JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

[Wharton]

Since he was born of a human mother, in the correct family line, in the designated place....he most definitely was human in every respect. As the last Adam, his life had to equal Adam's in value. This is why we had to be the "son of man" in order to pay the ransom. A perfect, sinless life had to be offered to atone for the perfect sinless life Adam lost for his children. That is Jehovah's law...."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life...."

There's no tap dancing out of this one. JW Jesus was not conceived. He is no ransom for OUR humanity as he does not share our humanity. End of story.

BTW, your ransom sacrifice also fails as 1)God does not accept human sacrifice and 2) More than a perfect man was offended. An infinite being was offended by Adam and Eve. You need more than a finite being to atone to the infinite. You need a God/Man as an acceptable sacrifice.

 

[JayJayDee]

There you go. I've been waiting for that. JW Jesus DOES NOT SHARE our humanity. He just pops into Mary's womb. He's NOT CONCEIVED. Your Jesus can NEVER be a ransom for humanity.

Excuse me? Jesus had no earthly father.....so what popped into Mary's womb? He was conceived by holy spirit as the Bible plainly says. How do you come to this conclusion?

 

[JFish123]

Funny you should describe your own situation so well.

Despite all the evidence presented to you...you still choose to believe Christendom's version of Christianity and rationalise why your churches fail to preach...why they get involved in politics, wars and bloodshed....and why they tolerate pagan beliefs and festivals despite the fact that we are told to separate from all of that. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

You can't say we didn't try. The "weeds" choked out the truth so long ago that most wouldn't know it if it jumped up and bit them. You put so much trust in your own teachers, yet whine and complain about how much trust we put in ours.

It's time you looked at your own belief system and identified some home truths. Remove the rafter and all that....

I put my trust in Gods word, not in any teacher (or organization). So if any false teachers come up, say the prosperity gospel preachers, the universalism preachers, I know better
You speak of going to war and being in politics. I assume you think everyone who calls themselves Christians are perfect? Then we wouldn't need a savior then would we? I'd rather vote the bible and Gods truth, then let those who do not know it run the country for me your basically letting them do what they want. Your letting them make policies that kill the unborn and promote sin, just because you think it's wrong to get involved, your letting evil prevail. Knowing you can help but doing nothing, is just as bad as the sin itself. What was it?
"...for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." (Matthew 25:42-45)
You and ALL the Jehovahs Witnesses don't have to run for office, but you can help vote for people who best hold your biblical values to protect, and help people, but because of some misguided belief, you let evil triumph.

 

[Wharton]

Excuse me? Jesus had no earthly father.....so what popped into Mary's womb? He was conceived by holy spirit as the Bible plainly says. How do you come to this conclusion?

None of your material states that he was conceived. Just transferred.

 

[Wharton]

Knowing you can help but doing nothing, is just as bad as the sin itself. What was it?

It's called a sin of omission.

 

[JayJayDee]

There's no tap dancing out of this one. JW Jesus was not conceived. He is no ransom for OUR humanity as he does not share our humanity. End of story.

Fingers in both ears whistling Dixie.....end of story? I don't think so.

Jesus was a "ransom" because he did not share our sinfulness....do you understand that? He was the "last Adam" because his life corresponded to Adam's....sinless. He did not have to be God to offer his life....all he had to be was perfect....and a human being born in the tribe of Judah.

BTW, your ransom sacrifice also fails as 1)God does not accept human sacrifice

Jesus was a "ransom" not a human sacrifice.....he paid the price to release us from an endless cycle of sin and death (from which we could not extract ourselves, no matter how long we lived.)

2) More than a perfect man was offended. An infinite being was offended by Adam and Eve. You need more than a finite being to atone to the infinite. You need a God/Man as an acceptable sacrifice.

False assumption. Who said that God was only offended. The first humans broke a law that carried the death penalty.
The consequences were clearly stated before they ever took a bite of that fruit. Adam and his wife paid for their sin with the forfeit of their own lives....but their children were born in sin through no fault of their own. Jehovah made the way for another life to be offered to release them from Adam's terrible legacy. That is why his sacrifice is called a ransom....it's not rocket science.

 

[JayJayDee]

None of your material states that he was conceived. Just transferred.

Since Gabriel said that Mary would "conceive in her womb"....I think you are operating on another false assumption.

 

[Wharton]

Jesus was a "ransom" not a human sacrifice.....he paid the price to release us from an endless cycle of sin and death (from which we could not extract ourselves, no matter how long we lived.)

Go read your material and stop the misinformation. Jews don't do human sacrifice. But JW's do.

13 How was the ransom paid? On the 14th day of the Jewish month Nisan in 33 C.E., God allowed his perfect and sinless Son to be executed. Jesus thus sacrificed his perfect human life “once for all time.” (Hebrews 10:10) On the third day after Jesus died, Jehovah raised him back to spirit life. In heaven, Jesus presented to God the value of his perfect human life sacrificed as a ransom in exchange for Adam’s offspring. (Hebrews 9:24) Jehovah accepted the value of Jesus’ sacrifice as the ransom needed to deliver mankind from slavery to sin and death.

 

[Wharton]

Since Gabriel said that Mary would "conceive in her womb"....I think you are operating on another false assumption

Nothing about "conceived" in your material. Which is correct? Your JW material or the bible?

14. How did Jehovah’s only-begotten Son come to be born as a human?

14 Jehovah’s only-begotten Son willingly left heaven and came down to earth to live as a human. But you may wonder, ‘How was it possible for a spirit creature to be born as a human?’ To accomplish this, Jehovah performed a miracle. He transferred the life of his firstborn Son from heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary. No human father was involved. Mary thus gave birth to a perfect son and named him Jesus.—Luke 1:30-35.

 

[Wharton]

False assumption. Who said that God was only offended.

All that matters is that God was offended and a finite created creature can not atone to the infinite. That's a fact.

 

[JFish123]

All that matters is that God was offended and a finite created creature can not atone to the infinite. That's a fact.

Perhaps, that is why God Himself came down in the form of a man, Jesus Christ (2nd person of the Trinity) to atone for our sins. Gods Love us that much. Jesus who was both Fully God and Fully Man. Infinite to atone for the infinite.

 

[james2ko]

In Thessalonians we see that the Lord is descending from heaven and He is shouting with the voice of the archangel. Most people seem to think that it is the archangel that is shouting and not Jesus. Actually there are two possible meanings to the text: (1) the archangel could be shouting for Jesus; or (2) Jesus could be doing the shouting Himself and he is using the voice of an archangel because He is the Archangel Himself; Michael the Archangel.

A closer look at the grammar, would render the first option the most likely:

The preposition "en" [with] associated with the dative nouns "shout", "voice", and "trumpet" suggest a time-- not an associative aspect. To imply Christ as the one shouting, the preposition "meta" would have been inspired. Meta denotes a sense of accompaniment:

Strongs G3326 ; meta met-ah'--A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment; “amid” (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive case association, or accusative case succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between G575 or G1537 and G1519 or G4314; less intimate than G1722, and less close than G4862): - after (-ward),X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-) on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-) to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.

As opposed to "en":

A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion [descend is a verb of motion] , and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with [meta] quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with [en] a shout [dative], with [en] the voice [dative] of the archangel, and with [en] the trump [dative] of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ​

In the first passage, the preposition "meta" denoting accompaniment is utilized with the genitive noun "quietness". In contrast, our verse uses "en" which reflects an aspect of time with its dative nouns. The preposition "en" is translated "at" 113 times in the NT. IMHO, inserting "at" instead of "with" would have been more consistent with the definitions above and better exemplified the separation between Christ and the angelic host we read about in Hebrews and other places.

 

[Wharton]

Since Gabriel said that Mary would "conceive in her womb"....I think you are operating on another false assumption.

Not in your bible:

In her sixth month, the angel Ga′bri·el+ was sent from God to a city of Gal′i·lee named Naz′a·reth, 27 to a virgin+ promised in marriage* to a man named Joseph of David’s house, and the name of the virgin was Mary.+ 28 And coming in, the angel said to her: “Greetings, you highly favored one, Jehovah* is with you.” 29 But she was deeply disturbed at his words and tried to understand what kind of greeting this might be. 30 So the angel said to her: “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And look! you will become pregnant* and give birth to a son,+ and you are to name him Jesus.+ 32 This one will be great+ and will be called Son of the Most High,+ and Jehovah* God will give him the throne of David his father,+ 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”+

 

[Wharton]

Perhaps, that is why God Himself came down in the form of a man, Jesus Christ (2nd person of the Trinity) to atone for our sins. Gods Love us that much. Jesus who was both Fully God and Fully Man. Infinite to atone for the infinite.

Unfortunately, JW's can't grasp that simple concept.

 

[JayJayDee]

I put my trust in Gods word, not in any teacher (or organization).

If that were true, then you would reject all those teachings that you hold...every one of them was introduced by Christendom from outside the Christian faith. They were first formulated by Roman Catholicism and carried over into Protestantism, though I see you downgrade the Catholic religion almost as much as you do JW's. This is the history of your own beliefs....so how about you be up front about where your own religion originated? You are the pot calling the kettle black.

So if any false teachers come up, say the prosperity gospel preachers, the universalism preachers, I know better

Do you? Or do you only think you do? Remember that those whom Jesus says he "never knew" believe that they are good Christians (Matt 7:13:21-23)......why does Jesus say they are "workers of lawlessness"? It isn't man's laws they are breaking.

You speak of going to war and being in politics. I assume you think everyone who calls themselves Christians are perfect?

Hardly. That has been a good part of our defence in case you failed to notice.

Then we wouldn't need a savior then would we? I'd rather vote the bible and Gods truth, then let those who do not know it run the country for me your basically letting them do what they want. Your letting them make policies that kill the unborn and promote sin, just because you think it's wrong to get involved, your letting evil prevail. Knowing you can help but doing nothing, is just as bad as the sin itself.

That is not the attitude Christ displayed nor one that he promoted to his apostles....was it? His own people were being oppressed by the callous and cruel Roman Empire, yet not once did Jesus tell his disciples to side with the zealots who were trying to fight for their freedom. Rather, the admonition was to obey the ones who hold authority over you. We were not to oppose them, nor to be part of this world and its rulership...do you know why? Because the one who rules the world will have his come-upance in the very near future with no interference from us.....and no genuine Christian will be found with a foot in both camps. Nor will they be found with blood on their hands.(2 Pet 3:11-14; Isa 1:15)

We are told to 'love our enemies'....it's a bit hard to do that with a gun, a tank or a bomb, don't you think? You obviously have no faith in God's ability to fulfil his own purpose. The cramped and narrow road doesn't need widening to accommodate the patriots who mistakenly think they are Christians.

What was it?
"...for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." (Matthew 25:42-45)

Who is Jesus addressing in these verses? There are 4 parties spoken about here....Christ, his "brothers" and those who did, or did not, do good to them. Who are Christ's "brothers" so that supporting them or not supporting them means life or death? Did you never stop to really read the words?

You and ALL the Jehovahs Witnesses don't have to run for office, but you can help vote for people who best hold your biblical values to protect, and help people, but because of some misguided belief, you let evil triumph.

What part of "NO PART OF THE WORLD" do you fail to understand? If "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" (1 John 5:19)...the one whom Jesus calls "the ruler of this world" (John 14:30) then how could any Christian in any sort of conscience "vote" for someone who serves the interests of the devil? In case you hadn't noticed...this is his world. His stamp is all over it. JW's will not compromise on this stand. We are completely neutral. We will not get blood on our hands for any government. We do not see patriotism and religion as one and the same thing. We will not be fooled by satan's "angel of light" trick.

You just seem to dig a deeper hole for yourself with every post. I wish you would put down your weapons and just talk about the simple reality. I was on your side of the fence once....you have never been on mine.

 

[JayJayDee]

Not in your bible:

In her sixth month, the angel Ga′bri·el+ was sent from God to a city of Gal′i·lee named Naz′a·reth, 27 to a virgin+ promised in marriage* to a man named Joseph of David’s house, and the name of the virgin was Mary.+ 28 And coming in, the angel said to her: “Greetings, you highly favored one, Jehovah* is with you.” 29 But she was deeply disturbed at his words and tried to understand what kind of greeting this might be. 30 So the angel said to her: “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And look! you will become pregnant* and give birth to a son,+ and you are to name him Jesus.+ 32 This one will be great+ and will be called Son of the Most High,+ and Jehovah* God will give him the throne of David his father,+ 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”+

OMG! "You will become pregnant" means what? If you had bothered to see the footnote (see asterisk after the word "pregnant") you would see that it says "conceive in your womb". Since the revised NWT is about plain and simple language for today's readers, it simply says "become pregnant". The other expression is not used these days. So simplification is the key to understanding.

 

[JayJayDee]

Unfortunately, JW's can't grasp that simple concept.

That is probably because man made it up.

 

[JFish123]

If that were true, then you would reject all those teachings that you hold...every one of them was introduced by Christendom from outside the Christian faith. They were first formulated by Roman Catholicism and carried over into Protestantism, though I see you downgrade the Catholic religion almost as much as you do JW's. This is the history of your own beliefs....so how about you be up front about where your own religion originated? You are the pot calling the kettle black.



Do you? Or do you only think you do? Remember that those whom Jesus says he "never knew" believe that they are good Christians (Matt 7:13:21-23)......why does Jesus say they are "workers of lawlessness"? It isn't man's laws they are breaking.


Hardly. That has been a good part of our defence in case you failed to notice.



That is not the attitude Christ displayed nor one that he promoted to his apostles....was it? His own people were being oppressed by the callous and cruel Roman Empire, yet not once did Jesus tell his disciples to side with the zealots who were trying to fight for their freedom. Rather, the admonition was to obey the ones who hold authority over you. We were not to oppose them, nor to be part of this world and its rulership...do you know why? Because the one who rules the world will have his come-upance in the very near future with no interference from us.....and no genuine Christian will be found with a foot in both camps. Nor will they be found with blood on their hands.(2 Pet 3:11-14; Isa 1:15)

We are told to 'love our enemies'....it's a bit hard to do that with a gun, a tank or a bomb, don't you think? You obviously have no faith in God's ability to fulfil his own purpose. The cramped and narrow road doesn't need widening to accommodate the patriots who mistakenly think they are Christians.


Who is Jesus addressing in these verses? There are 4 parties spoken about here....Christ, his "brothers" and those who did, or did not, do good to them. Who are Christ's "brothers" so that supporting them or not supporting them means life or death? Did you never stop to really read the words?



What part of "NO PART OF THE WORLD" do you fail to understand? If "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" (1 John 5:19)...the one whom Jesus calls "the ruler of this world" (John 14:30) then how could any Christian in any sort of conscience "vote" for someone who serves the interests of the devil? In case you hadn't noticed...this is his world. His stamp is all over it. JW's will not compromise on this stand. We are completely neutral. We will not get blood on our hands for any government. We do not see patriotism and religion as one and the same thing. We will not be fooled by satan's "angel of light" trick.

You just seem to dig a deeper hole for yourself with every post. I wish you would put down your weapons and just talk about the simple reality. I was on your side of the fence once....you have never been on mine.

1. Those teaching I hold are in the Bible plain as day

2. The same can be said from Matthew 7:13; 21-23 to you as well and the verse doesn't say Christians but those who follow Christ as the term wasn't in use then.

3. Umm, the Roman Empire was controlled by one man (dictatorship), and the zealots in Jesus' day wanted to use violence to get what political gain they wanted. Today, we live in a democracy with checks and balances, and if we want to change something, we can vote on it, instead of using violence. So your argument is mute as it's a Bad analogy to try to make your point.

4. And so you will sit on your hands and let bad things happen because God will make things right in the end? God will make things right but until that happens it's our duty to help and protect those in need NOW. How many children died of abortion so far? 40 million? And yet you and the Watchtower still refuse to vote to elect godly officials who have the same biblical values you do, so they can protect the innocent? God works through His people. And nothing will change unless we let Him work through us in ALL areas of life, including politics to vote our conscience and godly values. And you think voting for someone who can vote to stop abortion, stop the slaughter, as well as help fund groups that can help feed the poor- you call that electing the devil?

 

[psychoslice]

For me all these words in scripture that seem to point to the man Jesus or Yeshua, comes from the Hebrew word

The word actually means "salvation.

All these words are nothing more than levels of Consciousness, when we ourselves are One in Consciousness or One in God, we also take on these labels, Jesus was a man that became Enlightened, and preached from his Enlightened state the Christ, which is another label, we also become the Christ when we are Self realized, that is realizing our true nature. This is all the man Jesus ever meant, but so many have taken the labels as literal, and have destroyed all true meaning which the labels pointed to, and so we have all these religions all calling themselves Christians.

 

[Wharton]

OMG! "You will become pregnant" means what? If you had bothered to see the footnote (see asterisk after the word "pregnant") you would see that it says "conceive in your womb". Since the revised NWT is about plain and simple language for today's readers, it simply says "become pregnant". The other expression is not used these days. So simplification is the key to understanding.

I'm just trying to figure out where JW Jesus is coming from as your literature doesn't jive with the NWT. Pregnant means to be carrying a baby. Transferred in your literature means Jesus could be a new human creation by Jehovah transferred to Mary's womb. Which one is authoritative? The Watchtower pamphlet or the NWT?

In either event, you still don't have a ransom sacrifice.