JW's Preach A Different Gospel

[katiemygirl]

........ See? Paul revelations direct from the Holy Spirit.
So that's why he didn't take much interest in what Jesus actually said or did, right?


Now just a sec....... you've already explained to me that Paul received his revelations direct from the Holy Spirit.
But since you mention it, Paul did not quote Jesus very much, did he?


I got that........ you want to challenge JW's interpretation of the Gospel, then you quote Galatians. Look, since you challenge one interpretation, surely I can challenge your interpretation?

There are two things I don't do on religious forums.

1. I do not argue the existence of God.

2. I do not argue the infallibility of God's word.

 

[katiemygirl]

I'm very curious to see a Jehovahs Witness defend Jesus was crucified on a stake. It's not so much a challenge but a "Why do you believe it when scripture says otherwise?"

I would also like to hear their defense for why JW's pray through Jesus if He is not their mediator. Watchtower says Jesus is mediator for the 144,000 alone.

*** w93 1/1 5 New Creations Brought Forth! ***
Jesus became the Mediator of a new covenant between God and a select group of men. Each of these has become “a new creation,” begotten by God’s spirit to a heavenly hope, with the prospect of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.—2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6; Hebrews 9:15.


*** w89 12/15 30 Do You Remember? ***
• In what sense does Paul use the term “mediator” when referring to Jesus at 1 Timothy 2:5, 6? In this text, Paul uses the Greek word me·si'tes for “mediator,” which term has a legal significance, so he is not using this word in the broad sense common in many languages. Hence, Paul is not saying that Jesus is Mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, he is referring to Christ as legal Mediator of the new covenant, which laid the basis for Christ’s anointed followers to share with him in his heavenly Kingdom. (2 Corinthians 5:1, 5; Ephesians 1:13, 14; Hebrews 8:7-13)—8/15, pages 30, 31.


Is this what Paul is saying in 1 Timothy 1:5-6?

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people...

 

[oldbadger]

And instead of knocking this poster, why don't you do the same thing you're asking him to do?

I asked, 'So here's your chance to tell us what your situation is.'
...and I've already explained my situation and feelings about JWs.
........true?

 

[oldbadger]

There are two things I don't do on religious forums.
1. I do not argue the existence of God.
2. I do not argue the infallibility of God's word.

But there's one thing that you do 'do' on RF..........
You argue about other people's interpretation of the bible, their belief in God's word.
You wrote, 'The JW's preach a different and false gospel.'
Then you give me a list of things that you don't do....
........ just saying......

 

[katiemygirl]

But there's one thing that you do 'do' on RF..........
You argue about other people's interpretation of the bible, their belief in God's word.
You wrote, 'The JW's preach a different and false gospel.'
Then you give me a list of things that you don't do....
........ just saying......

Absolutely I do debate anyone who preaches another gospel. That's what the thread is about.

Please tell us what gospel you preach.

 

[katiemygirl]

I asked, 'So here's your chance to tell us what your situation is.'
...and I've already explained my situation and feelings about JWs.
........true?

My situation? Do you mean my faith?

I believe in the one true God, that is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe the word of God is infallible.

 

[oldbadger]

My situation? Do you mean my faith?

I believe in the one true God, that is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe the word of God is infallible.

Katiemygirl..... I asked that question to dhwoodwerks, and you replied (to me) copying my post to that member.
However, I acknowledge your answer to that question.
So you believe in the Trinity, whereas JWs belief is more Unitarian... so I guess that their interpretation of the Scriptures is different to your own. I don't see any harm in that variance, because human diversity in faiths provides more colour to our world, I guess.
Fair enough...........

 

[oldbadger]

Absolutely I do debate anyone who preaches another gospel. That's what the thread is about.

Please tell us what gospel you preach.

I don't have a lot of good-news in that sense, but I'll answer as best as I can.
I believe that all is God (Deism) but that we are not any more important than, say, the sparrows and ducks in our garden.
I don't preach, but I'll defend the Gospel of Mark strongly, despite it's evangelical enthusiasms.
I am very very interested in G-Mark, and have been described as a G-Mark fanatic!

 

[katiemygirl]

I don't have a lot of good-news in that sense, but I'll answer as best as I can.
I believe that all is God (Deism) but that we are not any more important than, say, the sparrows and ducks in our garden.
I don't preach, but I'll defend the Gospel of Mark strongly, despite it's evangelical enthusiasms.
I am very very interested in G-Mark, and have been described as a G-Mark fanatic!

You don't think it's good news that Jesus has offered you life eternal?

And what would you say Mark's gospel, in a nutshell, is?

And doesn't Jesus command us to go into the world and preach the gospel, according to Mark??

 

[katiemygirl]

Katiemygirl..... I asked that question to dhwoodwerks, and you replied (to me) copying my post to that member.
However, I acknowledge your answer to that question.
So you believe in the Trinity, whereas JWs belief is more Unitarian... so I guess that their interpretation of the Scriptures is different to your own. I don't see any harm in that variance, because human diversity in faiths provides more colour to our world, I guess.
Fair enough...........

Yes, and I have had many good discussions with JW's about the trinity.

 

[Wharton]

And doesn't Jesus command us to go into the world and preach the gospel, according to Mark??

Only the apostles. Only the apostles.

 

[katiemygirl]

I don't have a lot of good-news in that sense, but I'll answer as best as I can.
I believe that all is God (Deism) but that we are not any more important than, say, the sparrows and ducks in our garden.
I don't preach, but I'll defend the Gospel of Mark strongly, despite it's evangelical enthusiasms.
I am very very interested in G-Mark, and have been described as a G-Mark fanatic!

Jesus didn't die for the sparrows, ducks or any other living thing. He died for you and me so that we might live forever.

You don't think it's good news that Jesus has offered you life eternal?

And what would you say Mark's gospel, in a nutshell, is?

And doesn't Jesus command us to go into the world and preach the gospel in Mark's writing?

 

[katiemygirl]

Only the apostles. Only the apostles.

If that were so, then why do we read about others in the NT preaching the gospel (Timothy, Phillip, Aquila and Priscilla, and so many more)?

Who was supposed to preach the gospel and baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit after the apostles died?

There haven't been any apostles since the first century. Who do you think has been spreading the good news for the past 1900 + years? How did christianity grow so quickly, and get spread to all parts of the world?

 

[Wharton]

Their appointed successors only. All others become the "Fathers" Jesus warned about.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I cannot trust you. Look what you wrote, above. ^^
Now look what you wrote, before... vvv


Who can trust your words?

Well, that's ok. I don't need you to trust me. The fact is men, women and children are being conditioned to believe they are superior to everyone who are not members of the JW's. They are trained to believe that anyone who doesn't accept that by the "QUESTION" Jesus asked about a faithful and discrete slave was a prophecy about the modern day GB are "MENTALLY DESEISED". It is not the people of the JW's that's at fault, it's the WTBTS and GB cult that is at fault.

 

[Baladas]

Sorry for the delay, I have been really busy for a couple of days.

Can I ask you why you left them? Perhaps we have something in common?

I left primarily because the God described in the Christian scriptures is cruel and petty.
My personal experiences of the Divine had led me to believe that God was kinder and more loving than that God.
...I am sure we have something in common though, other than our humanity of course.

I left the Anglican Church over 40 years ago. I have relatives and acquaintances who are still in the church. Not much has changed apparently. Same old beliefs and the same inept approach to preaching. Their outreach programs attempt to assist the poor but hand to mouth charity was never advocated by Jesus. It just doesn't work. As a Jew, the law provided for the poor by allowing them to glean in the fields where the outer perimeter was left unharvested so that the poor could work to gain their food.

I must admit that I am ignorant as to what the Anglican church is even like, so I can make no real comment about that.
I am not opposed to the idea of having those crops for the poor to harvest. Why not do that now?

Every outreach program that was put in place to help drug and alcohol addicted people was abused. Very few are helped to free themselves of their addictions and they will just continue to come for the free handouts. The people in the church who run the programs are becoming somewhat jaded because of the failure of their efforts to bring real change to people's lives

Well, there definitely is room for improvement when it comes to charities.
I would suggest that more time should be spent looking at how they can be improved.
Perhaps work of some measure should be required as they are able to encourage personal growth?

The minister of the Anglican Church where I live at present has recently been appointed to a government position (as chaplain) where he will be well paid. He left his church without a minister and not a few were upset about it.

That's unfortunate. Apparently he is very inconsiderate at the least.
It still does not mean that this is the case in all of Christianity.
I was a part of a church plant years ago where my pastor left a lucrative career to start the church.

He is one of the most honest and humble people I have ever met.

JW's do not run charity programs. Rather we help people on a personal level. We don't want "rice Christians"...those who come for the handouts and not for the spiritual instruction. All who are baptised as brothers and sisters in our congregations are under the same requirements. We know what God expects from us and we give our best to him as our circumstances allow. We don't expect handouts.

How is this help offered (without necessarily giving specific detail)?
I disagree that charity does not work. It has helped me in the past.
I have seen it help others.
There is always the problem of those who would take advantage, but this means to me that we should look for ways
to counter these attempts at taking advantage, not scrap charity entirely.

Paul's instruction at 2 Thessalonians 3:6-8, 10 gives us a standard...."Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you......For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat." (ESV)

And I do see some merit in this.
If someone is able to, they should repay a kindness (such as the giving of food) in some way.
This especially makes sense in the context it was likely intended.

Families who likely only had enough food for themselves would need someone to work
for their food. In the first world, our ludicrous abundance does not reflect this in the same exact way (although there certainly are poor, of which I am a part).

Jesus also said "you received free, give free"....I don't see that in the churches.

What exactly do you mean here? Regarding the payment of church workers?
Most I have known are only payed enough to live.

I thought it was a bit much myself. The minister never bothered to call personally to see if he could be of any spiritual help to us as a family but always expected the envelope to be in the plate on Sunday.

It sounds to me like this is a reflection on the character of this particular minister.
It is a stretch to apply this indiscriminately to all of "Christendom" as a whole.

My old pastor still sends me cards on my birthday (which I know you don't celebrate, but it is important to me).
The pastors would call, they offered to sit down and talk with you, you could pull them aside on Sunday to ask questions, they would visit you in the hospital...they were just good people.

The one thing that struck me about JW's is that no one is paid. The elders give of their time voluntarily to care for the needs of the congregation. There are no fees charged for weddings or funerals, and we do not have infant baptisms.

And that is noble, if one can manage to live that way...I will say that my old pastors regularly gave of their free time.
One of them would say sometimes that it was an on-call job, and that he needed to be ready to be there for people all the time.

I am glad to here about the lack of charges for those services, and I believe that is as it should be.

What did you find so difficult to accept? I never really found much of a message in church at all......nothing that made any sense anyway.
Only JW's gave me Bible based answers to all my questions.

I left because I could not accept that the Bible needed to be upheld at the cost of my critical thinking, and because the God
of the Christian scriptures is harsh and petty.

I do not want or need Bible-based answers, though I respect that others find their purpose there.
I actually got all of my questions answered right from the Bible. I was not satisfied.

What do you believe about life and the future now?

I believe that all of life is sacred, and inherently good, and that the future is a mystery.
Perhaps it can be glimpsed in part (I'm still uncertain) it can certainly be guessed at, but that's about it...
To be more philosophical about it, I don't technically believe that the future actually exists.
There is only the present. The future is only the coming present.

Peace to you.

 

[psychoslice]

So now you've invented your own religion, and it's the last piece of truth, right? Why not pick up a Bible, read it, and let the Holy Spirit guide you to what is truth. Don't listen to other people. Just take a deep breath, pick up a Bible, and quietly sit and read it. In the past, you looked for answers outside of the Bible, such as SDA (who claim to use the Scriptures). You didn't find it. But if you are truly seeking God's truth, Jesus promises you will find it. My best to you.

That's just what I did, and that's why I left religion.........now you are thinking. "he didn't do it right", see what I mean, you believe your way is the right way because you believe the holy spirit talked to you, so you must be right, come on lol.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Only the apostles. Only the apostles.

I agree somewhat with this statement. I don't believe that everyone is supposed to be preaching and teaching the Gospel. I believe that is the reason there is so much division in religion in the world today. The Bible says that, God appointed positions to teach and preach.

1Co 12:27-31 (ESVST) 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (Notice it says that God appointed in His CHURCH miracles, gifts of healing and various kinds of tongues. That's for a different discussion)

Rom 12:3-8 (ESVST) . 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

Everyone has their God chosen place in the Body of Christ. Not everyone has been assigned going door-to-door, teaching or preaching.

This is my thoughts how we are to preach the Gospel to the world around us. This is just my thoughts.

Mat 5:14-16 (ESVST) 14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

 

[katiemygirl]

I agree somewhat with this statement. I don't believe that everyone is supposed to be preaching and teaching the Gospel. I believe that is the reason there is so much division in religion in the world today. The Bible says that, God appointed positions to teach and preach.

1Co 12:27-31 (ESVST) 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (Notice it says that God appointed in His CHURCH miracles, gifts of healing and various kinds of tongues. That's for a different discussion)

Rom 12:3-8 (ESVST) . 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

Everyone has their God chosen place in the Body of Christ. Not everyone has been assigned going door-to-door, teaching or preaching.

This is my thoughts how we are to preach the Gospel to the world around us. This is just my thoughts.

Mat 5:14-16 (ESVST) 14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

This is true, but there are many ways to spread the gospel, one being that we show Jesus living in us. We let our light shine. Remember, too. One plants the seed, another waters.

 

[katiemygirl]

That's just what I did, and that's why I left religion.........now you are thinking. "he didn't do it right", see what I mean, you believe your way is the right way because you believe the holy spirit talked to you, so you must be right, come on lol.

Actually, I wasn't thinking anything about you because I have no idea what you believe.

You say you left religion. What does that mean?

Did Jesus belong to any religion?