Justice

[doppelganger]

Justice usually comes down to rationalizing one's aesthetic feelings to facilitate an act and/or feel better about actions one has already taken. Subconscious processes have already done their damage before conscious thought arrives on the scene . . . and its job is mostly PR, or more precisely, managing cognitive dissonance.

 

[BruceDLimber]

What is justice? Is it a virtue?

Most assuredly!


And you might find this quote from the Baha'i scriptures of interest (God speaking):


"O SON OF SPIRIT!

"The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not the knowledge of thy neighbour. Ponder this in thy heart how it behoveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."
--The Hidden Words, Part One, #2


Best!


Bruce

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why exactly is revenge necessarily a bad thing? I think revenge and justice do overlap and are often the same (although not all justice is revenge and not all revenge is justified). Undue losses and damages should be repaid.

Hmm. I see revenge as more about making the guilty pay, not necessarily about recovering losses and damages. If you kill someone out of revenge, you may have extracted a cost from the person who wronged you, but you're no better off yourself.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Revenge is only one aspect of justice. Many times justice can be vindication of an action.

Justice is a double edged sword.

 

[Father Heathen]

Do you believe in free will?

Yes? That doesn't mean allowing people to victimize the innocent with impunity, so I'm not quite following whatever point you may be trying to make.

 

[Father Heathen]

Hmm. I see revenge as more about making the guilty pay, not necessarily about recovering losses and damages. If you kill someone out of revenge, you may have extracted a cost from the person who wronged you, but you're no better off yourself.

The satisfaction is compensation for the damage, and a righted wrong can bring closure and help to heal emotionally.

 

[Valjean]

Most people and religious texts speak approvingly of justice, yet they also speak well of mercy and compassion, which, in some ways, would seem to curtail justice.

If we think of justice as the fair "wages" of our actions, wouldn't mercy be less than fair compensation?
Do both fair and less than fair make sense?

 

[Penumbra]

I see where you are getting at. Though free will does not mean there will not be punishment for mistakes.

I look at it more as consequences than punishments. Certain behaviors are not tolerated by societies, and they contain the problem in one way or another, and if possible, attempt to reverse any damage that is done.

But wouldn't that be kinda the same as revenge?

Revenge doesn't have to be the exact thing back. Isn't it just punishment for punishment?

Revenge reduces total physical/emotional resources (you hurt me so I'll hurt you back), whereas justice attempts to either undo resource unfairness (you stole from me, so I expect you to pay me back) or to prevent further resource destruction (you hurt people, so you're being kept away from other people so you can't hurt any more).

 

[Penumbra]

Yes?

Interesting. I've personally never seen a definition of free will that is both free and reasonable. The concept of revenge rests rather dependently on free will being a truly meaningful concept. I find free will to be both logically nonsensical and it has trouble being reconciled by physical causality as well.

That doesn't mean allowing people to victimize the innocent with impunity, so I'm not quite following whatever point you may be trying to make.

People definitely shouldn't be allowed to victimize anyone with impunity. But there's a difference between revenge and honorable justice. Identifying problems, containing them, preventing them, and correcting the situation or learning from it typically make more sense than hateful desires to get back at people.

 

[Father Heathen]

People definitely shouldn't be allowed to victimize anyone with impunity. But there's a difference between revenge and honorable justice. Identifying problems, containing them, preventing them, and correcting the situation or learning from it typically make more sense than hateful desires to get back at people.

If someone threw a brick through your window, should they not be required to pay for its replacement?

 

[Meow Mix]

If someone threw a brick through your window, should they not be required to pay for its replacement?

I've appreciated everyone's feedback so far. Of all the comments people have made, this one speaks to me the most. I think this comes closest to what "justice" could be such that it doesn't simply become revenge.

Justice is maybe expecting compensation to help right some wrong -- it's not that the person loses money that's justice, it's that they're correcting the wrong thing that was done. Maybe?

 

[Pegg]

Revenge is only one aspect of justice. Many times justice can be vindication of an action.

Justice is a double edged sword.

yes it certainly is a double edged sword


but then, so can the choices we make be a double edged sword because there are always consequences. Justice is what brings those consequences to the fore.

 

[Penumbra]

If someone threw a brick through your window, should they not be required to pay for its replacement?

I think they absolutely should be required to pay for its replacement.

 

[Father Heathen]

I've appreciated everyone's feedback so far. Of all the comments people have made, this one speaks to me the most. I think this comes closest to what "justice" could be such that it doesn't simply become revenge.

Justice is maybe expecting compensation to help right some wrong -- it's not that the person loses money that's justice, it's that they're correcting the wrong thing that was done. Maybe?

I see revenge as a sort of compensation in the form of satisfaction instead of money. What makes one form acceptable and the other not? A debt is undoubtedly owed for losses and damages by the guilty party to their victim(s). Justice should also serve to instill regret and humility into transgressors. I supposed I have a very "LHP" perspective of revenge and justice.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I think they absolutely should be required to pay for its replacement.

Isn't that revenge? Getting back at them?

 

[Penumbra]

Isn't that revenge? Getting back at them?

No, it's shifting resources to fix an event that society has agreed not to tolerate.

It would be revenge if the primary motivation is to inflict damage on the window-breaker rather than to recoup losses from the broken window.

 

[Thief]

Just for fun....let's say the angels carry swords.
Often see them portrayed as such....don't you?

When the hour comes and you surrender your last breath...
the angels come to see what came of the dust.

Just for fun...let's say they like you....they want you to follow and be like them.
They hand you a sword.

As you proceed, you see that swords sever the living from the dead.
It seems that would be the one thing angels do.

Then it's your turn.
And the only instruction they give is...
"Let there be peace."

The first time around it's easy.
No problem what to allow....what to strike down.

And then again..."let there be peace."
The second time around.....not so easy.
A more careful and discerning application is needed.

When it's all over....no more judgment call to make....

You will stand beside what you allowed....
and mourn what you did not.

 

[Wombat]

Most assuredly!


And you might find this quote from the Baha'i scriptures of interest (God speaking):


"O SON OF SPIRIT!

"The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not the knowledge of thy neighbour. Ponder this in thy heart how it behoveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."
--The Hidden Words, Part One, #2


Best!


Bruce

This sets the scene/context for much of what I wish to say regarding Justice- “The Best Beloved of All Things”.
Most of the responses thus far have dealt with Justice as some form of ‘revenge’/punishment or material ‘restitution’.

“If someone threw a brick through your window, should they not be required to pay for its replacement?” serves as a prime example.

My response to the legitimate questions would be a series of essential questions-

Who is accused of throwing the brick? Child/minor? Adult? Able/intellectually disabled/psych disabled?

Who saw/witnessed the incident? Who investigated the incident (and by what rules/criteria)?

Was there Fair Due Process/Fair Hearing? Did the accused and the victim have the opportunity to speak?

Was it determined that this was a crime, accident, misunderstanding, premeditated attack, impulse response, mitigated by disability or other circumstances?

Is this an event in which the best interests of the victim, the perpetrator and the community are served by punitive response...or by Restorative Justice principles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice

I ask these questions (and in particular those that pertain to Fair Due Process/Fair Hearing) in the context of the quote from Baha’u’llah because I hold Justice to be a Sacred principle....and because the Baha’i community is devoid of and adverse to anything resembling Fair Due Process.

Justice does not come in black and white in a simple neat box...nor can any kind of justice be obtained in the absence of Fair Hearing.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Mere assertion without evidence.

You will forgive me, I trust, if I ignore your post completely.

 

[waitasec]

justice is used to justify for whatever reason...