Justice and Hell

[Pegg]

I'm trying to get at the punishment after death, in other words, the punishment only visited upon the unbeliever and not the born-again believer. I agree both experience the physical death.

I think we see the same thing from a different angle. What do you mean when you say 'eternal death?' Please elaborate.

i dont think there is any punishment after death. The bible says that when a person dies, they are completely unconscious and unaware...so how can someone who is unconscious be punished?
Eccl 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die;but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun


By eternal death i mean exactly that. Death forever. To be in a state of complete unconsciousness forever...never to wake up. That is the punishment God gives.

 

[Pegg]

I'll have to read up on the other two, but see my emphasis on your quote. I just want it to be clear that we are all guilty of our own personal, individual sins.

yes it is our own personal sins that makes us guilty.

Adams sin was his own personal sin, he chose to disobey Gods order. None of us are being punished for Adams sin of disobedience...that is his own sin. But we are punished for our own sins. We all disobey God in many ways because we have been born segregated from God and we dont really know how to live by his laws perfectly.

But God recognizes that it wasnt our choice to be born this way...its just an unfortunate side effect of Adams sin. Thats why God extends mercy to us. Adam did not receive of Gods mercy...he was put to death and will never have an opportunity to live again...he is eternally punished with death.

But we do no have to receive eternal punishment because God makes allowance for us. He has given us a choice to receive of his mercy if we want it.

 

[Otherright]

yes it is our own personal sins that makes us guilty.

Adams sin was his own personal sin, he chose to disobey Gods order. None of us are being punished for Adams sin of disobedience...that is his own sin. But we are punished for our own sins. We all disobey God in many ways because we have been born segregated from God and we dont really know how to live by his laws perfectly.

But God recognizes that it wasnt our choice to be born this way...its just an unfortunate side effect of Adams sin. Thats why God extends mercy to us. Adam did not receive of Gods mercy...he was put to death and will never have an opportunity to live again...he is eternally punished with death.

But we do no have to receive eternal punishment because God makes allowance for us. He has given us a choice to receive of his mercy if we want it.

A point of theology, we are punished by being the seed of Adam, according to Christian doctrine. This is why sin is eternal.

 

[Pegg]

A point of theology, we are punished by being the seed of Adam, according to Christian doctrine. This is why sin is eternal.

i've never heard that idea before. We are not punished for being born...we are shown mercy because we have been born into sin.

What i've read in the scriptures is that sin will be done away with...it will be removed from mankind and so will death.

Daniel 9:24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite

Luke 1:77 to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself.

Revelation 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.


I am fully expecting to see sin and death brought to an end. People will learn to live in harmony with Gods perfection and in that way, sin will be no more.And if sin is no more, then death will be a thing of the past.

 

[DandyAndy]

A point of theology, we are punished by being the seed of Adam, according to Christian doctrine. This is why sin is eternal.

I don't want to assume so could you provide Bible verse(s) so I can understand exactly what you are saying?

I don't see us being punished for being the seed of Adam - I see us physically dying because sin entered into the world through Adam - but that has nothing to do with Heaven/Hell and justice.

I also don't see sin being eternal. I see the punishment for our personal sin being eternal (Hell) and I see the reward of righteousness (Heaven) offered us through Christ as payment for our personal sin being eternal.

 

[DandyAndy]

i dont think there is any punishment after death. The bible says that when a person dies, they are completely unconscious and unaware...so how can someone who is unconscious be punished?
Eccl 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die;but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun


By eternal death i mean exactly that. Death forever. To be in a state of complete unconsciousness forever...never to wake up. That is the punishment God gives.

Is that annihilationism? Just curious, I heard the concept for the first time a few weeks ago.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one for now. I see a literal Hell that Jesus spoke of and I THINK you see something else - but that's a different discussion for a different thread. I think?

 

[Pegg]

Is that annihilationism? Just curious, I heard the concept for the first time a few weeks ago.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one for now. I see a literal Hell that Jesus spoke of and I THINK you see something else - but that's a different discussion for a different thread. I think?

I dont know about 'annialationism' but to me it is simply the opposite of life.

God gives life, and God takes life away. We either exist in life. Or we dont exist at all.

And you would do well to look up some information on Sheol. That is the hebrew word translated as Hell.

 

[DandyAndy]

And you would do well to look up some information on Sheol. That is the hebrew word translated as Hell.

I have. You are right about the translation. Listen, I read what Jesus says about Hell and I see Paul condemning someone to Hell for changing the Gospel or sending a different message in Galatians 1 and I see it in Revelation as a very real place.

I also see a difference between the Sheol of the OT and the Hell spoken of in the NT. The Sheol of the OT was simply an abode of the dead and seems to come from the idea that tombs were often burrowed in the ground - a place of just 'being,' 'asleep' if you will. I see the Hell presented in the NT being very different.

But again, agree to disagree.

 

[Pegg]

I have. You are right about the translation. Listen, I read what Jesus says about Hell and I see Paul condemning someone to Hell for changing the Gospel or sending a different message in Galatians 1 and I see it in Revelation as a very real place.

I also see a difference between the Sheol of the OT and the Hell spoken of in the NT. The Sheol of the OT was simply an abode of the dead and seems to come from the idea that tombs were often burrowed in the ground - a place of just 'being,' 'asleep' if you will. I see the Hell presented in the NT being very different.

But again, agree to disagree.

ok, so you can see there is a difference between the original word Sheol, and the english word Hell.

Do you think its reasonable that Jesus or the Apostles changed the meaning of the word Sheol?

 

[DandyAndy]

ok, so you can see there is a difference between the original word Sheol, and the english word Hell.

Do you think its reasonable that Jesus or the Apostles changed the meaning of the word Sheol?

I think more reasonable that they are two distinct places and because all the words (Sheol/Hades/Hell) are so closely related, it's more likely that they were speaking of two different places. But I would have to go read more - I think they understood Sheol to be a place of just non-existence and something else (Hell) to be a place of literal torment, which I think is what Jesus alluded to about the fires of Gehenna (sp?) and the worm never perishing and whatnot. If Sheol is the same place as Hell, their attitude towards it seemed to radically change from the OT to the NT - this leads me to believe that it is two different things/places. Plus I think in Revelation, Death and Sheol/Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire - I would have double check that later. Again, this is all from memory and my memory is not so good.

 

[Pegg]

I think more reasonable that they are two distinct places and because all the words (Sheol/Hades/Hell) are so closely related, it's more likely that they were speaking of two different places. But I would have to go read more - I think they understood Sheol to be a place of just non-existence and something else (Hell) to be a place of literal torment, which I think is what Jesus alluded to about the fires of Gehenna (sp?) and the worm never perishing and whatnot. If Sheol is the same place as Hell, their attitude towards it seemed to radically change from the OT to the NT - this leads me to believe that it is two different things/places. Plus I think in Revelation, Death and Sheol/Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire - I would have double check that later. Again, this is all from memory and my memory is not so good.

But perhaps you are not considering that Jesus never used the word 'hell'
Hell comes from the english language....not the hebrew language.

Jesus used the words 'sheol' and 'hades'... and the original meaning of these words in his language was simply the grave or a place for the dead. The bible writers even say Jesus himself was in Sheol for 3 days.

In the King James english bible it says that Jesus was in 'hell' for 3 days.



So, if you want to really understand what type of place that the scriptures speak of, you need to look at the Hebrew and greek language...not english. And if you are interested, i can offer you some study material specifically on this subject.

 

[Katzpur]

Can there be true justice without an eternal Hell? I say no - Hell is necessary for justice.

What say you?

I believe that Hell has its place, but I'm not sure why it would have to be eternal. Most of the things Christians believe will cause a person to be sent to Hell don't seem to me to be so bad as to warrant suffering that never ends.

 

[Katzpur]

Crap, I don't know what that means? Please instruct me on how to go about this the right way so we can continue our discussion.

Andy, any sub-forum that has the letters "DIR" in its title is a non-debate forum. "DIR" means "Discuss Individual Religions." Since you started your thread in the "Christianity DIR," you are essentially limiting the variety of opinions that can be expressed. If another Christian disagrees with your perspective, he really can't debate it. The DIR forums are primarily places where people outside of the religion can go to ask believers their questions. A question of this sort would probably have been better stated in the Same Faith Debates Forum with a notation that you want to debate only with other Christians. A moderator could move the thread for you if you were to request it.

 

[DandyAndy]

But perhaps you are not considering that Jesus never used the word 'hell'
Hell comes from the english language....not the hebrew language.

Jesus used the words 'sheol' and 'hades'... and the original meaning of these words in his language was simply the grave or a place for the dead. The bible writers even say Jesus himself was in Sheol for 3 days.

In the King James english bible it says that Jesus was in 'hell' for 3 days.



So, if you want to really understand what type of place that the scriptures speak of, you need to look at the Hebrew and greek language...not english. And if you are interested, i can offer you some study material specifically on this subject.

Let us agree that the unbeliever is eternally separated from GOD. Whether that unbeliever suffers in Hell or just exists apart from GOD is secondary to the fact that the unbeliever is separated from GOD for eternity. I don't think we are going to agree beyond that - we both seem set in our beliefs, no use butting heads when neither one of is going to budge.

 

[DandyAndy]

I believe that Hell has its place, but I'm not sure why it would have to be eternal. Most of the things Christians believe will cause a person to be sent to Hell don't seem to me to be so bad as to warrant suffering that never ends.

Jesus says in Matthew 25:46 that the punishment, just like the reward, is eternal. Whatever the punishment is, it's eternal. The first part of 2 Thessalonians, up through verse 10 or so, also touches on it.

James 2:10 makes it clear that it is not the type of sin we commit or even the amount of sin that matters - simply breaking it once makes you guilty. Yes it is our sin that makes us guilty, but what truly condemns us is the rejection of Christ and thus GOD. Jesus speaks to that at the end of John 12.

Hell is the result of an individuals personal choice to reject GOD and His grace, just as Heaven is the result of the acceptance of GOD and His grace.

 

[Pegg]

Let us agree that the unbeliever is eternally separated from GOD. Whether that unbeliever suffers in Hell or just exists apart from GOD is secondary to the fact that the unbeliever is separated from GOD for eternity. I don't think we are going to agree beyond that - we both seem set in our beliefs, no use butting heads when neither one of is going to budge.

yep, i guess so.

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus says in Matthew 25:46 that the punishment, just like the reward, is eternal. Whatever the punishment is, it's eternal. The first part of 2 Thessalonians, up through verse 10 or so, also touches on it.

James 2:10 makes it clear that it is not the type of sin we commit or even the amount of sin that matters - simply breaking it once makes you guilty. Yes it is our sin that makes us guilty, but what truly condemns us is the rejection of Christ and thus GOD. Jesus speaks to that at the end of John 12.

Hell is the result of an individuals personal choice to reject GOD and His grace, just as Heaven is the result of the acceptance of GOD and His grace.

Thanks for your answer, Andy. I'm afraid I disagree, but since this thread is in a DIR forum, I won't start an argument over it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Can there be true justice without an eternal Hell? I say no - Hell is necessary for justice.
What say you?

If eternal hell is necessary for justice, then how do you explain that hell ends?
Hell ends in 'second death' according to Rev 20vs13,14.

Once all in the Bible hell are 'delivered up' [resurrected] then emptied-out vacant hell dies out of existence in second death.

Those of Psalm 92v7 are punished by being annihilated or destroyed forever.

 

[DandyAndy]

If eternal hell is necessary for justice, then how do you explain that hell ends?
Hell ends in 'second death' according to Rev 20vs13,14.

Once all in the Bible hell are 'delivered up' [resurrected] then emptied-out vacant hell dies out of existence in second death.

Those of Psalm 92v7 are punished by being annihilated or destroyed forever.

What is the lake of fire?

 

[Pegg]

What is the lake of fire?

its certainly not a literal place