Just Addressing Yet Another Absurd, Dishonest Atheistic Argument

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Wait... so for all those sketchy date estimates where it's questionable whether you even got the year right, you supposedly got them correct down to the day?

You'll have to show your work on that one

He can't.

For starters, as you allude, whether he starts with the correct year of 538 BC for the decree from Cyrus or uses the 536 BC date, he can't calculate a date, just a year.

Also, the 360 day year is arbitrary. According to Wiki, "a common Hebrew calendar year can have a length of 353, 354 or 355 days, while a leap Hebrew calendar year can have a length of 383, 384 or 385 days."

7 x 360d/y x 360y = 907200 days. Counting back from May 14, 1948 takes us into.July of 537 BC. He'd have to assume the exact date from antiquity, and he cant. In fact, if we use January of 537 BC as a starting point, we don't get out of 1947 in 907,200 days.

Then there's the matter of changing calendars. May 14, 1948 fell in the year 5708 on the Hebrew calendar. The arithmetic from the prophecy ought to yield that number.

And of course, if the numbers weren't ballpark, none of this would have been considered what would then have to have been called failed prophecy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's 430 years (biblical years of 360 days each). 70 years of captivity were served in Babylon, leaving 360 years.

One other thing: why are you mixing your "years"?

You claimed that the Babylonian captivity went from 606 BCE to 536 BCE and say that this is 70 years... which it is, but 70 in actual years, not this "360 day Biblical year" nonsense.

... but if we assume as you insist - though why, I don't know - that 360 days equals a "Biblical year", then 606 BCE (real date) to 536 BCE (real date) is 71 "Biblical years", not 70.

Feed that through the rest of your nonsensical reasoning and we conclude that the founding of Israel should have been about 7 years earlier than you said... i.e. sometime in 1941.

So even if we take all of the steps of your ridiculous argument as correct, you're still wrong.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Where are you getting this "Biblical years" stuff from?

Also, the passage (in the parts you left out) talked about lying "on your left side" for 390 days and "on your right side" for 40 days. These seem distinct; why are you lumping them together?

As for the 70 years, I'll address that below:

A quick googling suggests that the Battle of Carchemish happened in 605 BCE, not 606, and the actual captivity didn't begin until 597 BCE, with the last deportation happening in 581 BCE.

None of these dates are 606 BCE. Where did you come up with this number?


Again, this seems questionable, since a quick googling suggests that the Jews were back and working on the Second Temple by 537 BCE. Where did your date come from?


Even moreso for 360 days later.


You're misrepresenting the passage. It says that the punishment will be increased only if they're defeated by their enemies and still disobey God.


You know that a day isn't 360 days, right? Not even in the Hebrew calendar.



Wait... so for all those sketchy date estimates where it's questionable whether you even got the year right, you supposedly got them correct down to the day?

You'll have to show your work on that one.


That depends what outcome we're trying to measure the odds for. Should it be "these specific verses give the exact date of the decaratiom of independence for the modern state of Israel?"or should it be "some collection of significant-sounding numbers, combined together in some arbitrary way, can give us a date we consider important?"

I'd say that second one is almost certain.


Do they employ similarly ridiculous arbitrary leaps and hand-waving?


Sure it does.

To answer your questions, the biblical calendar is 360, not 365 days. Intercalary leap months are added to it to time out seasons.

There are 360 years of 360 days each times 7 from the decree equals the May date for Israel's restoration. On May 14 was the declaration: Independence Day (Israel) - Wikipedia

 

[BilliardsBall]

One other thing: why are you mixing your "years"?

You claimed that the Babylonian captivity went from 606 BCE to 536 BCE and say that this is 70 years... which it is, but 70 in actual years, not this "360 day Biblical year" nonsense.

... but if we assume as you insist - though why, I don't know - that 360 days equals a "Biblical year", then 606 BCE (real date) to 536 BCE (real date) is 71 "Biblical years", not 70.

Feed that through the rest of your nonsensical reasoning and we conclude that the founding of Israel should have been about 7 years earlier than you said... i.e. sometime in 1941.

So even if we take all of the steps of your ridiculous argument as correct, you're still wrong.

Sorry! My bad, there were 430 biblical years minus 70, times 7. The biblical dates for the Babylonian captivity are in the Hebrew, not Gregorian calendar.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To answer your questions, the biblical calendar is 360, not 365 days. Intercalary leap months are added to it to time out seasons.

A year in the Hebrew calendar is never 360 days:

a common Hebrew calendar year can have a length of 353, 354 or 355 days, while a leap Hebrew calendar year can have a length of 383, 384 or 385 days.

Hebrew calendar - Wikipedia

Do you mean something else by "Biblical year"?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To answer your questions, the biblical calendar is 360, not 365 days.

BTW: your response only addressed a few of my questions. Others (e.g. how you came up with the specific dates you're relying on) remain unanswered.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry! My bad, there were 430 biblical years minus 70, times 7. The biblical dates for the Babylonian captivity are in the Hebrew, not Gregorian calendar.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It seems like you're saying that "606 BCE" and "536 BCE" are dates in the Hebrew calendar, but this seems obviously false, since "BCE" is not a concept that's reflected in the Hebrew calendar.

 

[BilliardsBall]

A year in the Hebrew calendar is never 360 days:


Hebrew calendar - Wikipedia

Do you mean something else by "Biblical year"?

There are 12 Hebrew months based on a lunar cycle. The new moon and etc. drive the calendar. To avoid overly-moving holidays and etc. intercalary months are inserted to move the biblical calendar to the secular space.

The point remains--360 biblical years of 360 days each times 7 equals May 14, 1948 AD. This is an extraordinary proof--the kind of powerful proof skeptics demand of extraordinary Bible claims.

 

[BilliardsBall]

BTW: your response only addressed a few of my questions. Others (e.g. how you came up with the specific dates you're relying on) remain unanswered.

What questions remain unanswered? Happy to help.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There are 12 Hebrew months based on a lunar cycle. The new moon and etc. drive the calendar. To avoid overly-moving holidays and etc. intercalary months are inserted to move the biblical calendar to the secular space.

IOW, so that the average length of a year is about 365 days.

The point remains--360 biblical years of 360 days each times 7 equals May 14, 1948 AD.

Instead of "Biblical years," you really ought to be calling them "arbitrary years." They don't reflect the Hebrew calendar and you've given no Biblical source to justify this assumption.

You also still haven't justified your assumption of 360 years. As we touched on earlier, the method you used to come up with that time span appears to have several errors.

This is an extraordinary proof--the kind of powerful proof skeptics demand of extraordinary Bible claims.

Extraordinary claim, not proof. So far, you haven't proven anything.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What questions remain unanswered? Happy to help.

- where did you get this "Biblical years" stuff from?
- why are you lumping the period "on your left side" and the period "on your right side" together?
- how did you arrive at your dates for the start and end of the Babylonian captivity?
- how did you manage to arrive at dates that are precise to the day for dates that historians give ranges for? How are you able to be more precise than the historical record?

 

[BilliardsBall]

IOW, so that the average length of a year is about 365 days.


Instead of "Biblical years," you really ought to be calling them "arbitrary years." They don't reflect the Hebrew calendar and you've given no Biblical source to justify this assumption.

You also still haven't justified your assumption of 360 years. As we touched on earlier, the method you used to come up with that time span appears to have several errors.


Extraordinary claim, not proof. So far, you haven't proven anything.

You may not have read the Bible carefully. All biblical/religious months are based on moon cycle timings/observations.

The Jewish holidays appear to shift around relative to our, Western - Gregorian, calendar. Thus Tabernacles, for instance, may fall in September or October. This is because the Jewish calendar is Lunar while the western calendar is Solar. (See also Christian Calendar)

Every four years the western calendar has to add a day ( 29th February ) to keep the calendar in step with the Earth's progress around the Sun.

The Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, with twelve lunar months of 29 or thirty days, which is about ten days short of a solar year, so seven years in every nineteen have an extra month. This ensures that the seasonal feasts keep to their correct season.

Rosh Chodesh is the New Moon, which is the start of each month. Biblically, Rosh Chodesh was determined by witnesses observing the first thin crescent of the moon. In days before modern communication the new moon could not be notified to all dispersed communities so Rosh Chodesh is celebrated on two consecutive days outside Israel.

In Genesis Ch1 v14 GOD said,

"Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky ..... to serve to mark the seasons and days of years."
Biblically, the dates can not be predetermined, but are fixed by observation.

The Jewish Calendar and the Gregorian Calendar

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You may not have read the Bible carefully. All biblical/religious months are based on moon cycle timings/observations.

The Jewish holidays appear to shift around relative to our, Western - Gregorian, calendar. Thus Tabernacles, for instance, may fall in September or October. This is because the Jewish calendar is Lunar while the western calendar is Solar. (See also Christian Calendar)

Every four years the western calendar has to add a day ( 29th February ) to keep the calendar in step with the Earth's progress around the Sun.

The Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, with twelve lunar months of 29 or thirty days, which is about ten days short of a solar year, so seven years in every nineteen have an extra month. This ensures that the seasonal feasts keep to their correct season.

Rosh Chodesh is the New Moon, which is the start of each month. Biblically, Rosh Chodesh was determined by witnesses observing the first thin crescent of the moon. In days before modern communication the new moon could not be notified to all dispersed communities so Rosh Chodesh is celebrated on two consecutive days outside Israel.

In Genesis Ch1 v14 GOD said,

"Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky ..... to serve to mark the seasons and days of years."
Biblically, the dates can not be predetermined, but are fixed by observation.

The Jewish Calendar and the Gregorian Calendar

You didn't answer any of Penguin's questions.

You're "amazing" argument convinced nobody of anything that you would have wanted it to. Why do you suppose that is? Do you know?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You may not have read the Bible carefully. All biblical/religious months are based on moon cycle timings/observations.

Actually, it seems it's you who didn't read carefully. I don't think you understand my point. I realize that the Jewish calendar shifts around relative to the solar year.

The Jewish calendar has 353-355 days in a non-leap year and 383-385 days in a leap year. It never has 360 days.

So why are you assuming a 360-day year?

Again: where are you getting this "Biblical year" stuff from?

The Jewish holidays appear to shift around relative to our, Western - Gregorian, calendar. Thus Tabernacles, for instance, may fall in September or October. This is because the Jewish calendar is Lunar while the western calendar is Solar. (See also Christian Calendar)

Every four years the western calendar has to add a day ( 29th February ) to keep the calendar in step with the Earth's progress around the Sun.

The Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, with twelve lunar months of 29 or thirty days, which is about ten days short of a solar year, so seven years in every nineteen have an extra month. This ensures that the seasonal feasts keep to their correct season.

Rosh Chodesh is the New Moon, which is the start of each month. Biblically, Rosh Chodesh was determined by witnesses observing the first thin crescent of the moon. In days before modern communication the new moon could not be notified to all dispersed communities so Rosh Chodesh is celebrated on two consecutive days outside Israel.

In Genesis Ch1 v14 GOD said,

"Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky ..... to serve to mark the seasons and days of years."
Biblically, the dates can not be predetermined, but are fixed by observation.

The Jewish Calendar and the Gregorian Calendar

Okay: so by "Biblical calendar" you really do mean the Jewish calendar (and not more specious numbers-pulled-out-of-context-to-get-the-answer-you-want)? If so, then you're just wrong: if you need to assume that a Jewish year is exactly 360 days long to make your prophecy work, then your prophecy has failed.

... and we can say that even without considering all the other questionable assumptions in your reasoning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And BTW: if you want to set aside the Jewish calendar and assume a purely lunar calendar (why, I don't know, but your arguments hint at it), you should know that 12 lunar months works out to 354 days, so that isn't 360 days either.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I understand. Reflecting the above:

A) Israel was declared to have statehood by the UN and its own declaration on May 14, 1948 - undeniably, this happened.
B) It's biblical - there are verses saying the Jewish nation would a second time (the first was the Exodus) be birthed in a day; there are prophecies indicating this date in 1948
C) It's unknown - it was research post-1948 that brought the dating method used to the fore

So we've established by now that this fails as a prophecy (or to be charitable: the failure could be on your part by taking it as a prophecy when it wasn't). Do you have any prophecies that can actually be reasonably shown to be fulfilled? Any at all?

More importantly, the saving resurrection of Christ fulfills these three aspects you're citing.

Assumes facts not in evidence. And if you could actually demonstrate "the saving resurrection of Christ", you would be able to demonstrate the truth of Christianity without even having to consider prophecy.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You didn't answer any of Penguin's questions.

You're "amazing" argument convinced nobody of anything that you would have wanted it to. Why do you suppose that is? Do you know?

I did indeed respond to the line of questioning posed.

I cannot say with certainty re: the second question, but all signs point to, "skeptics don't respond to reasonable evidence".

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually, it seems it's you who didn't read carefully. I don't think you understand my point. I realize that the Jewish calendar shifts around relative to the solar year.

The Jewish calendar has 353-355 days in a non-leap year and 383-385 days in a leap year. It never has 360 days.

So why are you assuming a 360-day year?

Again: where are you getting this "Biblical year" stuff from?


Okay: so by "Biblical calendar" you really do mean the Jewish calendar (and not more specious numbers-pulled-out-of-context-to-get-the-answer-you-want)? If so, then you're just wrong: if you need to assume that a Jewish year is exactly 360 days long to make your prophecy work, then your prophecy has failed.

... and we can say that even without considering all the other questionable assumptions in your reasoning.

Are you getting the 353-355 days from a modern Hebrew source or from your extrapolation of lunar cycles or . . . ? I know you need to invalidate the biblical year to invalidate the Israel prophecy, but please consider the following...

Most ancient cultures went on a 360-day calendar.

The biblical-prophetic year consisted of 360 days. Abraham, the father of Israel, continued to use the 360-day year, which was known in his home in Ur of the Chaldees. The Genesis account of the flood in the days of Noah illustrated this 360-day year by recording the 150-day interval till the waters abated from the earth. The 150 days began on the seventeenth day of the second month, and ended on the seventeenth day of the seventh month (Genesis 7:11,24 and 8:3-4). In Other words, the five months consisted of thirty days each; therefore, twelve months would equal 360 days (12 x 30 = 360 days).

Sir Isaac Newton stated, "All nations, before the just length of the solar year was known, reckoned months by the course of the moon, and years by the return of winter and summer, spring and autumn; and in making calendars for their festivals, they reckoned thirty days to a lunar month, and twelve lunar months to a years, taking the nearest round numbers, whence came the division of the ecliptic into 360 degrees." ( Anderson, Robert. The Coming Prince. London: Hodder & Stroughton, 1894. )

The truth about the biblical 360 day year as mentioned by Newton was quoted by Sir Robert Anderson in his book, The Coming Prince, page 68. This was not a new discovery by Sir Isaac Newton in the late 1600's or even by Sir Robert Anderson in 1895. It was clearly discussed in detail by Christian, Julias Africanus in his Chronology in his explanation of the fulfillment of Daniel's Seventy Weeks, written about A.D. 240.

The book of Esther (1: 4) indicates the same 360-day length of year by recording the six-month-long feast of Xerxes as continuing exactly 180 days.

The Prophet Daniel recorded that the time of the absolute power of the Antichrist over the nations will last three-and -one-half years (Daniel 7:25). John, in the book of Revelation, described this same three-and-one-half year period (Revelation 13:5-7) as consisting of forty-two months of thirty days each, totaling 1260 days (Revelation 11:2-3; 12:6). The biblical writers used the ancient 360-day biblical year in both the historical and predictive parts of Scripture.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you getting the 353-355 days from a modern Hebrew source or from your extrapolation of lunar cycles or . . . ?

I'm getting it from a quick googling. The modern Jewish sources I was able to find indicated that the number and length of each month in the Jewish calendar has been the same for thousands of years. The one change that's occurred was that when to insert a leap month is now standardized based on a calculation, but historically was done based on subjective judgement of whether the calendar had become out of alignment with the seasons.

What's your source?

I know you need to invalidate the biblical year to invalidate the Israel prophecy, but please consider the following...

Most ancient cultures went on a 360-day calendar.

Without examining whether this claim is true in general: was it true for ancient Israel?

The biblical-prophetic year consisted of 360 days.

Evidence?

Abraham, the father of Israel, continued to use the 360-day year, which was known in his home in Ur of the Chaldees.

Evidence?

The Genesis account of the flood in the days of Noah illustrated this 360-day year by recording the 150-day interval till the waters abated from the earth. The 150 days began on the seventeenth day of the second month, and ended on the seventeenth day of the seventh month (Genesis 7:11,24 and 8:3-4). In Other words, the five months consisted of thirty days each; therefore, twelve months would equal 360 days (12 x 30 = 360 days).

IMO, it's a bit strange to take a passage that describes "windows in Heaven" literally. Regardless, if we choose to do this, it only establishes the average length of a month; it doesn't establish that every month has the same length. It also says nothing about the length of months outside this 150 days.

Sir Isaac Newton stated, "All nations, before the just length of the solar year was known, reckoned months by the course of the moon, and years by the return of winter and summer, spring and autumn; and in making calendars for their festivals, they reckoned thirty days to a lunar month, and twelve lunar months to a years, taking the nearest round numbers, whence came the division of the ecliptic into 360 degrees." ( Anderson, Robert. The Coming Prince. London: Hodder & Stroughton, 1894. )

A synodic lunar month is 29.5 days. Most cultures that use a lunar calendar have a mix of 29-day and 30-day months,

The truth about the biblical 360 day year as mentioned by Newton was quoted by Sir Robert Anderson in his book, The Coming Prince, page 68. This was not a new discovery by Sir Isaac Newton in the late 1600's or even by Sir Robert Anderson in 1895. It was clearly discussed in detail by Christian, Julias Africanus in his Chronology in his explanation of the fulfillment of Daniel's Seventy Weeks, written about A.D. 240.

The book of Esther (1: 4) indicates the same 360-day length of year by recording the six-month-long feast of Xerxes as continuing exactly 180 days.

The issue in question isn't whether the Persians had a 360-day calendar.

The Prophet Daniel recorded that the time of the absolute power of the Antichrist over the nations will last three-and -one-half years (Daniel 7:25). John, in the book of Revelation, described this same three-and-one-half year period (Revelation 13:5-7) as consisting of forty-two months of thirty days each, totaling 1260 days (Revelation 11:2-3; 12:6). The biblical writers used the ancient 360-day biblical year in both the historical and predictive parts of Scripture.

And you think that they never added leap months to bring the average length of a year back to 365 days?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I did indeed respond to the line of questioning posed.

You didn't answer several of the questions asked of you. You were specifically asked to justify a few of the apparently arbitrary choices your argument makes, and you never did. Polymath and I named several, and they were actually enumerated in a list from Penguin.

Don't worry about it. The matter is behind us. You have no answers and refuse to try to answer, so the matter has stalled at the point where you refuse to support your claims, and will remain there indefinitely.