JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

[Yoshua]

First off, I don't really try to reconcile anything concerning the subject as I don't consider it worth anything other than for people who like to argue to have something to argue about.

But, since you asked, I would reconcile Hebrews 2:16 in the following manner: Hebrews 2:16 "For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham." (ASV)

I am sorry for you that your KJV so grossly mistranslated that verse but that was not my fault. I didn't do it. The words, " him the nature of", are complete additions to that text. Your KJV translators, being Trinity believers, desired what was there said to be about his nature and so they made it out to be even though it isn't so.

John 1:1 fits just fine with the image of God and the son of God that the scriptures very clearly say Jesus is and just as Adam clearly was. Sorry if that troubles you.

And as for your first line, that is just pure nonsensical sarcasm. I don't debate ignorance.

Added: I should have explained that what Hebrews 2:16 is in reference to a prophecy saying that God would send us help. This is what the ASV translators realized but the bias of the KJV translators caused of their Trinity belief blinded them from seeing. But it was not to those fallen angels that God sent that help, it was to the seed of Abraham, a man.

Hi Mountain,

Ok. What is the perfect explanation why John 1:1, the Word was a god is small g instead of big G?

Do you believe that Jesus is a Mighty God or a Mighty god?

So Archangel Michael is the only begotten Son. How can an angel become a begotten Son and a Son of God?

Where is Archangel Michael when Jesus exists on this earth? Where is Archangel Michael before Jesus exist? Where is Archangel Michael when Jesus ascended?

Thanks

 

[savagewind]

Hi Mountain,

Ok. What is the perfect explanation why John 1:1, the Word was a god is small g instead of big G?

Do you believe that Jesus is a Mighty God or a Mighty god?

So Archangel Michael is the only begotten Son. How can an angel become a begotten Son and a Son of God?

Where is Archangel Michael when Jesus exists on this earth? Where is Archangel Michael before Jesus exist? Where is Archangel Michael when Jesus ascended?

Thanks

It seems they exist together as two. No, make that three as Jesus had the holy spirit too. Three but one. Sounds familiar.

 

[savagewind]

It is written that Michael stands up for God's people on the last day during what looks like the great tribulation Daniel 12 and it is written that Jesus rides on the Lord's day Revelation 1:10. It seems they might appear together but as two different ones. Is it a mystery?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Hi Mountain,

Ok. What is the perfect explanation why John 1:1, the Word was a god is small g instead of big G?

Do you believe that Jesus is a Mighty God or a Mighty god?

So Archangel Michael is the only begotten Son. How can an angel become a begotten Son and a Son of God?

Where is Archangel Michael when Jesus exists on this earth? Where is Archangel Michael before Jesus exist? Where is Archangel Michael when Jesus ascended?

Thanks

From the standpoint of being faithfully and perfectly the Word of his Father, one could say the Word was God as that Word projected only God's will rather than the Son's.

The Word is not a personal identity for the Son. It is a similar situation to how angelic messengers of God were addressed as God, the Word they bore being recognized as God speaking in and through them. John proceeds speaking things which clearly show he did not see Jesus as personally being God. He saw Jesus as a God bearer. And that is what an image is.

However, it is my opinion that far too much is attempted to be built up and off of this rather isolated verse. The claims made concerning Jesus supposedly claiming to be the great "I AM" are totally preposterous beyond shear ignorance to the point of outright deliberate falsification. There is no valid equivalent in the ancient scripture as they claim. But once men have been for whatever reason manipulated into a place where they espouse falsities they also go to an unsteady man's length in trying to defend those falsities. In that way the ones who sowed the very first seeds of this deception, while merely desiring to create something clear to point to that their brethren would believe it and keep away from it, they unwittingly participated in the creation of a monster larger than they ever dreamed of.

 

[savagewind]

From the standpoint of being faithfully and perfectly the Word of his Father, one could say the Word was God as that Word projected only God's will rather than the Son's.

The Word is not a personal identity for the Son. It is a similar situation to how angelic messengers of God were addressed as God, the Word they bore being recognized as God speaking in and through them. John proceeds speaking things which clearly show he did not see Jesus as personally being God. He saw Jesus as a God bearer. And that is what an image is.

However, it is my opinion that far too much is attempted to be built up and off of this rather isolated verse. The claims made concerning Jesus supposedly claiming to be the great "I AM" are totally preposterous beyond shear ignorance to the point of outright deliberate falsification. There is no valid equivalent in the ancient scripture as they claim. But once men have been for whatever reason manipulated into a place where they espouse falsities they also go to an unsteady man's length in trying to defend those falsities. In that way the ones who sowed the very first seeds of this deception, while merely desiring to create something clear to point to that their brethren would believe it and keep away from it, they unwittingly participated in the creation of a monster larger than they ever dreamed of.

Can this apply to you too? Can the underlined part apply to you?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Lastly, Satan appointed himself as such an archangel in defiance of God but in our holy scriptures Satan clearly remains subordinate to Michael, whom our holy scriptures identify as the chief over all angels.)

If Michael and Jesus are the same being, if satan is subordinate to Michael, how come it would have been a blasphemous judgment for Michael to rebuke satan?

Jude 1:8-9 (ESVST) 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

 

[Mountain_Climber]

If Michael and Jesus are the same being, if satan is subordinate to Michael, how come it would have been a blasphemous judgment for Michael to rebuke satan?

Jude 1:8-9 (ESVST) 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

Because judgment belongs to the Father. To those he exalts it belongs only to speak what he has judged. God exalts the faithful not so they can play God, but so that they can serve the needs of others. It is this world's idea that a king does as he wills, including judges as seems good only to himself.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

How does that support that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are likely one and the same person? The angels are God's heavenly family and Michael is their head evidently in and through whom they were procreated, even as Adam was created in the image of heavenly things, our head, in and through whom we were procreated.

Col 1:15-17 (ESVST) 15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Because judgment belongs to the Father. To those he exalts it belongs only to speak what he has judged. God exalts the faithful not so they can play God, but so that they can serve the needs of others. It is this world's idea that a king does as he wills, including judges as seems good only to himself.

Hmmm, Michael didn't have the authority to rebuke, but Jesus did.

Jud 1:8-9 (ESVST) 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

Mat 17:18 (ESVST) 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly

Mar 1:25 (ESVST) 25 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silent, and come out of him!" 26 And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying out with a loud voice, came out of him.

Mar 9:25 (ESVST) 25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."

 

[djhwoodwerks]

This is a bunch of jibber-jabber.

However, it is my opinion that far too much is attempted to be built up and off of this rather isolated verse. The claims made concerning Jesus supposedly claiming to be the great "I AM" are totally preposterous beyond shear ignorance to the point of outright deliberate falsification. There is no valid equivalent in the ancient scripture as they claim. But once men have been for whatever reason manipulated into a place where they espouse falsities they also go to an unsteady man's length in trying to defend those falsities. In that way the ones who sowed the very first seeds of this deception, while merely desiring to create something clear to point to that their brethren would believe it and keep away from it, they unwittingly participated in the creation of a monster larger than they ever dreamed of.

John 8:56-58 (ESVST) 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, " Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Hmmm, Michael didn't have the authority to rebuke, but Jesus did.

Jud 1:8-9 (ESVST) 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

Mat 17:18 (ESVST) 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly

Mar 1:25 (ESVST) 25 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silent, and come out of him!" 26 And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying out with a loud voice, came out of him.

Mar 9:25 (ESVST) 25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."

You like to twist things to the convenience of your preferred views, don't you?

What Michael did was a rebuke and it was indeed Michael doing the rebuking. He merely did not use the rebuke in a judgmental fashion. That is, Michael did not say to the devil, 'May God rebuke you and as you are worthy of being cast into the lake of fire." But Michael most certainly did rebuke the devil.

You seem to like to confuse the word, "rebuke", with the word, "judge".

 

[Mountain_Climber]

This is a bunch of jibber-jabber.



John 8:56-58 (ESVST) 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, " Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

"I am from before Abraham was."

Beyond that is your wishful thinking.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Col 1:15-17 (ESVST) 15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Still, when Jesus does judge his judgment is righteous because he judges only as the Father has showed him to judge, making the judgement in reality the Father's.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

"I am from before Abraham was."

Beyond that is your wishful thinking.

Just like the JW's, you are denying Who Jesus is. If you believe like they do, that Jesus was Michael in heaven, how can Jesus say, "I am before Abraham was"? Michael was before Abraham, not Jesus.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

You like to twist things to the convenience of your preferred views, don't you?

What Michael did was a rebuke and it was indeed Michael doing the rebuking. He merely did not use the rebuke in a judgmental fashion. That is, Michael did not say to the devil, 'May God rebuke you and as you are worthy of being cast into the lake of fire." But Michael most certainly did rebuke the devil.

You seem to like to confuse the word, "rebuke", with the word, "judge".

I'm not confusing anything. You just refuse to see the truth. Let the scripture speak for itself.

Jude 1:9 (ESVST) 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." (It doesn't say, "Michael rebuked the devil")

Mat 17:18 (ESVST) 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly. (Who rebuked the demon?)

Mar 1:25 (ESVST) 25 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silent, and come out of him!" (Who rebuked the unclean spirit?)

Did Jesus have to say, "the Lord rebuke you"?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Still, when Jesus does judge his judgment is righteous because he judges only as the Father has showed him to judge, making the judgement in reality the Father's.

You are confused, where does that verse talk about judgment of any sort?

 

[savagewind]

Because judgment belongs to the Father. To those he exalts it belongs only to speak what he has judged. God exalts the faithful not so they can play God, but so that they can serve the needs of others. It is this world's idea that a king does as he wills, including judges as seems good only to himself.

I think I need you to answer the question please.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I think I need you to answer the question please.

Who cares what you think?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I think I need you to answer the question please.

People who believe that Jesus was Michael can't answer that question. There is no scripture that says Jesus was Michael. They denounce the Trinity because the Bible doesn't come right out and teach it, but they believe that garbage about Michael/Jesus when the Bible doesn't come right out and teach it.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Just like the JW's, you are denying Who Jesus is. If you believe like they do, that Jesus was Michael in heaven, how can Jesus say, "I am before Abraham was"? Michael was before Abraham, not Jesus.

I am sure that makes sense to you.

But Jesus had full awareness of his heavenly heritage. And the basic personality of who he was had not changed.