Justification…Is it works or faith alone?

[Simplelogic]

I had not read this last post when I replied previously to my last post. However this cannot be a commentary on the early Genesis 15:6 events because in those events the promise was already transacted in it's entirety. IOW God had already guaranteed what he told Abraham he would do as a condition of the faith God said Abraham had already demonstrated. The best you can say for what you add in at this point is that this was to provide some clarity on an early teaching but it does not say that, so what does this verse mean to this discussion?

1. To begin with these are temporal rewards and not the eternal righteousness spoken of back in Genesis 15.
2. God makes all kinds of bargains with man. Some are conditional and temporal, some conditional and permanent, some automatic and non-conditional, etc... Righteousness is a legal standing pertaining to he eternal qualifications before God. Land, wives, sheep or what have you are usually conditional and temporal.
3. What you need to show is that God in Gen 26 is talking of the same things he is talking about it Gen 15.
4. There was only one promise based on faith made in Genesis 15 and one direct result. The first was descendants, the second righteousness.
5. Notice that the rewards you list from Abrahams obedience are not descendants but of the land granted to them. There is no mention of descendants being a reward for obedience and certainly no mention of the righteousness credited to Abraham. Both of these things already existed and were permanent gifts resulting from faith. The rest (or much of it) of what you list is rewards for obedience and were not the gifts given because of faith.

So IOW you have two entirely unique events here. Almost nothing being in common between them except the people involved some times. One events was the gift of righteousness before God granted by faith, another a promise of descendants to an old man granted by faith, and a whole list of rewards for obedience which depended on faith but were not direct products of it. Any time you see a surface inconstancy like you did here always check thoroughly. God usually got it right and we have missed something.

1. Hold on a second. If you are going to make the argument that these were ONLY temporal rewards then you can no use this passage to prove Abraham was "saved" by faith. You can't have it both ways.

2. This couldn't be more false. Righteousness pertains ONLY to those who follow YHVH's commandments. I will provide numerous verses if I must.

3. Not really. YHVH is telling us why He considered Abraham righteous and in turn, why He blessed him. Case closed in my book.

4. What?? There is no mention of Abraham's faith in Gen 15. I have already proven this.

5. Huh?

 

[1robin]

1. Hold on a second. If you are going to make the argument that these were ONLY temporal rewards then you can no use this passage to prove Abraham was "saved" by faith. You can't have it both ways.

I had ten minutes left so lets see if I can fit this in. I see your quoting me now. I appreciate it. I said the temporal rewards in your later Genesis verses were not eternal. I have always said the righteousness verse in Gen 15 was eternal. Of course land grants to specific people is not eternal. They can't be. The only debatable issue is whether the righteousness issue was eternal. I submit it was. So I have one thing one way and another a different way and no conflict or necessity to have one thing two ways.

2. This couldn't be more false. Righteousness pertains ONLY to those who follow YHVH's commandments. I will provide numerous verses if I must.

That is begging the question. You saying that it can't be because you say it can't be. That is not an argument.

3. Not really. YHVH is telling us why He considered Abraham righteous and in turn, why He blessed him. Case closed in my book.

Then you are easily persuaded. We have not even finished the opening to a debate and your taking your toys and going home. I could tell that you were getting a little frustrated but this is a little much. Not one thing you posted in Gen 20 referenced a single thing under discussion in Gen 5. You can consider the case however you wish but my original statement has yet to even be challenged.

4. What?? There is no mention of Abraham's faith in Gen 15. I have already proven this.

No you have only claimed it. E very single verse I posted and even the Greek and Hebrew all (every last one of them) stated emphatically that Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness.

5. Huh?

I have no idea how to make point 5 any clearer and my ten minutes are up anyway. The debate has not even begun. Are you out already?

 

[Simplelogic]

This is getting a little old. Let me say it again. The Hebrew does not say anything about Abraham's faith making him righteous!

6And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he (Abraham) counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6

The first key to understanding the identity of the person this pronoun refers to comes from the fact that the sentence this phrase is found in begins by changing the subject of the sentence, from God to Abraham. Read the entire passage again and notice how it changes at "And he believed in the Lord..." Obviously this passage is not suggesting that the Lord believed in Himself! Therefore, at this point the subject changes and begins to refer to Abraham... and he believed in the Lord. Would it not be prudent to assume that the subject of the first clause of the sentence, Abraham, follows through as the subject of the second clause as well? This is proper Hebrew, as well as English, syntax.

The experts agree. In Professor Victor P Hamilton's New International Commentary on the Old Testament (Eerdmans 1990), in Vol. 1 page 425 we read:

The second part of this verse records Yahweh's response to Abram's exercise of faith: 'he credited it to him as righteousness.' But even here there is a degree of ambiguity. Who credited whom? Of course, one may say that the NT settles the issue, for Paul expressly identifies the subject as God and the indirect object as Abraham (Rom. 4:3). But if we follow normal Hebrew syntax, in which the subject of the first clause is presumed to continue into the next clause if the subject is unexpressed, then the verse's meaning is changed... Does he, therefore, continue as the logical subject of the second clause? The Hebrew of the verse certainly permits this interpretation...

 

[Simplelogic]

It is fine if you want to suggest that Paul uses this text to make his argument. But remember that in Paul's quote, the personal pronoun (he) is replaced by (it). The fact remains that the Hebrew scriptures say nothing about Abraham's faith in Gen 15.

 

[Simplelogic]

2. Here is my validation and the definition of righteousness:

And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and
laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? Deut 4:8

Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing
all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly Luke 1:6

He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous;
he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD Eze 18:9

The decrees of the LORD are firm, and all of them are righteous Psalm 19:9

Your decrees are righteous forever. Give me understanding, and I will live. ... Your
righteous decrees are eternal; give me understanding, and I will live…Psalm 119:144

I will praise you with an upright heart, as I learn your righteous decrees Psalm 119:7

The decrees You issue are righteous and altogether trustworthy Psalm 119:138

I know, O LORD, that Your judgments are righteous, And that in faithfulness You ... I
know, LORD, that your decrees are just, and that you have rightfully humbled Psalm 119:17

 

[Thana]

This is getting a little old. Let me say it again. The Hebrew does not say anything about Abraham's faith making him righteous!

6And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he (Abraham) counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6

You have yet to address Habakkuk

 

[Simplelogic]

2. (Continued) This is how man is considered righteous:

For we will be counted as righteous when we obey all
the commands the LORD our God has given us Deut 6:25

But there they are, overwhelmed with dread, for God is present in the company of
the righteous. ... Terror will grip them, for God is with those who obey him. Psalm 14:5

Rejoice in the LORD and be glad, you righteous; sing, all you who are upright in
heart! ... So rejoice in the LORD and be glad, all you who obey him! Psalm 32:11

.. If they obey and serve him, they live out their days in prosperity and their years
in pleasantness. ... "If righteous people listen and serve [him], they will live Job 36:11

And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked,
between those who serve God and those who do not Mal 3:18

... The righteous keep moving forward, and those with
clean hands become stronger and stronger. … Job 17:9

17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;18To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them. Psalm 103:17-18

... All the paths of the LORD are steadfast love and faithfulness,
for those who keep his covenant and his testimonies. … Psalm 25:10

Then I said: "LORD, the God of heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps his
covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments Neh 1:5

... for endurance on the part of God's people, who carefully keep His commandments and ...
Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God … Rev 14:12

... that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love
to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. Deut 7:9

... And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments,
and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. … 1 John 3:22

 

[Simplelogic]

You have yet to address Habakkuk

I promise I will. Sorry its taking so long.

 

[Simplelogic]

You have yet to address Habakkuk

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith". Romans 1:17

This was a favorite passage of the Christian reformer Martin Luther. He believed, as Paul clearly lays out later in Romans and Galatians, this faith that the "just" are supposed to live by, is as opposed to living by the Law. Paul eventually turns it into an either-or... mutually exclusive incompatibility of faith and Law. Notice again that Paul feels compelled to prove his doctrine by quoting Scripture. This observation alone should make it go without saying that the Scripture he quotes had better paint the same picture, or his premise is groundless. Here again Paul misquotes Scripture albeit slightly.

"Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him, but the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4

In this passage's context, and more accurately translated, it is obvious that what God is saying here is that the just person (someone who is righteous) shall live (as opposed to dying) "by" (literally "because of") "his" (personal, as opposed to general) faithfulness: (literally, "steadfastness", ) to righteous living. Let me shorten this up for better understanding. It is this: The righteous person will live if he is steadfast in his righteousness! Nowhere in this picture is the idea: If an unrighteous person wants to become righteous, he must operate in faith.

 

[Simplelogic]

Then you are easily persuaded. We have not even finished the opening to a debate and your taking your toys and going home. I could tell that you were getting a little frustrated but this is a little much. Not one thing you posted in Gen 20 referenced a single thing under discussion in Gen 5. You can consider the case however you wish but my original statement has yet to even be challenged.

I never said anything about the debate itself. I am simply saying that I am convinced that the Hebrew translation is accurate despite what Paul says. YHVH makes it very clear that Abraham was blessed because of his obedience. His "right standing" with God was based off of what he did. Not some predetermined election.

Your case has definitely been challenged. You can choose to ignore it but to say it hasn't been challenged is dismissive.

 

[Simplelogic]

Just a minute. About that question, doesn't righteous mean doing good deeds? If one is called righteous than it may be meaning that he is someone who does righteous deeds. Isn't that true? If yes, I think the question doesn't really address the point you were raising.

I completely agree with you. Still, for arguments sake I decided to pose the question.

 

[Renji]

I'm not really a follower of any Judeo-Christian beliefs, but let's see this scenario: Let's say that I am a christian. I accepted Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. But on the other hand, I do things like committing murder, stealing, etc. Do you think, that just because I have faith in Christ, but still doing those 'sins' on the other hand, I am actually justified, without any attempts to change and make amendments to my actions? What kind of faith is that then (James 2:14-26)?

 

[Estro Felino]

What can I say? You and I believe in the same things.
I am a Pelagian, and I believe that humans attain salvation only by works. This implies that even Atheists can go to Heaven, if they act like Christians.
How can faith in Jesus' sacrifice save wicked people?
If your heart is full of hatred, you can never go to Heaven.
We can never be saved by an external God by faith: this is the most irrational thing I've ever heard.
and yes...Paul was totally wrong

 

[Simplelogic]

5. Notice that the rewards you list from Abrahams obedience are not descendants but of the land granted to them. There is no mention of descendants being a reward for obedience and certainly no mention of the righteousness credited to Abraham. Both of these things already existed and were permanent gifts resulting from faith. The rest (or much of it) of what you list is rewards for obedience and were not the gifts given because of faith.

What??? There is no mention of descendants being rewarded for obedience???

Here it is again:

"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws." Genesis 26:3-5

Yes, it is quite obvious that the WHOLE blessing was given BECAUSE Abraham obeyed YHVH's commandments! There is no way around this one my friend. Your whole argument of temporal vs eternal blessing is completely illogical.

 

[Simplelogic]

I'm not really a follower of any Judeo-Christian beliefs, but let's see this scenario: Let's say that I am a christian. I accepted Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. But on the other hand, I do things like committing murder, stealing, etc. Do you think, that just because I have faith in Christ, but still doing those 'sins' on the other hand, I am actually justified, without any attempts to change and make amendments to my actions? What kind of faith is that then (James 2:14-26)?

Obviously not. The key component to the whole Bible and Yeshua's words is turning from evil to good. Though I believe that "faith alone" people would say the opposite.

 

[Simplelogic]

What can I say? You and I believe in the same things.
I am a Pelagian, and I believe that humans attain salvation only by works. This implies that even Atheists can go to Heaven, if they act like Christians.
How can faith in Jesus' sacrifice save wicked people?
If your heart is full of hatred, you can never go to Heaven.
We can never be saved by an external God by faith: this is the most irrational thing I've ever heard.
and yes...Paul was totally wrong

I agree completely. It is those who follow Yeshua (i.e.. turning from evil to good by repentance) that will be rewarded. Whether they know who Yeshua is or not!!

 

[Simplelogic]

I'm not really a follower of any Judeo-Christian beliefs, but let's see this scenario: Let's say that I am a christian. I accepted Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. But on the other hand, I do things like committing murder, stealing, etc. Do you think, that just because I have faith in Christ, but still doing those 'sins' on the other hand, I am actually justified, without any attempts to change and make amendments to my actions? What kind of faith is that then (James 2:14-26)?

You make a very clear and simple point. It is fascinating that many sects of Christianity can't see this clear concept. I think if people started to actually read Yeshua's teachings and parables (without laminating Paul's logic into it) it would become glaringly obvious!

 

[Simplelogic]

I know I got the Hebrew that time because everything was right justified and hard to fix. That second "he" is not Abraham but God. The one way you know an interpretation is not correct is when it makes the verse meaningless. Also no biblical version I have ever seen and the teams of Hebrew scholars they employed have ever suggested the second he was Abraham. That would have produced one of the biggest scandals and mysteries in the OT if it had. I have to believe that was a mistake on your part. There is no way you believe Abraham credited Abraham with righteousness. Regardless I am out of time today. With the exception of this "he" issue you have made some good (but not in my opinion persuasive) efforts so far, but I have not even opened with my core claims yet. They take too long and I am pressed for time currently. Have a good weekend.

Notice above the second he is directly translated as Yĕhovah not Abraham.

Actually, I have already explained how the verse makes complete sense. Nor is the verse meaningless. Abraham believed YHVH's promise and considered YHVH righteous (meaning that he believed that YHVH will bring His word to pass)

Yes this faulty translation has been a huge blunder and is completely contrary to proper Hebrew grammar. The proof, once again, is that YHVH reiterates this same oath and never speaks of Abraham's faith at all…thats kinda weird isn't it? Especially considering the supposed significance of this verse in relation to faith alone justification.

YHVH only mentions Abraham's OBEDIENCE as being the reason for his justification and blessing. Not to mention the fact that the concept of "faith alone" doesn't exist anywhere else in the OT! Some think Habakkuk mentions this topic but this is another slight of hand which is based on changing one of the key Hebrew words in the text. I have already addressed this verse above also.

But what is mentioned?? Justification via obedience…over and over and over again. Check out these verses:

Let the LORD judge the peoples. Vindicate me, LORD, according to my
righteousness, according to my integrity, O Most High. Psalm 7:8

The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according
to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me. Psalm 18:20

Many Christians simply don't know what to do with these verses. Is David bragging about his own abilities??? No! I have already given numerous verses which prove that righteousness is obeying YHVH's commands. So this means that we become righteous when we do what He says. We have no grounds to boast BECAUSE THEY ARE HIS COMMANDMENTS….not OURS. Diligently following God's commandments is the clearest expression of our LOVE for God. Sure, fools will continue to create their own laws and pretend that they are righteous. This is what YHVH hates…fake obedience…not sincere obedience to His commands.

 

[Renji]

We can never be saved by an external God by faith: this is the most irrational thing I've ever heard.
and yes...Paul was totally wrong

I don't think that it's Paul who's actually wrong. But those people who just quote-dig the bible, without looking at the verse in context.

 

[roger1440]

Works are the outward manifestation of inward faith.