Justice and Hell

[DandyAndy]

Can there be true justice without an eternal Hell? I say no - Hell is necessary for justice.

What say you?

 

[Father Heathen]

Can there be true justice without an eternal Hell? I say no - Hell is necessary for justice.

What say you?

Do you consider the punishment proportionate to the crime?

 

[DandyAndy]

Let us agree on the punishment for the sake of discussion first.

Is the punishment eternal damnation in Hell, which is synonymous with eternal separation from GOD?

What is the crime?

 

[Pegg]

Can there be true justice without an eternal Hell? I say no - Hell is necessary for justice.

What say you?

according to God, death is necessary for justice...and that is all.

 

[freethinker44]

Can there be true justice without an eternal Hell? I say no - Hell is necessary for justice.

What say you?

Our only crime is being born into this world and your idea of justice for that crime is being tormented for eternity?

 

[DandyAndy]

Our only crime is being born into this world and your idea of justice for that crime is being tormented for eternity?

That is just your opinion, man. Our crimes (more than 1) are personal choices we make to rebel against GOD/break His Laws. We all do it, most of us do it multiple times every day, me included.

 

[DandyAndy]

according to God, death is necessary for justice...and that is all.

But all men, both wicked and righteous, must die. If death is all the wicked and the righteous face, they receive the same 'punishment.' How can there be justice when the law breaker and law obeyer receive the same 'punishment?'

 

[freethinker44]

That is just your opinion, man. Our crimes (more than 1) are personal choices we make to rebel against GOD/break His Laws. We all do it, most of us do it multiple times every day, me included.

So then you don't believe we are born with sin and will be punished if we don't ask for forgiveness for those sins?

 

[Pegg]

But all men, both wicked and righteous, must die. If death is all the wicked and the righteous face, they receive the same 'punishment.'

Even the righteous ones are still imperfect and sin. that means none of us are fully righteous. Even those who try to be righteous suffer the same human condition as the wicked ones.

How can there be justice when the law breaker and law obeyer receive the same 'punishment?'

There can't be. Thats why God provided a redeemer for mankind. He will rectify the situation we are in by means of Christ Jesus. He will do so by removing the necessity of death as a punishment for the righteous ones.

 

[Father Heathen]

Let us agree on the punishment for the sake of discussion first.

Is the punishment eternal damnation in Hell, which is synonymous with eternal separation from GOD?

What is the crime?

The question cannot be examined critically due to it's placement in a DIR.

 

[DandyAndy]

So then you don't believe we are born with sin and will be punished if we don't ask for forgiveness for those sins?

Why do you think we are born with sin, which I take to mean that we are born guilty of sin?

Please provide a Biblical answer, not what someone told you - I don't put much stock in what someone told you unless it corresponds with what the Bible says.

When I commit a sin, I become guilty. The result of guilt is death, much like the result of touching fire is being burned. Merely asking for forgiveness is not enough. Someone has to pay for what you deserve, someone has to take the punishment for you IF you are not to receive it yourself.

I believe that I do need to ask for forgiveness of those sins - but the only way it makes a difference is because of my acceptance of the free gift of salvation given through Christ. If he doesn't pay for my debt, I can ask for forgiveness a million times but that means nothing without the reconciliation of Christ.

 

[DandyAndy]

The question cannot be examined critically due to it's placement in a DIR.

Crap, I don't know what that means? Please instruct me on how to go about this the right way so we can continue our discussion.

 

[DandyAndy]

Even the righteous ones are still imperfect and sin.

I agree.

that means none of us are fully righteous. Even those who try to be righteous suffer the same human condition as the wicked ones.

I agree as well. We all sin, no matter how hard we try not to. This is why Jesus came to Earth...

There can't be. Thats why God provided a redeemer for mankind. He will rectify the situation we are in by means of Christ Jesus. He will do so by removing the necessity of death as a punishment for the righteous ones.

Indeed. So what is the punishment of those that deny the free gift of salvation (i.e. the wicked) that is Jesus Christ?

 

[Pegg]

Why do you think we are born with sin, which I take to mean that we are born guilty of sin?

Please provide a Biblical answer, not what someone told you - I don't put much stock in what someone told you unless it corresponds with what the Bible says.

Psalm 51:5 Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains,
And in sin my mother conceived me

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die

romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned

 

[Pegg]

Indeed. So what is the punishment of those that deny the free gift of salvation (i.e. the wicked) that is Jesus Christ?

it is simply the punishment we already have... death.

We can be rewarded with eternal life, or we can be punished with eternal death.

 

[freethinker44]

Why do you think we are born with sin, which I take to mean that we are born guilty of sin?

Please provide a Biblical answer, not what someone told you - I don't put much stock in what someone told you unless it corresponds with what the Bible says.

Have YOU read the bible? It's kind of what it's about. Adam sinned and passed that sin onto all other humans and the rest is more or less about how to redeem ourselves.

 

[DandyAndy]

Have YOU read the bible? It's kind of what it's about. Adam sinned and passed that sin onto all other humans and the rest is more or less about how to redeem ourselves.

Yes. I was just asking a question to see what you thought - just because we've read the same book doesn't mean we think/see the same way.

I just wanted to point out that it is not Adam's sin that any of us are guilty of, it is our own personal sin that we are guilty of.

 

[DandyAndy]

it is simply the punishment we already have... death.

We can be rewarded with eternal life, or we can be punished with eternal death.

I'm trying to get at the punishment after death, in other words, the punishment only visited upon the unbeliever and not the born-again believer. I agree both experience the physical death.

I think we see the same thing from a different angle. What do you mean when you say 'eternal death?' Please elaborate.

 

[DandyAndy]

Psalm 51:5

romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned

I'll have to read up on the other two, but see my emphasis on your quote. I just want it to be clear that we are all guilty of our own personal, individual sins.

 

[Otherright]

Can there be true justice without an eternal Hell? I say no - Hell is necessary for justice.

What say you?

I disagree.

Hell is a Christian tradition, and does not exist in Judaic tradition. Its a problem of dualism, injected by the Greeks, into the New Testament.

Before Christianity, in the Old Testament, there was no hell, there was Heaven and Sheol (the grave). The concept of hell was added later.