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JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?
- Thread starter Yoshua
- Start date
God says that you must humble yourself before you can be in union with God's son. Have you?
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
By the way, stay away from Jewish tradition. Those ideas concerning multiple archangels come not from God but from their adultery with Babylon's religions.
John 12:48
I agree. What you will be taught is what will get you to your destination.
I stay aware from ALL tradition. Thank you.
Hebrews 10:25
Custom =tradition (not habit). I think you should trust me on this one.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Humbled to the level of dust and then built back up by God.
Do you mean like dead? Gross!
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
There can be custom (tradition) that is of God and there can be custom (tradition) which comes from outside of God.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
But Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
To hand down an ordinance to another generation the precept must be accepted as truth and usually recorded.
The customs which prevent some people from gathering to the body of Christ are not precepts handed down but are beliefs that govern a person singularly. Colossians 2:8 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 are about methods that are adopted. Hebrews 10:25 is about a person's attitude. Hebrews 10:25 is written for the individual. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is written for the congregation.
I am just trying to be reasonable and I might be wrong. I talk to people who seem to think they can't be wrong about their own Bible interpretation. Jehovah's Witness even say so. Some have said that they can't believe they are wrong about hermeneutics because they believe in God and God would not allow a misleading.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Mountain,
Can you prove in details that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one and the same person?
Thanks
Ron Hackel
Member
Michael in Hebrew means "One who is like God" Arch means "chief" Angel is the Greek word angelos and it means messenger.
Jesus was the chief messenger who is like God. If you go to Rev 12:7 we have Michael and his messengers fighting the war against Satan. The word war was translated from a Greek word meaning "an aggressive refuting of ones ideas or principles". God's messengers are the Prophets. The Prophets and Jesus are fighting Satan's lies The Prophets by their testimony in Scripture and Jesus who was the word that became flesh.
HEBREWS 1 : 1 "In the past god spoke to our forefathers through the Prophets at many times and in various ways, but in the last days he has spoken to us by his Son.
EXODUS 3 : 2-5 "There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire..............................When the lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, Moses! Moses!..........Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy ground."
REVELATION 19 : 11-14 "a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and true...........His eyes are like blazing fire...................The armies of heaven were following him."
JOSHUA 5 : 14&15 "Neither, he replied, 'but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.' Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, 'What MESSAGE does my Lord have for his servant?' The commander of the Lord's army replied, "Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy."
DANIEL 10 : 13 "Then Michael, one of the chief princes"
Plural in Hebrew without a number is taken as two. Two princes in God's kingdom. God is the King. Jesus and the Spirit are the princes.
ZECHARIAH 12 : 8 "the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord."
HOSEA 12 : 3 "as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him."
REVELATION 22 ; 8&9 "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, 'do not do it! I am a fellow servant"
I wanted to show only the archangel was worshiped. Gideon worshiped the angel (messenger) of the Lord. Calling Jesus michael no more makes him a created being than calling him the Son of Man. I hope this helps.
Jesus was the chief messenger who is like God. If you go to Rev 12:7 we have Michael and his messengers fighting the war against Satan. The word war was translated from a Greek word meaning "an aggressive refuting of ones ideas or principles". God's messengers are the Prophets. The Prophets and Jesus are fighting Satan's lies The Prophets by their testimony in Scripture and Jesus who was the word that became flesh.
HEBREWS 1 : 1 "In the past god spoke to our forefathers through the Prophets at many times and in various ways, but in the last days he has spoken to us by his Son.
EXODUS 3 : 2-5 "There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire..............................When the lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, Moses! Moses!..........Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy ground."
REVELATION 19 : 11-14 "a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and true...........His eyes are like blazing fire...................The armies of heaven were following him."
JOSHUA 5 : 14&15 "Neither, he replied, 'but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.' Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, 'What MESSAGE does my Lord have for his servant?' The commander of the Lord's army replied, "Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy."
DANIEL 10 : 13 "Then Michael, one of the chief princes"
Plural in Hebrew without a number is taken as two. Two princes in God's kingdom. God is the King. Jesus and the Spirit are the princes.
ZECHARIAH 12 : 8 "the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord."
HOSEA 12 : 3 "as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him."
REVELATION 22 ; 8&9 "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, 'do not do it! I am a fellow servant"
I wanted to show only the archangel was worshiped. Gideon worshiped the angel (messenger) of the Lord. Calling Jesus michael no more makes him a created being than calling him the Son of Man. I hope this helps.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
I already told you that what I presented in that post is all the proof there is. Now if you understand anything about how the design God used in creating this earth parallels those heavenly things then use it to your advantage, for that is really all there is.
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psychoslice
Veteran Member
I think we can apply the consciousness of the Christ to many people from the bible, Jesus the man showed his higher Consciousness, and preached from that Consciousness, as also many others have. There is many even today who speak from their higher Consciousness, call it the Christ, the Buddha, the Krishna, whatever name you give it, its not that, its far beyond the mere names or labels, unfortunately, many have taken just one person who spoke from their higher Consciousness and made a god of him or her.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
You haven't shown anything there that proves whether Michael was a created being or not. You have simply insisted that falling face down constitutes worship which you suppose is forbidden to be rendered anyone but God himself. And the huge failure of that idea is that people are shown to bow face down to even flesh and blood kings and woman to their husbands. You are taking a cultural tradition and interposing it with the worship God was speaking of as reserved to himself. The worship God was speaking of is differentiated from such mere acts of honor in that this worship of God is commanded to be an exclusive devotion in the sense that his word over-rules the command of all others.
When a king speaks in support of God's word there is no conflict when one pays homage to that king for all is directed through that king to the Father of heaven and earth.
The account in Revelation chapter 22 is understandable in that John, never having seen God in person, likely thought that angel was God. And that angel set him straight on the matter.
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Mountain_Climber
Active Member
I am sorry. I was thinking that you should have gotten an alert concerning that post and so were familiar with it. But looking back on it I didn't direct to anyone.
It was post 382.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Ron,
Exodus 3:2-4
2. And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.
3. So Moses said, "I must turn aside now, and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up."
4. When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush, and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."
It is a kind of a tricky context when we connote that the angel of the Lord appeared to Moses become an angel to be worshiped. I believe it is logical that God used His angels as the messenger, the one who appeared before men to convey message from the Lord God. If we separate the angel and God in their appearance before men, we may truly acknowledge if angels are really to be worshiped. Let see the following scriptures:
Joshua 5:14-15
14. And he said, "No, rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the Lord." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"
15. And the captain of the Lord's host said to Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
This is another case where preincarnate Christ—a theopany. Joshua will not bow down if He was just an angel. Let us see an examples below:
Rev. 22:8-9
8. And I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God."
Rev. 19:10
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
The worship is pointed to God and not angels. The angel should not mentioned the phrase “Worship God,” if they are (really) to be worshipped.
Acts 14:11-15
11. And when the multitudes saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have become like men and have come down to us."
12. And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker.
13. And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds.
14. But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out
15. and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you in order that you should turn from these vain
See how Paul refuted and disagree on how the people in Lyconia treated them as gods.
Heb. 1:5-6
5. For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"Thou art My Son, And again,
6. And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,
"And let all the angels of God worship Him."
If angels are not to be worshiped, the belief that the Son of God (Jesus) is Archangel Michael will not pass and contradict with this scripture.
Thanks
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
If that will be the case that they are the same person, how come an angel is the Saviour of our sins. Let us check with these verses:
Phil. 2:9-11
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him (Jesus), and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Archangel Michael every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Archangel Michael is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Are the angels other than Michael God too? Is Archangel Michael a begotten Son? How come he is?
How would you reconcile John 1:1 with your procreated Archangel Michael and Jesus Christ in their existence?
Heb. 2:16
16. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
How would you reconcile this verse? This is proving that Jesus never took on him the nature of angels. A big contradiction.
Thanks
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
First off, I don't really try to reconcile anything concerning the subject as I don't consider it worth anything other than for people who like to argue to have something to argue about.
But, since you asked, I would reconcile Hebrews 2:16 in the following manner: Hebrews 2:16 "For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham." (ASV)
I am sorry for you that your KJV so grossly mistranslated that verse but that was not my fault. I didn't do it. The words, " him the nature of", are complete additions to that text. Your KJV translators, being Trinity believers, desired what was there said to be about his nature and so they made it out to be even though it isn't so.
John 1:1 fits just fine with the image of God and the son of God that the scriptures very clearly say Jesus is and just as Adam clearly was. Sorry if that troubles you.
And as for your first line, that is just pure nonsensical sarcasm. I don't debate ignorance.
Added: I should have explained that what Hebrews 2:16 is in reference to a prophecy saying that God would send us help. This is what the ASV translators realized but the bias of the KJV translators caused of their Trinity belief blinded them from seeing. But it was not to those fallen angels that God sent that help, it was to the seed of Abraham, a man.
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