

[BilliardsBall]

All those 'prophesies' were so vague as to be irrelevant. The Bible is precisely like all the rest in this.

I'm having trouble deciding if you are being obstinate or if this is a darker, more spiritual blindness.

"A Jewish man will be betrayed by a close associate with a kiss on the cheek, for 30 silver pieces, be silent at his trial, be beaten with rods, crucified, rise from the dead on the third day..."

That can't be mere stubbornness to see such things as vague!

 

[BilliardsBall]

So not a prophesy at all. Do you consider this one to be in your list of 'verified' prophesies? If so, it shows your standards for verification.

It's not in my list of verified prophecies, of course. I'm looking forward to verifying Heaven in attendance.

 

[BilliardsBall]

And what about the verses that describe what happens when the slave's spouse or children are also slaves? You know: the ones where a slave who has paid his debt gets to choose between either:

- freedom, but never seeing his loved ones again, or
- slavery for the rest of his life with his family.


"Don't blame God for slavery! God didn't want that; he wanted genocide - much better!"



A complicating factor with the Exodus story: it says that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go because "God hardened his heart." According to the story, none of the plagues were necessary to free the Israelites; God punished Egypt for what the Pharaoh was forced by God to do.

I'm not going to waste time arguing predestination with you. The Bible teaches Pharaoh made free choices, just as you are freely choosing and not predetermined to argue EVERYTHING I say with me. Let's try this!

* Best Star Wars film: Empire

* Best LOTR film: ROTK

* Best 007: Sean Connery

* Best ice cream flavor: chocolate or a chocolate derivative

Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong four times, because you have no interest in meeting the great God and intellect of the universe, but only in arguing.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It's rather hypocritical to insult me and call me "brother" in the same sentence.

Read it again. I said that what's true in the Bible is unremarkable; I didn't say that the whole thing was true and unremarkable.

It has quite a bit of crap in it, but it would be quite a feat if it managed to have no truth in it at all. I mean, even the Wizard of Oz refers to Kansas, which is a real place.

I'm not insulting you! I love you, but you are clearly in a non-spiritual state today, and don't tell me you believe in spirituality as even a thing!

So don't insult me or my intelligence to say the Bible is equivalent to The Wizard of Oz. That's demeaning to the most influential volume of any era, the Holy Bible.