JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

[savagewind]

The writer of Revelation saw a vision. Visions are day dreams. Dreams come from a person's own experience. So the Michael in the writers dream pictures knowledge of the Michael that Daniel wrote about. Revelations is not a prophecy of events that are destined to happen. I think it is a record of the mind of the writer who saw Truth in vision. Jesus is the way, the truth, and life. I agree that what he saw was inspired of God. Inspired of God does not mean God's message. A painter might be inspired of the ocean and paint it. A writer is inspired by his muse and then writes reflecting that feeling.

God's word is this: I will never leave you nor forsake you Deuteronomy 31:6 Genesis 28:15 Deuteronomy 4:31 Deuteronomy 20:4
Oh! Deuteronomy 20:4 seems to be saying God will do that. JWs and Ron say Michael will do that.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Nancy
Again with the verbal gymnastics. When you say what is the group's message does it fit the definition you just gave? The prophets brought the message from God of what he was like. Jesus brought the message in the flesh. He showed in person what God is like. If Jesus said only what the Father taught him and you said you agreed, isn't that bringing the message of what the Father told him? The message Jesus brought was the testimony about the Father's character.

Let me get into the wine analogy God has given us.

REVELATION 14 : 8 "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

As you said you knew, Babylon means confusion. Babylon represents false religions. They are adulterers because they go after a false picture of God. Mankind is supposed to be the bride of Christ. Going after a false picture of him they commit adultery. This false picture is maddening wine. It makes mankind believe this is what God is like. They distort God's character. God is love and pagan gods demand appeasement by sacrifice.

The entire world sacrificed to their gods before Jesus came. God had to restore trust in himself by showing the world the true picture of his character which Adam had destroyed by running in fear from God. As the verse in Hosea said, Adam broke the covenant (contract). As I tried to show in the prior post mankind was created to restore the doubt Lucifer brought into the minds of God's created beings.

Read Isaiah 5. It says that God's vineyard is the Jews. God put a winepress in the vineyard, but the Jews did not produce good grapes. They like the pagans sacrificed to appease their god.

Now go to Psalm 80. Verse 7 says for God to restore us. Bring our minds back to a true picture of God. It said God would do this by bringing a vine out of Egypt. The Jews which were the grapevine that God would plant in Israel to show what he was like. But, we know they failed.

PSALM 80 : 16 "Your vine is cutdown, it is burned with fire; at your rebuke your people perish."

Read the parable of the tenants. Jesus relates it to this Psalm. First the father sent his servants and finally his son. They kept asking for fruit. Fruit to make wine out of. The prophets kept warning the Jews that they must trust in God but they never would. God gave them a perfect diet, health rules and a moral code to live by. If they would just trust in God and worship him he would shower all kinds of benefits on them showing the loving God that he is. The rest of mankind would be drawn to Israel to find out about this loing God. By not worshiping him, God could do nothing because the credit would have gone to whatever other god they were worshiping.

Now verse 17 says what would happen because the Jews failed to do what God had planned.

VERSE 17 "Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself."
I suppose you'll say this isn't Jesus, so I'll let Jesus say it is.

JOHN 15 : 1 "I am the true vine"

as I keep telling you Jesus came to show God's true character, not to pay a penalty. The people that say they accept Christ as their Savior because he paid a penalty are condemning themselves. They are condemning themselves because they believe in a punishing god as shown at Mount Sinai.

When the Pharisees came out to John the Baptist he said, "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance." Repent means to turn and have a change of mind. The pharisees worshiped the Mount Sinai god. They were supposed to instead accept Jesus as the Son of God. Jesus said he was just like the Father. but, Jesus was nothing like the Mount Sinai god.

Jesus told the apostles to go out and do as he had done. They were supposed to spread the gospel which was the truth that we do not have a legalistic tyrant for a God but that Jesus is the picture of God. In Romans Paul said that the disciples were the FIRSTFRUITS of the SPIRIT. They as Christ would be the first to show the character of God to the world.

It said firstfruits of the Spirit.

1 JOHN 5 : 7 "And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth."

Jesus said I only say what the Father has taught me.

JOHN 14 ; 16 "and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-the Spirit of Truth.'
JOHN 16 : 8 "When he comes he will expose the guilt of the world in regard to sin"
JOHN 16 : 9 "In regard to sin, because people do not believe in me"
JOHN 16 : 13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN: HE WILL SPEAK ONLY WHAT HE HEARS"
JOHN 16 : 15 "all that belongs to the father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."

Basically the Spirit was continuing the work of Jesus. Jesus got all from the Father and the Spirit takes from Jesus what the Father gave Jesus.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Nancy

No sense in continuing. You completely distort Scripture. You say Revelation was a daydream and not prophecy of what is to come.

REVELATION 1 : 1 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants WHAT MUST SOON TAKE PLACE"

Good Luck on your studies.

 

[savagewind]

Nancy

No sense in continuing. You completely distort Scripture. You say Revelation was a daydream and not prophecy of what is to come.

REVELATION 1 : 1 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants WHAT MUST SOON TAKE PLACE"

Good Luck on your studies.

You trust in the English translation. I don't.

 

[savagewind]

The irony is this. It is evident to me that scripture has been distorted. There are people who love it in its distorted condition more than they love their own lives and they won't listen to me because I "distort scripture".

 

[Yoshua]

Michael in Hebrew means "one who is like God. Arch means chief and angel means messenger. God's messengers were the prophets.

Hi Ron,

Just to clarify with your statement, do you mean that angels like Archangel Michael is a prophet?

Thanks

 

[savagewind]

Nancy

No sense in continuing. You completely distort Scripture. You say Revelation was a daydream and not prophecy of what is to come.

REVELATION 1 : 1 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants WHAT MUST SOON TAKE PLACE"

Good Luck on your studies.

What behooves to take place in quickness
Behooves "is necessary"
Take place "continue"
Quickness "without doubt or consideration"

You place the events of Revelation after the writing of it. That is a mistranslation of it.

 

[Yoshua]

Gideon worshiped an angel (messenger). The messenger allowed it to happen. The messenger in no way tried to stop it as the angel in Revelation had. So now are you going to tell me it was a rogue angel. If you want to you can spin scripture any way you want.

Hi Ron,

Are you referring to Joshua? This is another case where preincarnate Christ—a theopany. Joshua will not bow down if He was just an angel.

There was a messenger (angel) in the bush when Moses approached it. when Moses approached the bush GOD called FROM WITHIN the bush that Moses was standing on holy ground. Are you going to say there were two in the bush?

In Joshua 5 the leader of the Lord's army allowed Joshua to worship him and told him he was standing on holy ground (was in the presence of the Lord)

Of course, there is an angel beside God, but in actuality it seems that the angel was worshiped, and it is not--but the worship belongs to God Almighty. If the case--is God appeared to Moses without an angel, I don't think Moses will bow down to an angel.

Thanks

 

[savagewind]

Some words in the language of the writing such as quick do not have a good corresponding word for the same in another language.
I think that it is helpful to look at other scriptures which have the same word. For instance Luke 18:8 Acts of the Apostles 12:7 Acts of the Apostles 22:18 Acts of the Apostles 25:4

These instances show that the word is related to something happening without hesitation.

Let it be is what it means. Matthew 15:14

 

[Ron Hackel]

Yoshua
I hate repeating myself, but I don't know if you read my post on Michael the Archangel. The word angel is translated from the Greek word angelos. It means a messenger. The word angel is not a type of being it is a job description. No more and no less. I don't know how Satan does it, but this should really be obvious. There are many cases where the angel (messenger) is worshiped. IT IS JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you go to post 602 you'll see the analogy that God gave us of wine. In it Jesus comes as a messenger. He brings the word made flesh. The prophets brought the word through Scripture to help the Jews do their job, which was showing the true character of God. But Jesus brought the word of truth in the flesh. If Jesus came to pay a penalty, why did he say, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15:24). In Daniel 9:24 Gabriel told Daniel that the Jews were to do away with sin. Psalm 78 tells us there sin was not trusting in a loving God. Jesus was sent to do away with sin. Adam brought sin on the world by running and hiding from a loving Father. He passed this fear to his offspring. Through Adam all sin. Sin reigned from the time of Adam. Everyone sacrificed to appease their gods. They like you thought they were worshiping a true god.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Yoshua

Jesus role was to come as a prophet. Again this does not make him a created being. It was just WHY he came. Let me give you another analogy that shows why Jesus came. In Matthew we have the second coming described as Jesus separating the sheep from the goats. Satan puts in peoples minds that God is judging which are sheep and which are goats and physically separates the two.

JOHN 10 : 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me."
JOHN 10 : 3 "The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice."
HOSEA 9 : 8 "The prophet, along with my God (Jesus), is the watchman over Ephraim"

The prophets and Jesus showed the true character of God. They thus opened the gate (our minds) to what God's true character was. At the second coming God raises all from their graves and they have to make a choice to come into New Jerusalem which has come down from heaven to save us from an earth that is about to explode.

All churches teach that you float into heaven. When you end up on an earth that is convulsing all around you about to explode and you see this huge wall of fire, you'll think you're one of the lost. If you believe in a punishing god you'll run in fear from the fiery wall.

ZECHARIAH 2 : 5 "And I myself will be a wall of fire around it."

God said he would be a wall around the city and his appearance is one of a devouring fire. Scripture says exactly what will happen:

ISAIAH 2 : 19 "Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from dread of the Lord and the splendor of his majesty (this is his glory which the Jews thought was a devouring fire at Mount Sinai) when he rises to shake the earth."
I hope you can see why Jesus had to come to show the true character of God. If you are stuck with the picture of god from Mount Sinai you'll be scared silly.

 

[psychoslice]

You trust in the English translation. I don't.

I personally don't trust any translation, because that's all it is, a translation, someone's own language which to me is biased.

 

[savagewind]

Yoshua
I hate repeating myself, but I don't know if you read my post on Michael the Archangel. The word angel is translated from the Greek word angelos. It means a messenger. The word angel is not a type of being it is a job description. No more and no less. I don't know how Satan does it, but this should really be obvious. There are many cases where the angel (messenger) is worshiped. IT IS JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you go to post 602 you'll see the analogy that God gave us of wine. In it Jesus comes as a messenger. He brings the word made flesh. The prophets brought the word through Scripture to help the Jews do their job, which was showing the true character of God. But Jesus brought the word of truth in the flesh. If Jesus came to pay a penalty, why did he say, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15:24). In Daniel 9:24 Gabriel told Daniel that the Jews were to do away with sin. Psalm 78 tells us there sin was not trusting in a loving God. Jesus was sent to do away with sin. Adam brought sin on the world by running and hiding from a loving Father. He passed this fear to his offspring. Through Adam all sin. Sin reigned from the time of Adam. Everyone sacrificed to appease their gods. They like you thought they were worshiping a true god.

I think what you do not understand is God's purpose TO GIVE Jesus Christ us. YOU say Jesus "comes with a message". But a message comes by a messenger from someone else. Matthew 28:18 Jesus IS the message. Jesus IS our salvation. Jesus IS our life. Jesus IS the truth. YOU say Jesus comes with the truth, but he said he is the truth. Did he not?

 

[savagewind]

Hebrews 10:20
by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

You and the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the way was opened through a message. Do you not?

Please tell us how this John 14:6 was written originally. Did Jesus really say, "I AM the truth" or did he say, "I have the truth"?

 

[savagewind]

Ron and the Jehovah's Witnesses by their teaching that Michael is Jesus Christ teach that an angel IS the truth.Please think about it.

By the way, I think I agree with you Ron that angel in the Bible does not mean spirit person. But that means the one called Satan and devil isn't a person either. Right?

 

[savagewind]

Agree with me or you get CUT OFF.
Haha.

Tell me please how it can be true that Jesus is the truth and also an angel.

 

[Ron Hackel]

All the messages given by the prophets showed what God was like. Jesus is the word in the flesh. You don't have to read about God you can see him. So Jesus was the message not in written form but in the flesh. As john said in 1 John 5:20, Jesus came to show him who is true. Everyone worshiped gods that were like the Mount Sinai god that are put in your mind by Satan. Jesus came and showed the true picture of God. You have to know the true picture of God at the second coming. You have to have a loving God in your mind or you will run from what looks like what you think hell is. If someone comes to you and says your house is burning when it is, is he not bringing you both the truth and a message?
\
I have no idea what the J.W. teach about a message. Enlighten me. after all our dialog, I have no clue what you think this 6000 years has been all about.

 

[savagewind]

All the messages given by the prophets showed what God was like. Jesus is the word in the flesh. You don't have to read about God you can see him. So Jesus was the message not in written form but in the flesh. As john said in 1 John 5:20, Jesus came to show him who is true. Everyone worshiped gods that were like the Mount Sinai god that are put in your mind by Satan. Jesus came and showed the true picture of God. You have to know the true picture of God at the second coming. You have to have a loving God in your mind or you will run from what looks like what you think hell is. If someone comes to you and says your house is burning when it is, is he not bringing you both the truth and a message?
\
I have no idea what the J.W. teach about a message. Enlighten me. after all our dialog, I have no clue what you think this 6000 years has been all about.

The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that their message is the message that will save you in the end. They say it has been 6000 years since Adam was created.

I agree with you that people call good bad and bad good and by doing so they will miss any deliverance that God has purposed.

 

[savagewind]

. Enlighten me. after all our dialog, I have no clue what you think this 6000 years has been all about.

I don't know anything about 6000 years except that when they count back the lives of the personalities in the Bible they get 6000 years. I do not believe in one human being God called Adam.

 

[Grandliseur]

Hello there,
Is Jesus the Archangel Michael? This is the crucial question that every JW should be given attention. I met some JW members before and I find it this doctrine cannot be reconciled, and still contradicting until now.
Thanks

Personally, I simply go by scripture all the way, and if scripture leaves me where I cannot answer yes or no, then I accept this and hope that in a future time we might finally be informed clearly.

The problem with Michael being Jesus is that there are both pros and cons to this - serious ones at that:
Cons: in the scripture just below Jude gives us reasons to not accept this view.

*[[Jud 1:1]] Darby* Jude, bondman of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to the called ones beloved in God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ:
*[[Jud 1:9]] Darby* But Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he reasoned about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a railing judgment against him , but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

As may be seen in verse one, Jude mentions our Lord by name. There is no reason for him not to inform us about who disputed with Satan! Yet, Jude tells us that not Jesus Christ, our Lord, but Michael the archangel was the one who disputed with Satan. This is not logical if the two are one and same. To me this is a big obstacle to accepting that Michael and Jesus are one and same.

Pros:
When Michael is mentioned in Revelation: *[[Rev 12:7]] Darby* And there was war in the heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon fought, and his angels;

- I might accept this as Michael being Jesus for otherwise how are we to understand this relates to the prophecy of Daniel wherein he does use Michael's name!

*[[Dan 12:1]] Darby* And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation until that time. And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that is found written in the book.

Here Michael is shown as a great prince that stands for us, Christians and Jews. How can this be anyone but Christ!
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Conclusion: my conclusion is therefore that, the matter remains obscure and without solution.