Just Believe

[TransmutingSoul]

Why would you think think there's no evidence? Why would you think faith is blind?
It's just not proven beyond doubt.

True Faith is built upon the evidence of the Spirit and becomes proven beyond boubt in our chosen frame of reference. Once that frame is broken by the Spirit of Truth, we get the opportunity to revisit and refine what we once considered was an unshakeable truth.

Regards Tony

 

[ecco]

I'm not a believer. This is just my observation.

Guess a better one is if you think you're win a million dollars by clapping your heels, that's blind faith.

If you invest and put in the effort to gain that amount, that's invested faith.

The invested faith can still backfire if you take it for granted but it's more rational than tapping your heels.



It was a bad example. If using my above example is getting a job and seeing your paycheck.




Above

Very confusing.

 

[Wildswanderer]

True Faith is built upon the evidence of the Spirit and becomes proven beyond boubt in our chosen frame of reference. Once that frame is broken by the Spirit of Truth, we get the opportunity to revisit and refine what we once considered was an unshakeable truth.

Regards Tony

I have no idea what that means.
The evidence for God is overwhelming.
The evidence for Christ being God is real.
I don't need everything proven.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

However, you have faith that the words attributed to Jesus were recorded and transcribed accurately. You have this faith despite the fact that they could not have been.
As an example, where is your evidence that the 3000+ words of the Sermon on the Mount were recorded and transcribed accurately?

I find you are far from alone in your ^ above ^ thinking.
Is the absence of evidence also evidence of absence ________
Then, there is the exercise of faith in that the Sermon on the Mount was Not recorded/transcribed accurately.
Unlike other writings, we find corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses to the old Hebrew Scriptures in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, thus showing the internal harmony found in Jesus' teaching found in the Sermon on the Mount.
So, yes I have faith (confidence) in what Jesus taught.
Jesus was very-well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures that is why the could explain or expound Scripture for us.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have no idea what that means.
The evidence for God is overwhelming.
The evidence for Christ being God is real.
I don't need everything proven.

All your evidence you offer points to only Jesus.

Yet with the same evidence and a different frame of reference, one can see it also points to Baha'u'llah as the End of Ages Messiah, then the evidence gathered to say it is only jesus, does not support that point of view any more.

The Spirit of Truth, in this example, has redefined what the evidence means to us.

Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............The evidence for Christ being God is real..............

I find the evidence is for Christ being the Son of God because that is really what the Bible teaches.
No man has seen God at any time according to John at John 1:18
People saw Jesus
Moses wrote that No man can see God and live as per Exodus 33:20
People saw Jesus and lived
No one has seen the Father 'except' the one who is from God...... John 6:46
People saw Jesus
Gospel writer John believed that No one has seen God at any time as per John at 1 John 4:12
People saw Jesus

 

[PureX]

Gods aren't an exempt category just because many cultures include them as part of their belief and meaning. Objectively gods fall into the category of imaginary beings. Not opinion, just the fact of how the category is organized.

But only a fool thinks that's the end of the story, or all there is to theism. Mythology, artifice, idealism, these are all important means by which we humans understand and relate to the mystery of existence. And we ignore or belittle them at our peril.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Very confusing.

Faith=trust that you'll win a hundred by working. Evidence=paycheck

Blind faith=trust you'll win a hundred by belief
Evidence=none

It's ideal religious put trust in outcomes they work towards not ones to magically come true

-
Faith just means trust in something. I put faith I'll get to work but it's blind to think I'd get there without gas. So I need to put the effort.

It's faith cause you don't know the outcome, you're putting faith in a good one

(You don't have to agree to understand it)

 

[PureX]

If you thought the analogy between gods and fairies was silly, then you didn't understand it. I am comparing two entities that some people believe exist (probably just kids in one case, but that doesn't matter for the present purpose) and some don't, neither having evidence for or against such belief apart from never detecting either, which while not evidence of nonexistence, is the only finding possible consistent with it.

The problem is that you can't so easily dismiss the ideal of an ultimate source, sustenance, and purpose for all that is, so you have to equate it with something trivial that you can more easily dismiss. I understand perfectly. Which is why I called it silly.

My comment was, "More to the point is that we have no evidence that any god exists." To a critical thinker, that is significant.

To a critical thinker it is meaningless. Because a critical thinker will know that a lack of evidence is meaningless unless there is a logical, reasonable expectation that evidence would be extant, and recognizable, and in this instance, neither is the case. So that lack of evidence is evidence on nothing at all.

Again, you misunderstand. I was reporting what many theists believe and post. It was the basis of my conclusion that if they believe in a god that is not detectible even in principle by examining physical reality, that the question of the existence of such a god is irrelevant. It was an exercise in logical thought that demonstrates the inconsistency in the beliefs of those people.

Why are you demanding physical evidence of mythical, representation 'entities'? Don't you understand that these are only conceptual 'avatars'. My avatar is Popeye. Are you suggesting that since Popeye is a mythical representation that I don't exist? Or that since Santa Clause is a mythical representation of the spirit of Christmas that Christmas isn't "real"? Or that the spirit of Christmas doesn't exist and isn't real?

Or is it that you cannot dismiss the ideal that the many various god-images represents, so you have to attack and dismiss the representations?

A logical fiction? What's that? A logical fallacy? An error in reasoning? No. An error in reasoning is to believe without sufficient evidence.

You can repeat that til the cows come home, and it will be just as illogical and untrue the last time you say it as it was the first time. Unless you have a logical, reasonable expectation of there being recognizable, verifiable evidence, the lack of it means nothing. And since as far as I know you have NEVER actually articulated what evidence you expect to exist, if God exists, I have to assume you have no reasonable expectation of it.

Or not. There may be no god, and that's why I don't see one.

True, but then again, 'source, sustenance, and purpose' are often not visible even when the result, is. So the fact that you can't see it certainly does not indicate that it doesn't exist.

More to the point, it's hard to see how knowing the answer would matter. What if you had ironclad proof that a god had set the universe in motion with the Big Bang and a host of particles and forces rather than that it budded from some mindless substance (multiverse). How would that matter?

Identifying that there is a source does not answer much. We woud still want to know the nature of that source, and the duration of it's sustenance, and the purpose of it all (particularly of ourselves). It "wouldn't mean much" because you haven't resolved much of anything

No, faith and reason are antithetical.

Oh, that's nonsense. Nearly everything we "reason to be true" is based on our trusting in the accuracy of our perception and the process of our reasoning. We humans live by faith. We have no choice.

Actually, there is a test. I like to tell the story of the kid who thought he was red-green colorblind, but when he remembered other pranks played on him like Santa Claus and the time he went out snipe hunting with his friends made him question whether he was being pranked on color as well. Were other people seeing jus the grey he saw and calling it red sometimes and green sometimes to pull his leg? This is basically asking the same question: is he not seeing something that is actually there (red and green), or are others "seeing" something that isn't. It's easy to tell. Have a bag of ten socks with the numbers 1-10 on them, have somebody who claims to see color tell you which is red and which is green, record the color of each sock, and ask a dozen people that have been kept from collaborating what they see. Do they all give the same answers? If so, you're colorblind. If not, prank exposed.

Except we're ALL colorblind to varying degrees. So your thinking that consensus somehow solves the puzzle of reality is false. And since the vast majority of humans are theists, even consensus rejects you presumptions.

 

[Wildswanderer]

All your evidence you offer points to only Jesus.

Yet with the same evidence and a different frame of reference, one can see it also points to Baha'u'llah as the End of Ages Messiah, then the evidence gathered to say it is only jesus, does not support that point of view any more.

The Spirit of Truth, in this example, has redefined what the evidence means to us.

Regards Tony

Who or what is your spirit of truth?

 

[Wildswanderer]

I find the evidence is for Christ being the Son of God because that is really what the Bible teaches.
No man has seen God at any time according to John at John 1:18
People saw Jesus
Moses wrote that No man can see God and live as per Exodus 33:20
People saw Jesus and lived
No one has seen the Father 'except' the one who is from God...... John 6:46
People saw Jesus
Gospel writer John believed that No one has seen God at any time as per John at 1 John 4:12
People saw Jesus

The Bible teaches that Jesus was God incarnate. No one has seen the Father but they have seen the Son.
Jesus accepted being worshipped as God. That would be blasphemy for a mere man.

 

[PureX]

However, there is extensive evidence that gods are the creations of man's imaginings.

• Do you believe Thor is anything but the creation of man's imaginings?
• Do you believe Shiva is anything but the creation of man's imaginings?
• Do you believe Allah is anything but the creation of man's imaginings?
• Do you believe The Christian God is anything but the creation of man's imaginings?

If these gods are not the creations of man's imaginings, then they all must be real gods. Wouldn't you agree?

You are confusing the conceptual representations of God invented by men, with the reality of God's existence. Before you enter the theism/atheism debate, you need to clear up this confusion in your own mind. Otherwise all you're gong to do is argue endlessly and pointlessly about how the mythology IS mythology. And the people arguing back will be, and remain, just as confused as you are.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I just can't believe it.
How does a person believe in something for which they have no evidence?
How can one just believe in a god, when they have absolutely no evidence?
I don't get it.
To me, that's like one standing on the edge of a mountain, without any glider, singing, "I believe I can fly. I believe I can touch the sky. I dream about it every night and day. Spread my wings and fly away."

Then jumps.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. SPLAT

Is that not idiotic?
That's not faith either. It's stupidity, imo.
The Bible does not even support such an absurd idea.
If Jesus just wanted people to have faith without evidence, he would have simply walked around; looked people in the face; smiled, and said, "Hey. I'm the Messiah. Believe it. "

However, Jesus performed great signs, and used the scriptures to teach with authority, giving people evidence - reason to believe, and exercise faith. Is that not so?
So can someone help me out here. How does a person believe in a god, without evidence? I know there are quite a number of those who call themselves Christians, who think this way. Blind faith, they call it.

That is the claim of the Bible. That is not the evidence. Perhaps he did all of that, perhaps he did not. There is no difference between a Bible believer and the man on the cliff.

 

[blü 2]

I just can't believe it.
How does a person believe in something for which they have no evidence?

Not simply no evidence, but no coherent concept of what is said to be believed in, no definition appropriate to an entity with objective existence.

However, Jesus performed great signs, and used the scriptures to teach with authority, giving people evidence - reason to believe, and exercise faith. Is that not so?

If you believe Jesus performed magic ─ exercised supernatural powers ─ then you accept that magic is possible and that all the other claims of all the other magicians in history are equally valid. Asklepios in ancient Greece raising the dead, or statues of Ganesha drinking milk just a couple of decades back, the roll has many, many names on it.

So why single out Jesus?

 

[idea]

That has as much evidence as Mohammed having flown to heaven on a winged horse. Nothing more than nice stories written in a book. With as much evidence as wood kids growing a nose when they lie, like in Pinocchio. Beliefs that now belong to the infancy of the human race.

Time to grow up and recognise what all those claims are about. Human myths, or just simple fiction. Believed only by people who do not have what it takes to realise the reality that we are destined to eternal oblivion, exactly at the time that machine between our ears stops working.

Ciao

- viole

I was with you till that oblivion bit. Do you find evidence for the conservation laws of thermodynamics? I believe in the end we will find a perfect union, will be mixed together, a drop discovering it has always been the ocean.

 

[idea]

How do you define faith?

Faith in what is not seen... As a child we see through a glass darkly, but as an adult we learn about dinosaurs, that Eden was not real, the sun does not stand still, there was no flood... there is more than one God, more than one mythology story...

Yes, how does everyone define faith, what evidence does everyone ignore.

At what point does faith become misplaced faith?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I just can't believe it.
How does a person believe in something for which they have no evidence?

Almost exclusively because they were indoctrinated into it, generally before they had developed sufficient judgement to question those doing the indoctrination.

How can one just believe in a god, when they have absolutely no evidence? I don't get it.

The same way we can believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy. Because those we are programmed to believe, when we are children, said so.

To me, that's like one standing on the edge of a mountain, without any glider, singing, "I believe I can fly. I believe I can touch the sky. I dream about it every night and day. Spread my wings and fly away."

Then jumps.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. SPLAT

Is that not idiotic?
That's not faith either. It's stupidity, imo.

The really, really interesting thing is that -- in fact -- most people DO NOT BELIEVE to that extent.

Believing in the claims of Christianity, Islam, Judaism or any other religion seem to involve accepting risks -- but those risks are never imminent. They're never here and now. I don't have to jump off a cliff, I just have to suppose that there's a cliff involved when I'm dead and gone. That 's a lot less threatening than your fellow in the picture (I'd never do that, by the way, I'd be terrified down to my shorts).

The Bible does not even support such an absurd idea.
If Jesus just wanted people to have faith without evidence, he would have simply walked around; looked people in the face; smiled, and said, "Hey. I'm the Messiah. Believe it. "

However, Jesus performed great signs, and used the scriptures to teach with authority, giving people evidence - reason to believe, and exercise faith. Is that not so?

Well, and here's where we get to what you have simply decided to believe "without evidence." You accept -- on the word of the Bible alone, and in spite of the failure of any and all attempts to replicate what is claimed -- that those "great signs" actually happened. Nobody can do them now, can they? Oh, wait, there are claims made by the Baha'is and Mormons that they have. Oops. Why don't you accept those? Just out of curiosity.

So can someone help me out here. How does a person believe in a god, without evidence? I know there are quite a number of those who call themselves Christians, who think this way. Blind faith, they call it.

Sorry, I can't help you. I don't believe in a god without evidence -- it is you who does that. So? How do you do it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who or what is your spirit of truth?

This is only One Source, God.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

Have not seen what? The wind?
Blessed are those who believe and has not seen me. (John 20:26-29)

Why would they be blessed? Let's note they are being told there is a Jesus that can't be seen, and they are told they will be blessed by believing it. What about the objective thinker who isn't convinced by just taking this person's word for it?

The same argument could be made about any imaginary character, it just depends how manipulated the audience is that they will buy it.

One does not have to see the wind, but they might hear it, or feel it. Hence believe.

No, we believe in things we cannot verify. When your senses depend a phenomenon then it is confirmed as real and not something subject to judgment. Now you know the wind exists. That's why this is a bad analogy for some idea like jesus. People can believe in Jesus, and do so despite there being no real substantive evidence to justify that judgment. No Christian can claim to know Jesus exists because there is no practical and functional way to determine this Bible character exists.

One does not have to see Jesus, but what they hear, and learn, and observe or experience, gives them rational reason for believing.

They experience what their minds adopts, mimicking, and create. Nothing suggests anyone actually experiences a Jesus outside of what they imagine.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This is only One Source, God.

Regards Tony

And where does God say Jesus is not the messiah now?