Well do You believe in God? If so, the New Testament has thousands of more manuscript support then any other document in ancient history. And we know we have what the original writers intended to make known by that manuscript support. And being translated from there original languages we have it in English. But if you don't believe in God, then no matter what evidences I provide it would never be good enough I'm sure.
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JW's Preach A Different Gospel
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Thank you very much for posting that very interesting debate. I guess it's up to each person viewing it to determine who won. I know who I think presented the more convincing argument according to scripture.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Wow....is there a vendetta going on here?
Pegg has done a sterling job in being so patient with you.Considering the origins of Christendom's teachings....I can only say...thank God that JW's preach a different gospel and another Jesus!...because the ones found in the churches are not the ones found in the Bible.
What gospel are these "millions and millions" preaching and to whom are they preaching it? Not one of them have ever come to me with the good news of God's kingdom...what churches are out preaching one united Christian message as a global brotherhood "in all the inhabited earth"?
(Matt 24:14) When I was a member of the church, no one was asked to preach because it was never said to be a requirement.....and the minister was too busy to do it himself. (Not too busy to play golf though)
As long as we paid our money each week, that was all that was required. If we missed a payment, they were at the door asking for it.
If someone was supposed to preach...it was the other fellow.
I think his name was Mr Nobody. All they seem to do is preach their sermons to the converted....is that what Jesus commanded? If I was lost and Christendom went 'searching' for me the way that they search for "worthy ones".....I would never be found at all unless I wandered into a church one day. (Matt 10:11-15) "Searching" implies that we actually have to get up off our backsides and take Christ's message out to the people. Since Jesus said this work was to be carried out right to the end of the present age, I don't see the churches carrying out their assignment...and never have. (Matt 28:19, 20)
Those who truly "love the Lord" are out "doing the will of the Father", not supporting the world of which Jesus said to be NO part. (John 15:18-21; 1 John 5:19)
Who are hated and persecuted like the first disciples, mostly by those who claim to worship the same God?
Why are "many" going to be rejected by Jesus when the judgment comes, but "few" are on the road to life? (Matt 7:13, 14, 21-23) Why is the right road "cramped and narrow" and why were Christians to be hated and persecuted for doing what Jesus did?
I think the answer is obvious...but that is just me.
McBell
Unbound
so in order to believe in god one must first believe in god?
Baladas
An Págánach
Wow....is there a vendetta going on here?
Considering the origins of Christendom's teachings....I can only say...thank God that JW's preach a different gospel and another Jesus!...because the ones found in the churches are not the ones found in the Bible.
What gospel are these "millions and millions" preaching and to whom are they preaching it? Not one of them have ever come to me with the good news of God's kingdom...what churches are out preaching one united Christian message as a global brotherhood "in all the inhabited earth"?
When I was a member of the church, no one was asked to preach because it was never said to be a requirement.....and the minister was too busy to do it himself. (Not too busy to play golf though)
As long as we paid our money each week, that was all that was required. If we missed a payment, they were at the door asking for it.
If someone was supposed to preach...it was the other fellow.
All they seem to do is preach their sermons to the converted....is that what Jesus commanded? If I was lost and Christendom went 'searching' for me the way that they search for "worthy ones".....I would never be found at all unless I wandered into a church one day. (Matt 10:11-15) "Searching" implies that we actually have to get up off our backsides and take Christ's message out to the people. Since Jesus said this work was to be carried out right to the end of the present age, I don't see the churches carrying out their assignment...and never have. (Matt 28:19, 20)
Those who truly "love the Lord" are out "doing the will of the Father", not supporting the world of which Jesus said to be NO part. (John 15:18-21; 1 John 5:19)
Who are hated and persecuted like the first disciples, mostly by those who claim to worship the same God?
Why are "many" going to be rejected by Jesus when the judgment comes, but "few" are on the road to life? (Matt 7:13, 14, 21-23) Why is the right road "cramped and narrow" and why were Christians to be hated and persecuted for doing what Jesus did?
I think the answer is obvious...but that is just me.
In defense of my former church in particular, I just felt the need to share that this was certainly not even close to my experience there.
We had regular outreach programs to the poor an homeless that included preaching. In addition to this, they have an outreach program for the youth in the area. All are welcome. They do preach unity in the church, and many disdain denominations.
At least a handful of people committed their lives to Christ each week.
I have never even heard of such an outrageous thing as a compulsory offering...the idea of that disgusts me.
May I ask what denomination you were a part of (no pressure at all)? It sounds like your church really sucked, and I am sorry to hear you had those experiences.
Mine was actually pretty fantastic, I simply don't believe in the message of Christianity anymore.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
may i ask if you still believe in God and if so, what is your take on God and his purpose and life etc?
Baladas
An Págánach
Sure thing.
No, I don't believe in any god as typically understood.
From the standpoint of any Christian, I am essentially an atheist or some form of pagan.
I tend to think of myself more as the later.
My views of divinity are primarily Panentheistic.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Can I ask you why you left them? Perhaps we have something in common?
I left the Anglican Church over 40 years ago. I have relatives and acquaintances who are still in the church. Not much has changed apparently. Same old beliefs and the same inept approach to preaching. Their outreach programs attempt to assist the poor but hand to mouth charity was never advocated by Jesus. It just doesn't work. As a Jew, the law provided for the poor by allowing them to glean in the fields where the outer perimeter was left unharvested so that the poor could work to gain their food.
Every outreach program that was put in place to help drug and alcohol addicted people was abused. Very few are helped to free themselves of their addictions and they will just continue to come for the free handouts. The people in the church who run the programs are becoming somewhat jaded because of the failure of their efforts to bring real change to people's lives.
The minister of the Anglican Church where I live at present has recently been appointed to a government position (as chaplain) where he will be well paid. He left his church without a minister and not a few were upset about it.
JW's do not run charity programs. Rather we help people on a personal level. We don't want "rice Christians"...those who come for the handouts and not for the spiritual instruction. All who are baptised as brothers and sisters in our congregations are under the same requirements. We know what God expects from us and we give our best to him as our circumstances allow. We don't expect handouts.
Paul's instruction at 2 Thessalonians 3:6-8, 10 gives us a standard...."Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you......For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat." (ESV)
Jesus also said "you received free, give free"....I don't see that in the churches.
I thought it was a bit much myself. The minister never bothered to call personally to see if he could be of any spiritual help to us as a family but always expected the envelope to be in the plate on Sunday.
The one thing that struck me about JW's is that no one is paid. The elders give of their time voluntarily to care for the needs of the congregation. There are no fees charged for weddings or funerals, and we do not have infant baptisms.
What did you find so difficult to accept? I never really found much of a message in church at all......nothing that made any sense anyway.
Only JW's gave me Bible based answers to all my questions. What do you believe about life and the future now?
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Maybe you didn't notice, but this thread is posted under Scriptural Debates. Most people who come here accept that God's word is infallible, including JW's. We may debate translations of various verses, and their meanings, but that's it.
You come with a different agenda. You don't believe the Scriptures are the word of God, therefore, there's no common ground. You probably don't believe in God either, which gives us even less common ground.
If you want to prove the Bible to be fallible, you'll need to start your own thread. I don't play that game.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
How old are you my friend? "Prove it" this is the real world, you want proof, study for yourself. JFish explained it very well, that's proof enough. Now it's time to prove to yourself.
I have many objections to the JW regime, however I think this verse in Galatians is written against circumcision. JW's do not preach circumcision. Then because they don't preach circumcision its not directly applicable, and you are just saying your understanding of the gospel is better than theirs. Really I think the main objections are that 1. JW's do not recognize other Christians and churches. 2. They appear to control membership in a top-down kind of way. 3. They have predictions that they say are from God but which have not come to pass. 4. Despite these things they persist in trying to get other Christians to leave other churches and join theirs. Overall the main objection is that its like an extremely isolated branch that is very different from most other branches, but this 'Other gospel' is really talking about circumcision not about variances in beliefs. Its about not keeping the Torah and not requiring strict discipleship as Jews do. To some degree its applicable to any church that attempts to corral people through defining appropriate beliefs, times and seasons, particular methods of instruction, make particular people more spiritual than others (priests for example) and so forth. Unfortunately Galations is itself sometimes hard to relate to some of Paul's other writings such as Romans, because its hard to follow and there could be other reasons.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I watched this entire debate. It was very good.
I was pleased to hear Stafford, the JW, admit two things.
1. Jesus is deity
2. He said he worships Jesus, though he qualified that by saying he worships Jesus, but not in the same sense he worships the one true God.
Had I been present, I would have asked him to define and describe specifically what worship he gives the one true God.
This is a good question for any JW.
How do you worship the one true God? Describe your worship.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
I would like for a JW to clarify this verse for me, please. The fellow I study with has said that, the great multitude referred to here as standing before the Throne and the Lamb doesn't mean they are in heaven. It simply means symbolically, that they can be on earth and still be before the Throne. Is this the true meaning of the verse? The "great multitude", or crowed isn't in heaven?
Rev 7:9-10 (ESVST) 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, " Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Rev 7:9-10 (ESVST) 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, " Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
I'm glad you saw and liked it
On a side note, Greg Stafford (the Jehovahs Witness in the debate) no longer associates himself with the Watchtower. He started his own church/religion but still holds some fallacies regarding not believing in the Trinity etc, but he did disagree with the Watchtower to leave.
For anyone else reading this post as well, In case you don't know him, he was a JW that defended many of the JW doctrine publicly. He did this mainly in the form of two books, JW's Defended and Three Dissertations on the Teachings of JW's. He also was involved in two debates with Christian Apologists Robert Bowman and James While in regards to the Trinity. In these debates he takes a different approach than what the JW's teach, he fully affirms Jesus as a god (but a lesser god than Jehovah), denies that Michael the Archangel is Christ, and is effectively a Henotheist. In christian apologetic circles he was well know as a JW apologist, infact THE JW apologist.
The split seems to be over the blood issue, as he does not agree with the society. This is from his website elihubooks.com ...
"The wrongs I speak of are not just “minor” misinterpretations of certain prophecies that can work themselves out over time. What I am referring to are serious misrepresentations of Jehovahs commands and of the teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the New Testament, commands and teachings that are fundamental to Christian faith. These errors are not just harmless preferences for social behavior, but they are often fatal positions that have no basis in Scripture and in some cases no basis even in science or in medicine, though they claim to be so based. When a group has some, even many things right but at the same time also has wrongs that it tolerates or refuses to correct in spite of evidence that is provided to it that reasonably shows certain teachings are wrong, and when those false teachings are hurting people’s faith, destroying families, and even causing loss of life, then Christians, Witnesses of Jehovah, have no business remaining part of that group unless it is to help correct such wrongs. And when it is clear that such wrongs are not or will not be corrected, then for the sake of Jehovah and Jesus Christ Christians must reject those who tolerate such things. That is why I am not a Trinitarian. That is why I reject Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. That is why I reject witchcraft and magic. That is why I do not worship Allah. That is why I will no longer associate myself with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. It is why I am a Christian Witness of Jehovah."
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1. Are Jesus and Michael the Archangel Really the Same Person?
One of the most peculiar of the WTS’s teachings is their assertion that Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel. If the JW has difficulty explaining any particular doctrine, it will be this one. Even JWs will admit that if one were to have walked up to any of the apostles or disciples of Christ and asked them who Jesus was, they would not have said, "Well, he’s Michael the Archangel!" Not only was the very idea was unheard of before Charles Taze Russell (the founder of the WTS), but the Bible explicitly rejects the possibility of it.
For example, the author of Hebrews states, "To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my son? . . . Let all the angels of God worship him. . . . Your throne, O God, stands firm forever. . . . O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands’ . . . to which of the angels has he ever said ‘Sit at my right hand . . . ’" (Heb. 1).
Beyond this, Jesus has the power to forgive sins and give eternal life, but no angel has this capacity.
2. Is the Holy Spirit a Force or God?
Since the WTS insists that the Trinity is unbiblical and false, they relegate the Holy Spirit to the role of God’s impersonal active force which compels believers to do his will. In fact, they compare the Holy Spirit (which they render as "holy spirit") to electricity.
The Bible begs to differ, though. There are numerous verses in the New Testament which clearly demonstrate both the personality and divinity of the Holy Spirit. For example, in Acts 13:2, the Holy Spirit says, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." In Acts 10:19-20, this "impersonal force" considers himself to be a person. John 16 supports this idea by referring to the Holy Spirit as a "he" 10 times in the same chapter. First Corinthians 12:11 states that the Holy Spirit "wills," which is an irrefutable attribute of personhood, as is the capacity to love we see demonstrated by the Spirit in Romans 15:30. Scripture also states that the Holy Spirit can: be lied to (Acts 5:3), speak (Acts 10:19-20), hear (John 16:13-15), know the future (Acts 21:11), testify (John 15:26), teach (John 14:26), reprove (John 16:8-11), pray and intercede (Rom. 8:26), guide (John 16:13), call (Acts 13:2), be grieved (Eph. 4:30), feel hurt (Is. 63:10), be outraged (Heb. 10:29), desire (Gal. 5:17) and be b.asphemed (Mark 3:29). Only a person is capable of these.
These examples demonstrate sufficiently that the Holy Spirit is a personal being, and so now one must demonstrate that he is God. Acts 5:1-4 teaches that a lie to the Holy Spirit is a lie to God himself. Isaiah 44:24 insists that God alone created the heavens and the earth, but Job 33:4 and Psalms 104:30 explains that the Holy Spirit created them. Only God is everlasting, and this is likewise an attribute Scripture gives the Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14). The Jews put Jehovah to the test (Ex. 17:2), and the Holy Spirit takes the words of God, and claims they "tested and tried me" (Heb. 3:9). Unless the Holy Spirit is God, then he is an impostor. Again, in Hebrews 10:16, he claims to have placed his law in man’s hearts, though this was God’s work in Jeremiah 31:33. There is but one Lord (Eph. 4:5), and one Creator (Mal. 2:10), yet both the Father and the Spirit claim they are him (Matt. 11:25 and 2 Cor. 3:17; 1 Cor. 8:6 and Ps. 104:30). Only the Catholic understanding of the Trinity reconciles these passages.
3. Is There a Bodily Resurrection of Christ?
According to the WTS, "The man Jesus is dead, forever dead . . . " (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 5, 454). "We deny that he was raised in the flesh, and challenge any statement to that effect as being unscriptural" (Studies, Vol. 7, 57).
However, according to Scripture, "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain, and you are still in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:17). Jesus makes clear, even before death, that it is his body that will be raised up. He promises to raise up the temple once it is destroyed. "He was speaking about the temple of his body" (John 2:21).
4. Is Heaven Just for the "Anointed Class"?
The WTS teaches that only the anointed 144,000 seen in Revelation 7 will enter heaven (the "anointed class"), while the remainder that are not annihilated (the "other sheep") will live forever on earth in paradise. However, the Bible poses some irreconcilable difficulties with this idea.
If Revelation 7 is to be taken literally, there would only be 144,000 Jewish male virgins taken from a square shaped earth that are now in heaven worshipping a sheep. This would mean that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Charles Taze Russell (not a Jew) could not be in heaven. Reading one number literally while taking the rest of a book symbolically is not sound exegesis. Beyond this, we see in Revelation 14 that the 144,000 stand before the 24 elders from Revelation 4:4.
This at least brings the grand total to 144,024 people. But, the Scriptures indicate that there are still more to come. Revelation 7:9 speaks of a countless multitude before the throne, which is in heaven (Rev. 14:2-3). Still in the book of Revelation, we read that all those with their name in the book of life are in heaven (Rev. 21:27), while all whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the pool of fire (Rev. 20:15). There is no third "earthly" class. Jesus reiterates this, and never speaks of two flocks. He has one bride, whose "reward is great in heaven" (Luke 6:23). Paul even exhorts the Christian community, calling them to remember, "As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens" (Phil. 3:20).
The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40).
Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.
One of the most peculiar of the WTS’s teachings is their assertion that Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel. If the JW has difficulty explaining any particular doctrine, it will be this one. Even JWs will admit that if one were to have walked up to any of the apostles or disciples of Christ and asked them who Jesus was, they would not have said, "Well, he’s Michael the Archangel!" Not only was the very idea was unheard of before Charles Taze Russell (the founder of the WTS), but the Bible explicitly rejects the possibility of it.
For example, the author of Hebrews states, "To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my son? . . . Let all the angels of God worship him. . . . Your throne, O God, stands firm forever. . . . O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands’ . . . to which of the angels has he ever said ‘Sit at my right hand . . . ’" (Heb. 1).
Beyond this, Jesus has the power to forgive sins and give eternal life, but no angel has this capacity.
2. Is the Holy Spirit a Force or God?
Since the WTS insists that the Trinity is unbiblical and false, they relegate the Holy Spirit to the role of God’s impersonal active force which compels believers to do his will. In fact, they compare the Holy Spirit (which they render as "holy spirit") to electricity.
The Bible begs to differ, though. There are numerous verses in the New Testament which clearly demonstrate both the personality and divinity of the Holy Spirit. For example, in Acts 13:2, the Holy Spirit says, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." In Acts 10:19-20, this "impersonal force" considers himself to be a person. John 16 supports this idea by referring to the Holy Spirit as a "he" 10 times in the same chapter. First Corinthians 12:11 states that the Holy Spirit "wills," which is an irrefutable attribute of personhood, as is the capacity to love we see demonstrated by the Spirit in Romans 15:30. Scripture also states that the Holy Spirit can: be lied to (Acts 5:3), speak (Acts 10:19-20), hear (John 16:13-15), know the future (Acts 21:11), testify (John 15:26), teach (John 14:26), reprove (John 16:8-11), pray and intercede (Rom. 8:26), guide (John 16:13), call (Acts 13:2), be grieved (Eph. 4:30), feel hurt (Is. 63:10), be outraged (Heb. 10:29), desire (Gal. 5:17) and be b.asphemed (Mark 3:29). Only a person is capable of these.
These examples demonstrate sufficiently that the Holy Spirit is a personal being, and so now one must demonstrate that he is God. Acts 5:1-4 teaches that a lie to the Holy Spirit is a lie to God himself. Isaiah 44:24 insists that God alone created the heavens and the earth, but Job 33:4 and Psalms 104:30 explains that the Holy Spirit created them. Only God is everlasting, and this is likewise an attribute Scripture gives the Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14). The Jews put Jehovah to the test (Ex. 17:2), and the Holy Spirit takes the words of God, and claims they "tested and tried me" (Heb. 3:9). Unless the Holy Spirit is God, then he is an impostor. Again, in Hebrews 10:16, he claims to have placed his law in man’s hearts, though this was God’s work in Jeremiah 31:33. There is but one Lord (Eph. 4:5), and one Creator (Mal. 2:10), yet both the Father and the Spirit claim they are him (Matt. 11:25 and 2 Cor. 3:17; 1 Cor. 8:6 and Ps. 104:30). Only the Catholic understanding of the Trinity reconciles these passages.
3. Is There a Bodily Resurrection of Christ?
According to the WTS, "The man Jesus is dead, forever dead . . . " (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 5, 454). "We deny that he was raised in the flesh, and challenge any statement to that effect as being unscriptural" (Studies, Vol. 7, 57).
However, according to Scripture, "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain, and you are still in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:17). Jesus makes clear, even before death, that it is his body that will be raised up. He promises to raise up the temple once it is destroyed. "He was speaking about the temple of his body" (John 2:21).
4. Is Heaven Just for the "Anointed Class"?
The WTS teaches that only the anointed 144,000 seen in Revelation 7 will enter heaven (the "anointed class"), while the remainder that are not annihilated (the "other sheep") will live forever on earth in paradise. However, the Bible poses some irreconcilable difficulties with this idea.
If Revelation 7 is to be taken literally, there would only be 144,000 Jewish male virgins taken from a square shaped earth that are now in heaven worshipping a sheep. This would mean that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Charles Taze Russell (not a Jew) could not be in heaven. Reading one number literally while taking the rest of a book symbolically is not sound exegesis. Beyond this, we see in Revelation 14 that the 144,000 stand before the 24 elders from Revelation 4:4.
This at least brings the grand total to 144,024 people. But, the Scriptures indicate that there are still more to come. Revelation 7:9 speaks of a countless multitude before the throne, which is in heaven (Rev. 14:2-3). Still in the book of Revelation, we read that all those with their name in the book of life are in heaven (Rev. 21:27), while all whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the pool of fire (Rev. 20:15). There is no third "earthly" class. Jesus reiterates this, and never speaks of two flocks. He has one bride, whose "reward is great in heaven" (Luke 6:23). Paul even exhorts the Christian community, calling them to remember, "As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens" (Phil. 3:20).
The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40).
Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
It's not up to me to prove the Bible infallible, rather it would be up to you guys to prove it is the infallible word of a super-creator, whilst simultaneously refuting the thousands of other religions that have existed throughout human history.
You are the one making the absurd claim (that you posses the infallible words of a divine deity), ergo it is up to you to provide evidence. Just like I'd have to, if I were to claim the God of Aquitaine to be the true creator of the universe, and that I am his personal prophet. D'ya see where I'm coming from?
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
History is also filled with people talking about how Muhammad did plenty of miraculous things which (like Jesus) contradicts the natural sciences. Why aren't you worshipping Allah and praising his "final messenger"?
How many religions and belief systems do you think have existed throughout human history? All over the globe, spanning a great number of millennia, how many humans do you think invented and passed down mythological tales of deities with superhuman abilities, how many gods and goddesses have been dreamt up?
From what you've told me, your only "evidence" lies with the words of some individuals centuries ago, even though there has been no demonstration of these miracles in the present day, and that they have been refuted by modern science.
Are you sure you've got it right?
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
All I see is you trying to hijack this thread.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Have you looked at this scripture in context?
Revelation 7:1-4....."After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: (ESV)
This is "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16. spiritual Israel) not fleshly Israel. This "Israel" is made up of both Jewish and Gentile servants of Jehovah.
So the portion you quoted was "after this".....so there is another group seen by John in his vision. Angels are holding back destructive elements whilst the "sealing" of God's heavenly servants takes place. These are a finite number.
Then John sees another group, by contrast, they are an unnumbered "great multitude" who are seen standing before the throne, (in the sight of God) clothed in white robes (signifying spiritual cleanness in God's eyes) and with palm branches in their hands (indicating that they are in a peaceful condition) They are also attributing salvation to God and to the Lamb, so they are Christians.
Revelation 14 adds more information about the 144,000.
Revelation 14:1-5...."Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless." (ESV)
"Mount Zion" here is in heaven because the Lamb, Jesus Christ is there with them. Earthly Mount Zion was Jehovah's mountain where his worship was seated. These ones are "firstfruits" which John indicate is by "the first resurrection". (Rev 20:6)
Those who experience the "first resurrection" will join Jesus in heaven as "joint-heirs" in his kingdom. These ones have been "redeemed from the earth", so they are no longer here. If there is a "first" then others are to come.
Revelation 7:13-14...."Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
The "great multitude" John identifies as those who 'come out of the great tribulation', which occurs on earth. They are survivors, just like Noah was a survivor when the flood came and wiped out the wicked on earth at that time. Jesus used that situation as an illustration of what to expect as to people's response to the good news. (Matt 24:36-39) Peter also used this example as a "pattern" of what was to come. (2 Pet 2:5, 6)
So where are the great multitude going to live? Heaven or earth?
John answers.....
Revelation 21:1-5...."Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
A "new heaven and a new earth" is part of John's vision, which is mentioned in other parts of the Bible. (2 Pet 3:13 e.g.) The kingdom (New Jerusalem) is seen coming down out of heaven....extending their rulership over "man". Then all the benefits are mentioned. No more tears, mourning or death! "Making all things new" is something to look forward to.
Understanding that God always intended earth to be the permanent home for mankind, it makes perfect sense to choose earth's rulers from among mankind. All of those chosen to rule in the kingdom, including Jesus, have an intimate understanding of the human condition in ways that angels could not know. But because they are appointed as "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) they wil need subjects to rule and sinners for whom to provide their priestly duties.
Those who go to heaven leave behind their sinful flesh so there are no sinners in heaven. And Kings will not need to rule one another.
These two groups pictured in the Revelation are those who are saved....one group goes to heaven to become rulers...personally chosen and anointed by God....these will rule over the survivors of the end of the present system. Then the general resurrection of the dead will bring back those whom God will educate in his ways and become subjects of his kingdom. (John 5:28, 29)
Once you dispense with the idea that all Christians must of necessity go to heaven, you see what God had planned all along and how he accomplishes it....THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM! It is the mean by which God's will is "done on earth as it is in heaven". How the kingdom "comes" is by Jesus bringing in kingdom rule by force, defeating the enemy satan by throwing him and his hordes into a prison for the full term of the kingdom's rule. (Rev 20:1-3)
All wicked humanity will then be evicted, the same way the wicked were evicted in Noah's day (just not by a flood this time Gen 8:21, 22) The political nations will fall by the power of Earth's rightful king. (Dan 2:44)
I hope that was clear enough.
Jesus did not divide His flock. One Flock with One Shepherd.
The WTS teaches that only the anointed 144,000 seen in Revelation 7 will enter heaven (the "anointed class"), while the remainder that are not annihilated (the "other sheep") will live forever on earth in paradise. However, the Bible poses some irreconcilable difficulties with this idea.
If Revelation 7 is to be taken literally, there would only be 144,000 Jewish male virgins taken from a square shaped earth that are now in heaven worshipping a sheep. This would mean that Peter (not a virgin), and Charles Taze Russell (not a Jew) could not be in heaven. Reading one number literally while taking the rest of a book symbolically is not sound exegesis. Beyond this, we see in Revelation 14 that the 144,000 stand before the 24 elders from Revelation 4:4. This at least brings the grand total to 144,024 people. But, the Scriptures indicate that there are still more to come. Revelation 7:9 speaks of a countless multitude before the throne, which is in heaven (Rev. 14:2-3). Still in the book of Revelation, we read that all those with their name in the book of life are in heaven (Rev. 21:27), while all whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the pool of fire (Rev. 20:15). There is no third "earthly" class. Jesus reiterates this, and never speaks of two flocks. He has one bride, whose "reward is great in heaven" (Luke 6:23). Paul even exhorts the Christian community, calling them to remember, "As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens" (Phil. 3:20).
The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2.
But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.