JW's Preach A Different Gospel

[Katzpur]

There is no apostolic succession. That idea was made up by the catholic clergy. It has no basis in the christian scriptures.

I totally, totally, totally disagree. Once the foundation of Christ's Church was built -- on prophets and apostles-- it had to be maintained. After Judas' suicide, Matthias was chosen to take his place. Paul was later called as an apostle, as was Barnabas, and James (Jesus' brother) is also mentioned as being as apostle. Clearly, the organization of Christ's Church was intended to include the offices of prophets and apostles. The original apostles realized this and each vacancy in the group was filled by a new individual.

So why would it not be important for them to continue to exist today? The apostles were the ones who, after Christ's ascent into Heaven, were given the responsibility for maintaining the purity of the doctrines He taught. As long as they were leading the Church, the people could look to them for the correct interpretation of doctrine and not be "carried about with every wind of doctrine." Look at the differences of opinion among the Christians who post here every day.

In Ephesians4:11-14, Paul states:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."

In other words, prophets and apostles were an essential part of the Church Jesus Christ established. They were its foundation. It wasn't just the words of the Apostles that would be needed until the Savior's return. It was individuals who held the same authority as the original twelve did and who functioned as they functioned in directing the affairs of the Church. Paul states that without this organizational structure, Christ’s followers would be like children, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who were crafty and who desired to deceive them. He also pointed out that this organizational structure was to remain in place until we all became united in our faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Do you really think we're there yet? It was precisely because the Apostles were all killed and that the leadership they provided ceased to exist. Look what the result is: 30,000+ different denominations of Christianity. Just imagine how different things might have been today if there had been twelve Apostles leading Christ’s Church from the very beginning. We could look to them to for guidance and direction, knowing that they were called by the real Head of the Church to lead it in His physical absence.

With all the JW's focus on interpreting every last letter of the Bible accurately, it just kills me how they completely blow off these verses! It's describing the apostasy that would result if this structure -- including Apostolic succession -- were to cease to exist.

 

[Yoshua]

No....JW's preach a different gospel to Christendom's interpretation of the NT...that would be because Christendom has never taught the truth about Jesus.



It's quite simple. The Bible itself gives the formula for calculating the time of Jesus' return as king of the kingdom.
It's the same method from the book of Daniel that the Jews used to calculate when Messiah was due to put in his first appearance.

Under the heading "Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses say that God’s Kingdom was established in 1914?"
We demonstrate how the calculation was made.

Dates — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

It is noteworthy that understanding when the "last days" began, does not allow us to figure out when the end will come. But world events indicate that it must be close. We continue to keep on the watch as Jesus told us. (Matt 24:42-44)

Daniel saw in vision, the future enthronement of Jehovah's king. (Dan 7:13, 14) This was unseen to human eyes and like all of Daniel's prophesies, pertained to "the time of the end" (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)

The fact that Jesus needed to give a "sign of his presence and of the conclusion of things" means that we can only identify his "presence" as king by the signs he told us to look for. (Matt 24:3-14) It was to begin with unprecedented war, followed by food shortages, pestilence, great earthquakes, an increase in lawlessness and the love of people growing cold. (Luke 21:7-28) A global preaching was also to take place during this time.

By the time people "see" Jesus "coming on the clouds with power and great glory" it will be too late for people to respond to the preaching that Jesus commanded for this time period.

This is why we see 1914 as the beginning of the time of the end. Christ is reigning as king of God's kingdom right now, but he has not made his appearance as judge yet. (2 Thess 1:6-9) Time is running out.

Hi Jay,

If there's a library of calculations or formulas that the Watchtower Governing Body can give to their members, the point is a lot prophecies does not came to pass. It is not valuable to laid down the calculations because there is no command for Christians to prophesy and prophesy. The Watchtower failure in their prophecies will be covered by just notifying the church/members--that it is alright because the light is getting brighter and brighter. Until now, the brightness is still stagnant, and when this will bring light to their members. In the first place, prophecies in the Old Testament came to pass, but for the Watchtower, they kept releasing prophecy which I find it not in accordance with the truth of the Word of God.

Take a review of the autobiography of your founder Charles Taze Russell. Most of their members did not oriented about the founder. They don't want to talk about it. But why? Most members are joining without knowing where JW originated and just blindly followed by feeding with the Watchtower's literature.

Thanks

 

[JayJayDee]

If there's a library of calculations or formulas that the Watchtower Governing Body can give to their members, the point is a lot prophecies does not came to pass.

We haven't actually made any prophesies. We have anticipated the fulfilment of one prophesy...the "presence" of our Lord Jesus Christ and all of the signs he gave that would indicate that he was ruling in his kingdom. These are found in Matt 24:3-14. We always think it strange when people make this accusation, that we have all these failed prophesies, but it isn't true....but that doesn't stop people from spreading the lies. All we have done is mistake the timing....no biggie..the apostles did that too. (Acts 1:6)

It is not valuable to laid down the calculations because there is no command for Christians to prophesy and prophesy.

We don't prophesy and prophesy.....we are told to "keep on the watch" for the approaching day of the Lord and that is what we have done. The parable of the ten virgins makes it clear that going to sleep spiritually will cause some to lose out on their invitation.

We would rather stand on the watchtower with our eyes peeled and sound the alarm prematurely, than go to sleep and miss it altogether.

The Watchtower failure in their prophecies will be covered by just notifying the church/members--that it is alright because the light is getting brighter and brighter. Until now, the brightness is still stagnant, and when this will bring light to their members. In the first place, prophecies in the Old Testament came to pass, but for the Watchtower, they kept releasing prophecy which I find it not in accordance with the truth of the Word of God.

You have be influenced by our detractors...its the same old story.....its the wrong story, but no one seems to notice or care that it isn't true.

If the brotherhood to which I belong wasn't progressive in its understanding, then it would be stagnant. Christendom has been put on notice as to her very unchristian adoption of pagan beliefs and practices, but she refuses to abandon them. She has not changed her conduct or her attitude for centuries. That is stagnation. The light on the path has never got brighter for her...she is still in the dark. That is why God tells his people to "get out of her" before God brings her just punishment upon her. (Rev 18:4, 5) The devil's empire of false worship is about to crumble.

Take a review of the autobiography of your founder Charles Taze Russell. Most of their members did not oriented about the founder. They don't want to talk about it. But why?

That would be because we do not look on Charles Russell as our "founder". He was one of a group of men, who just before the turn of the 20th century, got together to discuss their common concerns about the teachings of Christendom.
Charles Russell was a man, not a prophet. He was a gifted public speaker and debater, so he often spoke for the group publicly. His companions were not apostles, but also ordinary men who could see that something needed to be done about the state of affairs in God's worship. They had an overwhelming and collective desire to search the scriptures for answers....when they found them, they publicised them and from very small beginnings, a mighty nation grew. They discerned the master's instruction to "preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before the "end" of this present system of things. (Matt 24:14)

Since we believe that the "time of the end" began in 1914 according to the calculations provided by Daniel, it was reasonable to feel that these stirrings about the purity of God's worship would surface just before that time so that he would have a people prepared to do as they were instructed. Cleaning up their worship, they threw out all of Christendom's false doctrines and began the greatest preaching campaign the world has ever seen. We are known all over the world for our preaching. What is Christendom known for?

Daniel prophesied that this 'cleansing, whitening and refining' would take place among Jehovah's people at this time. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)
We see Charles Russell and his companions as the beginning of that cleansing and refining. Those who refused the cleansing, Daniel said, would understand nothing....they would be granted no insight. "Knowledge" he said would become abundant at this time. Who can deny this?

So we have good reason to believe that "the faithful and wise slave" that Jesus appointed, (Matt 24:45, 46) would be the ones obeying all of his commands....not just the ones they found convenient. We would especially see them preaching in all the earth as Jesus said they would. If you check out jw.org you will see the extent to which we are carrying out that command.

Most members are joining without knowing where JW originated and just blindly followed by feeding with the Watchtower's literature

No one is "blindly feeding" except those who spread the lies to downgrade JW's without ever knowing them. They want to believe the bad stuff that is said about us....God won't stop them. Look what they said about God's own son!

If you wanted someone to find out what sort of person you are, would ask them to you go to your enemies to gain their knowledge about you? Or would you like them to come to you personally and get a feel for the calibre of your character?
Trawling through the muck posted on the internet is what a lot of people like to do....let them. Jesus told us to expect the same kind of opposition that he got and for doing the same work. (John 15:18-21)

You can join them if you wish...you'll have lots of company. (Matt 7:13,:13, 14)

 

[Pegg]

Ah no. The idea was made up by the Jews. Jesus used that system. He waited until he was 30 years old as required. Then chose his talmidim. He was called rabbi/teacher because he used that system. So you really think that he abandoned the Jewish teaching method? Do you really think that the apostles would abandon the method Jesus taught them with? Nah. It's biblical.

I hate to remind you of this, but the entire Jewish religious system was put out of action when Jehovah allowed the temple to be destroyed.

That entire method was abandoned. There was no more earthly priesthood because the priesthood, headed by Christ was to reside in heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[Pegg]

I totally, totally, totally disagree. Once the foundation of Christ's Church was built -- on prophets and apostles-- it had to be maintained. After Judas' suicide, Matthias was chosen to take his place. Paul was later called as an apostle, as was Barnabas, and James (Jesus' brother) is also mentioned as being as apostle. Clearly, the organization of Christ's Church was intended to include the offices of prophets and apostles. The original apostles realized this and each vacancy in the group was filled by a new individual.

its very strange that the christian scriptures only record the appointment of Mattias to replace Judas. Thereafter, no more appointments are made or mentioned in the christian scriptures.

So why would it not be important for them to continue to exist today? The apostles were the ones who, after Christ's ascent into Heaven, were given the responsibility for maintaining the purity of the doctrines He taught. As long as they were leading the Church, the people could look to them for the correct interpretation of doctrine and not be "carried about with every wind of doctrine." Look at the differences of opinion among the Christians who post here every day.

In Ephesians4:11-14, Paul states:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."

In other words, prophets and apostles were an essential part of the Church Jesus Christ established. They were its foundation. It wasn't just the words of the Apostles that would be needed until the Savior's return. It was individuals who held the same authority as the original twelve did and who functioned as they functioned in directing the affairs of the Church.

If there really were more prophets, then the Christian scriptures would not end with Revelation. They would be continuous and ongoing. Why has nothing more been added to the bible since the 1st century?

The way we see it is that the purpose of the Apostles was fulfilled in the first century. They were to lay down the basis of Jesus teachings and establish Christs church...and they did that quite successfully.

Unfortunately, some christians who devised this 'apostolic succession' fallacy began adding to the Apostles teachings.....this is how the 'apostasy' began to take hold. Who is going to challenge men who claim to be successors of the Apostles? No one. Thats why chrisitans started joining the armies and going on crusades....those apostolic successors over turned all of the Apostles teachings. they introduced the trinity and hellfire and purgatory and claimed Mary was the Mother of God and started taking money in exchange for a place in heaven and this list goes on and on.

If you really believe in an apostasy, from what do you think they apostatized??? Was it not from the teachings laid down by the 12 Apostles?

Paul states that without this organizational structure, Christ’s followers would be like children, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who were crafty and who desired to deceive them. He also pointed out that this organizational structure was to remain in place until we all became united in our faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Do you really think we're there yet? It was precisely because the Apostles were all killed and that the leadership they provided ceased to exist. Look what the result is: 30,000+ different denominations of Christianity. Just imagine how different things might have been today if there had been twelve Apostles leading Christ’s Church from the very beginning. We could look to them to for guidance and direction, knowing that they were called by the real Head of the Church to lead it in His physical absence.

With all the JW's focus on interpreting every last letter of the Bible accurately, it just kills me how they completely blow off these verses! It's describing the apostasy that would result if this structure -- including Apostolic succession -- were to cease to exist.

Katzpur, think about it, the arrangement put in place by the Apostles is what Christians should have continued to follow. Mormons do it...they appoint all their young men as elders. Where do they get the idea to do that from?
It comes from the Apostles:

Titus 1:4 to Titus, a genuine child according to the faith we share:
May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
5 I left you in Crete so that you would correct the things that were defective*and make appointments of elders in city after city, as I instructed you: 6 if there is any man free from accusation, a husband of one wife, having believing children who are not accused of debauchery* or rebelliousness.+ 7 For as God’s steward, an overseer must be free from accusation, ...
10 For there are many rebellious men, profitless talkers, and deceivers, especially those who adhere to the circumcision.+ 11 It is necessary to shut their mouths, because these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they should not for the sake of dishonest gain.​

Acts 20: 17 However, from Mi·leʹtus he sent word to Ephʹe·sus and called for the elders of the congregation. ... 28 Pay attention to yourselves+ and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers,+ to shepherd the congregation of God,+ which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.+29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you+and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.+​

The arrangement put in place by the Apostles was for the appointment of 'elders' (Christian men who are experienced and who meet spiritual qualifications)
Nowhere in the scriptures do we read that there ever was an apostolic succession, nor is there any names other then Mattias who were appointed as an apostle. And that was way back in 33 CE .... where are all names of the apostles who were appointed after that time? There is not one.
What we do find is the appointment of 'elders'
All christian men who qualify should be serving as elders in congregations. And they are to shepherd the congregation by taking care of its flock and continuing to teach what the Apostles had laid down.

The reason why we have so many different denominations is because of the fact that everyone thinks they are an apostle with the right to lay down their own teachings. Now many churches barely even use the bible...they teach their own ideas. Thats the apostasy.

 

[katiemygirl]

Well thats a shame because you are being gravely misled by apostates who actively seek to keep people away from Jehovah by slyly twisting what we say and do.

One thing ive come to realise too is that anyone who continues to believe in the trinity will never come to know Jehovah because he is a God who requires exclusive devotion....and you cant give that to him if you dividing your worship between 3 gods. You think you can but i assure you its impossible.
And that is why the majority of christians do not even know who Jehovah is and for that reason alone they will not find salvation.

Pegg, it is YOU yourself and other good JW's that come to my door who are the primary source which prove to me again and again that your religion is a false one. Your words contradict the Scriptures. It's that simple.

When you tell me things like Jesus is not your mediator, that He mediates only for the 144,000, can't you see how contradictory that is of God's word? How can you say in one breath that your sins are forgiven, and then in the next breath say that Jesus is not your mediator? Even the most Biblically uneducated person understands that it is the blood of Jesus that washes our sins away. It is the blood of Jesus that reconciles us back to God. It is His mediatorship that makes you clean before God. If Jesus is not your mediator, then your sins are not forgiven. YOU want me to believe that the mediatorship of Jesus extends to you through the Governing Body. Do you even realize how idolatrous that sounds?

Yes, your Watchtower Society literature is enough to convince any independent thinking person that it is promoting a false religion, but it is YOU and the other JW's who come to my door, who repeatedly shoot yourselves in the foot.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, it is YOU yourself and other good JW's that come to my door who are the primary source which prove to me again and again that your religion is a false one. Your words contradict the Scriptures. It's that simple.

When you tell me things like Jesus is not your mediator, that He mediates only for the 144,000, can't you see how contradictory that is of God's word?

Well yes, that is contradictory.

And we dont say he is not our mediator. He is the mediator of all mankind....who told you that we say he mediates only for the anointed?

Perhaps you misheard that Christ, along with the anointed, mediate on behalf of us all. They are in heaven as kings and priests judging the nations, what are they doing up there if they are not mediating?. So they are working along with Christ as mediators for us all.

 

[katiemygirl]

I hate to remind you of this, but the entire Jewish religious system was put out of action when Jehovah allowed the temple to be destroyed.

That entire method was abandoned. There was no more earthly priesthood because the priesthood, headed by Christ was to reside in heavenly Jerusalem.

Christ is residing in heaven. He is both high priest and King. He was given all authority and power to rule His kingdom by His Father when He ascended into heaven. He is seated at the right hand of God. He is ruling over His kingdom and will continue to rule His Kingdom until His last enemy, death, is destroyed.

ALL who obey the gospel of Jesus Christ are Christians, and ALL christians are priests.

Peter, speaking to ALL Christians, said,

"...You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5).

ALLChristians are of that holy priesthood and can offer spiritual sacrifices to God. ALL have the right to go directly to God through Jesus Christ, our High Priest (Heb. 4:14-16).

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light..." (1 Pet. 2:9).

Rev. 1:5-6 says, "To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever."

The New Testament repeatedly teaches that ALL Christians are priests. When one obeys the gospel of Christ, he is added to the body of Christ and is thereby part of God's holy priesthood. As priests, ALL Christians can offer up spiritual sacrifices and can approach the throne of God through the mediatorship of Jesus.

When YOU and other JW's tell me you are not priests, that only the literal 144,000 are the chosen priesthood, once again, you contradict the Scriptures, and shoot yourselves in the foot.

So you see Pegg, it's not the Watchtower literature that destroys your credibility so much as it is YOU yourselves, with your contradictory Biblical teachings that cause people like me to be so turned off by your false teaching.

 

[Pegg]

Christ is residing in heaven. He is both high priest and King. He was given all authority and power to rule His kingdom by His Father when He ascended into heaven. He is seated at the right hand of God. He is ruling over His kingdom and will continue to rule His Kingdom until His last enemy, death, is destroyed.

ALL who obey the gospel of Jesus Christ are Christians, and ALL christians are priests.

Peter, speaking to ALL Christians, said,

"...You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5).

ALLChristians are of that holy priesthood and can offer spiritual sacrifices to God. ALL have the right to go directly to God through Jesus Christ, our High Priest (Heb. 4:14-16).

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light..." (1 Pet. 2:9).

Rev. 1:5-6 says, "To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever."

The New Testament repeatedly teaches that ALL Christians are priests. When one obeys the gospel of Christ, he is added to the body of Christ and is thereby part of God's holy priesthood. As priests, ALL Christians can offer up spiritual sacrifices and can approach the throne of God through the mediatorship of Jesus.

When YOU and other JW's tell me you are not priests, that only the literal 144,000 are the chosen priesthood, once again, you contradict the Scriptures, and shoot yourselves in the foot.

So you see Pegg, it's not the Watchtower literature that destroys your credibility so much as it is YOU yourselves, with your contradictory Biblical teachings that cause people like me to be so turned off by your false teaching.

So what do you think Revelation 14:1 means then?

 

[katiemygirl]

Well yes, that is contradictory.

And we dont say he is not our mediator. He is the mediator of all mankind....who told you that we say he mediates only for the anointed?

Perhaps you misheard that Christ, along with the anointed, mediate on behalf of us all. They are in heaven as kings and priests judging the nations, what are they doing up there if they are not mediating?. So they are working along with Christ as mediators for us all.

Did you know that the Roman Catholics say a very similar thing? They claim Mary is co-mediator with Jesus.

Listen to yourself. You are saying that the 144,000 are co-mediators with Jesus.

You've just proven my point. The Scripture says there is ONE God and ONE mediator. You say there is 1 + 144,000 mediators.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

YOU contradict the Scripture, thereby losing all credibility.

You teach Jesus is mediator for the 144,000. THE GOVERNING BODY IS YOUR MEDIATOR. You elevate and make the GB equal to Jesus Christ.

Open your eyes Pegg!

 

[Pegg]

Did you know that the Roman Catholics say a very similar thing? They claim Mary is co-mediator with Jesus.

Listen to yourself. You are saying that the 144,000 are co-mediators with Jesus.

You've just proven my point. The Scripture says there is ONE God and ONE mediator. You say there is 1 + 144,000 mediators.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

YOU contradict the Scripture, thereby losing all credibility.

You teach Jesus is mediator for the 144,000. THE GOVERNING BODY IS YOUR MEDIATOR. You elevate and make the GB equal to Jesus Christ.

Open your eyes Pegg!

You are wrong. The WT does not teach that Jesus is mediator for the 144,000. That is incorrect. Anyone in heaven does not require a mediator between themselves and Jehovah...they will be in his very presence. If we are teaching that the 144,000 are in heaven with Christ, then why would they need a mediator? They wouldnt. This just shows that you have misread or misheard.

But i'd still like to hear what you have to say about Revelation 14:1.... who are they and why are they numbered so?​

 

[katiemygirl]

So what do you think Revelation 14:1 means then?

Like you and everyone else, I can only speculate when it comes to prophetic language.

If you're asking my personal opinion of who the 144,000 are, I think they may be all christians. But I cannot say that as a matter of fact because like everyone else, I don't really know. I can just make my best guess based on everything else I read in the Bible.

When I read Revelation, I look at the overall message the author was trying to get across, and for me that is be faithful because in the end, the victory belongs to our God, and if we are faithful unto death, we will receive our crown of life.

Unlike you, my doctrine is not built around Revelation or other prophetic writings. I don't focus on end times like you do. My teachings and focus are on the teachings of Jesus and His apostles in the NT.

 

[Pegg]

Like you and everyone else, I can only speculate when it comes to prophetic language.

If you're asking my personal opinion of who the 144,000 are, I think they may be all christians. But I cannot say that as a matter of fact because like everyone else, I don't really know. I can just make my best fuess based on everything else I tead in the Bible.

When I read Revelation, I look at the overall message the author was trying to get across, and for me that is be faithful because in the end, the victory belongs to our God, and if we are faithful unto death, we will receive our crown of life.

Unlike you, my doctrine is not built around Revelation or other prophetic writings. I don't focus on end times like you do. My teachings and focus are on the teachings of Jesus and His apostles in the NT.

Jesus taught us to focus on the end times, the apostles were keenly interested in the end times, Paul, John and Peter all foretold events of the end times.. Jesus said to keep awake and keep on the watch for it.

Matt 24:42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming

Mark 13:33 Keep looking, keep awake,+ for you do not know when the appointed time is

Luke 21:36 Keep awake,+ then, all the time making supplication+that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.”

Matt 24: 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence*+ and of the conclusion of the system of things?​

If you are not focusing your attention on the prophetic writings or revelation as Jesus did, then perhaps your gospel is not as closely aligned with Jesus as you seem to think.

The book of Revelation explains itself as to its overall message right at the outset:

Rev 1:1 A revelation* by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,+ to show his slaves+ the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John​

Are you really not interested in this?

 

[katiemygirl]

You are wrong. The WT does not teach that Jesus is mediator for the 144,000. That is incorrect. Anyone in heaven does not require a mediator between themselves and Jehovah...they will be in his very presence. If we are teaching that the 144,000 are in heaven with Christ, then why would they need a mediator? They wouldnt. This just shows that you have misread or misheard.

If I have misread, then you have some explaining to do because Watchtower repeatedly says Jesus is mediator only for the 144,000

"So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians."
Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) pp.10-11

"The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant."Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

The 2010 book God's Word For Us Through Jeremiah continues to present this teaching It explains that Jesus mediates for the new covenant, which is for spiritual Israel, whom the Watchtower teach include only the 144,000.

"... the new covenant is between Jehovah God and spiritual Israel, with Jesus as its Mediator." God's Word For Us Through Jeremiah p.173

 

[katiemygirl]

Jesus taught us to focus on the end times, the apostles were keenly interested in the end times, Paul, John and Peter all foretold events of the end times.. Jesus said to keep awake and keep on the watch for it.

Matt 24:42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming

Mark 13:33 Keep looking, keep awake,+ for you do not know when the appointed time is

Luke 21:36 Keep awake,+ then, all the time making supplication+that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.”

Matt 24: 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence*+ and of the conclusion of the system of things?​

If you are not focusing your attention on the prophetic writings or revelation as Jesus did, then perhaps your gospel is not as closely aligned with Jesus as you seem to think.

The book of Revelation explains itself as to its overall message right at the outset:

Rev 1:1 A revelation* by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,+ to show his slaves+ the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John​

Are you really not interested in this?

What is Jesus focusing on in the verses you posted? Isn't He saying BE READY?

Jesus' message is KEEP WATCH! Stay faithful!!

That's my focus. I don't worry about armageddon because I know I am a faithful follower of Christ. I know I am saved. I trust in His promises that I will live with Him forever.

My focus is on pleasing God living a good and being the best Christian I can be.

It seems your focus is on fear, where mine is on hope. Yours is doom. Mine is life eternal with my Lord.

 

[Wharton]

I hate to remind you of this, but the entire Jewish religious system was put out of action when Jehovah allowed the temple to be destroyed.

That entire method was abandoned. There was no more earthly priesthood because the priesthood, headed by Christ was to reside in heavenly Jerusalem.

Ah no. I hate to remind you of the FACT that the Levitical priesthood was put out of action when the Temple was destroyed. Jesus is not a Levitical priest. He is High Priest and King. No Levitical priest or Jewish King held both titles. Jesus is a High Priest according to the Order of who?

Jesus, his apostles and their successors are priests according to the Order of who? They offer bread and wine in the Jewish todah according to the Order of who?

This sacrifice is to go on forever so you need a priesthood according to the Order of who?

Melchizedek

 

[katiemygirl]

="Katzpur, post: 4362582, member: 2540"]Oh, katie, how I wish you were not so filled with hatred.

Don't you hate false teaching?

Please don't misrepresent Mormonism. I know you would like everyone to hate us as much as you do, but at least get your facts straight.

Do you understand the difference between hating the person and hating the sin?

Tell me. Do you hate the sin of adultery? I would suspect YES you do. Do you hate adulterers?

Your accusations are getting old and worn out. They don't work anymore. You'll need to find a new tactic to defend your false religion.

 

[Wharton]

Did you know that the Roman Catholics say a very similar thing? They claim Mary is co-mediator with Jesus.

Like most Protestants you kick Mary to the curb.

Remember, without her, you have no redemption. Humanity has to be involved in its redemption. Mary supplies the humanity of Jesus.

What would you call her then?

Give us your title for Mary.

Is she just a vessel to be used, abused and forgotten by God and humanity?

 

[Pegg]

If I have misread, then you have some explaining to do because Watchtower repeatedly says Jesus is mediator only for the 144,000

"So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians."
Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) pp.10-11

"The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant."Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

The 2010 book God's Word For Us Through Jeremiah continues to present this teaching It explains that Jesus mediates for the new covenant, which is for spiritual Israel, whom the Watchtower teach include only the 144,000.

"... the new covenant is between Jehovah God and spiritual Israel, with Jesus as its Mediator." God's Word For Us Through Jeremiah p.173

This is about the 'new covenant' ... not about Jesus serving on behalf of all mankind.

Its not saying that Jesus is not a mediator for all mankind, its specifically speaking of the 'New Covenant' which he instituted with his 11 faithful apostles on the night before he died:

Luke 22:20 Also, he did the same with the cup after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant+by virtue of my blood,+ which is to be poured out in your behalf.​

It is a covenant for a 'kingdom' and his chosen anointed ones will be 'kings and priests' in that kingdom: Luke 22: 29-30 “You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials,” he told them, “and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Hebrews 9:15 'That is why he is a mediator of a new covenant...​

While its true that the 'New Covenant' is between Jesus and his 144,000, it doesnt mean he is not mediating on behalf of all mankind. He is and his entire purpose was for the benefit of all mankind.

Matt 26:27 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you,+ 28 for this means my ‘blood+ of the covenant,’+ which is to be poured out in behalf of many+ for forgiveness of sins.​

 

[Pegg]

What is Jesus focusing on in the verses you posted? Isn't He saying BE READY?

Jesus' message is KEEP WATCH! Stay faithful!!

That's my focus. I don't worry about armageddon because I know I am a faithful follower of Christ. I know I am saved. I trust in His promises that I will live with Him forever.

My focus is on pleasing God living a good and being the best Christian I can be.

It seems your focus is on fear, where mine is on hope. Yours is doom. Mine is life eternal with my Lord.

What's fear got to do with it???

Armageddon is not a fearful thing. Luke 21:28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”

Why do you think Jehovahs people spend so much time telling others about it??? Its something to look forward to.