JWs & The Bible

[nPeace]

That translation of Rev 1:1 is different to any other I have seen. Maybe the translators did not know the Greek.
Anyway that is beside the point. Yes Revelation is an apocalyptic book and so is presented in symbols.
It works out to about 1400 miles by 1400 by 1400. I don't know if it weighs anything. It is a heavenly city. Do you think the New Earth will be bigger or the same size?
The current earth is about 8000 miles in diameter so it would be a prominent feature on the earth, as it should be no doubt.
So it is a big city which comes down out of heaven and you deny the scripture because you think it is a big city.
I think the earth could cope. The article below says it may be a pyramid or cube but I have always seen it as a cube. The article also says the Holy of Holies in the temple was a cube. Interesting.
Size of New Jerusalem

Are you saying you read a Bible that says New Jerusalem comes on earth?
I have never read such a Bible. Not even KJV say that.

The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. I would say it is the heavenly Jerusalem which is coming down from heaven.

You say it is heavenly, but don't think it in in heaven? Well.
Heavenly Jerusalem is not New Jerusalem.
(Hebrews 12:22) . . .But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels
The sea is no more, and the city has twelve gates to keep the dogs from entering.

That God and the Lamb will be there and that the New Jerusalem will be God's dwelling place and He will be with His people is all there.
Rev 21:............3 “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people,................"
So this scripture is implying that God lived there in heaven and now it is down with His people, on earth.
The Scriptures say that the Lamb will be the lamp of the city and God will be the light. It sounds like the light of God is going to shine from the Lamb to me. If the 144000 are going to be with Jesus then they also will be there.

Wow. If I didn't know better, I would think you were actually playing around.
God will dwell in the bride of Christ!!!? Amazing.

The city belonging to heaven is the one that comes down from heaven, where God and the Lamb will be.

Do you really believe that? I'm starting to have doubts you are serious.

Yes God's Kingdom is ruling over all the earth because the Kingdom of the earth has become the Kingdom of our God. So God's Kingdom stretches over all the earth and further. (Rev 11:15) And God and Christ will rule forever.


Abraham will be in the heavenly city. Do you think that there will be more heavenly cities coming down and the one that the Bible says will come down does not come down. Hmmmm interesting.
Why do you deny that Abraham is going to be born again. Jesus said he would be in the Kingdom of God and Jesus said that if someone entered the KofG they would have to be born again.

Right, so since there are no scriptures even suggesting that Abraham was born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of the heavens. He would be blessed by it though.
There are no doors in heaven, and no ladders that give people access to bang on those doors, crying, 'Let me in.'
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are also illustrative, just as Elijah was. (Matthew 17:1-13)

Are you trying to say that you think Jesus is not Michael the Archangel?

I'm wondering what made you assume that.

Yes, so. Nobody is saying that there won't be princes, it is just the WT interpretation that is in question.
I presented a literal interpretation in my last post I think, of the 144000, which agrees a lot better than the JW interpretation and does not require any change to the gospel.

I think you said a lot, but nothing that I could see, agreed with scripture. It called for quite a lot of speculating, and adding.

 

[Brian2]

No scripture says all Christians have been brought from the earth, and Revelation 7 is another scripture that mentions the144,000 separate from an unnumbered group.

No scripture says that any Christian has been bRought from the earth. We all however have been bought, ransomed, redeemed by the blood/life of Jesus from the earth.

No scripture says we all belong to Christ. You speak as though you were there. You weren't, and Paul was not speaking to you. Where did you get that idea from?

Where did I get the idea that the New Testament scriptures are for Christians?
Wouldn't the real question be "Where did you get the idea that most of the New Testament is only for 144000 Christians?

Our? Oh boy.

2Cor 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

It is plainly about our body. Why do you mock?
If you mock because I said "our" instead of "about the body of the 144000" then I would have to say that the idea that most of the New Testament is about the 144000 is something that comes from your teachers and not from the Bible.

 

[Brian2]

In what you say, and what the scriptures say? Yes.

So you say that redemption from our bodies means the same as redemption of our bodies.

You are going outside of scriptures for your answers. I have no interest in what you speculate will happen or will be. I mention that quite often.

No I didn't. You are just avoiding an answer as per usual.

Really? So the US government includes the people of the United States of America, and their lands? Okay then. I did not know that.

No I am saying that the Kingdom includes the Government and the land.
The smaller (government) is in the bigger (Kingdom).

 

[Brian2]

So I think it's safe to say our conversation has reached its limit, and is going nowhere. Agreed?

What I have seen in this thread is how JWs run from questions about the Bible which they cannot answer.
How those questions are buried by ignoring them and how the word of the Governing Body of JWs is seen by JWs as on a par with the Bible even when it disagrees with the Bible and/or has no support in the Bible.

 

[nPeace]

What I have seen in this thread is how JWs run from questions about the Bible which they cannot answer.
How those questions are buried by ignoring them and how the word of the Governing Body of JWs is seen by JWs as on a par with the Bible even when it disagrees with the Bible and/or has no support in the Bible.

You are not saying that in honestly, because I refuse to repeat scriptures I have presented, which you take and add your version by speculating with a whole lot of maybes, and just becauses, and could bes.
What sense do you think it makes to argue endlessly over what one believes?
I believe in dealing with things we can establish scripturally, but I don't think you are interested in scripture, more than you are in your beliefs.

Take the simple truth, that no one prior to Jesus, was baptized in water, and holy spirit - born again.
No one prior to Jesus went to heaven, nor can do so, unless... born of water and spirit.
No one prior to Jesus did Jesus make an agreement with them to rule in his kingdom, and be with him. etc.

All you do is repeat "Abraham is said to be in the kingdom" and ignore the discrepancy, sticking to speculation.
I'm interested in discussing the scriptures. Not arguing against one's twisted logic, and reasoning.
That is a pointless exercise.
Why should I repeat what have been said already... more than once?

If you believe born of water and spirit does not mean baptized in water and annointed by holy spirit, don't play hide and seek. Tell me what you think it means. Show me the scriptural support, and let see if the scriptures agree.
Let's go somewhere.

 

[nPeace]

No scripture says that any Christian has been bRought from the earth. We all however have been bought, ransomed, redeemed by the blood/life of Jesus from the earth.

This is what I mean, by twisted reasoning.
It's what people do, when they start doing word gymnastics to try to support thier beliefs.
Bought, brought. It doesn't matter. it changes nothing. You hope it will, but it won't.
(Revelation 5:9, 10) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought / brought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(Revelation 14:1-5) 1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought / brought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought / brought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

What's the difference?
Are you going to claim that they are not brought from among mankind?
Are you going to claim that they are not brought from the earth?
Are you going to claim they are not brought as firstfruits to God, and the lamb?

What? Let's hear what your problem is.

Where did I get the idea that the New Testament scriptures are for Christians?
Wouldn't the real question be "Where did you get the idea that most of the New Testament is only for 144000 Christians?

Did I say the New Testament is only for the 144,000 Christians?
You would never hear me say that, but you can't show me where the words you are claiming applies to you, actually do.
That's because the annointed ones of God, is not you - nor includes you, and yes, the Bible says they are only 144,000. Not me. The Bible. They are the Church - the saints - the holy ones - the brothers of Christ - heirs to the kingdom - the seed of Abraham - the adopted sons of God - the born again Christians. Not you.

2Cor 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

It is plainly about our body. Why do you mock?
If you mock because I said "our" instead of "about the body of the 144000" then I would have to say that the idea that most of the New Testament is about the 144000 is something that comes from your teachers and not from the Bible.

Oh dear. Our and we is not you.
If I say, to my brothers, "Our..." Do I mean you?
If I say to my brothers, "We... " Do I mean you?
No.
When Paul said we, and our, he was not speaking to you. LOL.
I have to mock Brian. I do, because of the attitude you are showing here.

...and you cannot show me where they mean you, but I have shown you, they refer the little flock of annointed Christians, who are to rule in heaven - whose citizenship belong there.

So you say that redemption from our bodies means the same as redemption of our bodies.

This is another thing I am referring to. The need for mr to repeat things I said before... and why?
You just don't understand what you read Brian. Perhaps your beliefs are creating that problem.
the release from our bodies by ransom
release by ransom of the body of us
What's the difference?
There is no difference. You are twisting the text, based on what you believe - not scripture.
So, your beliefs are what is having conflict with the scriptures.

The scriptures are not saying redemption from our bodies.
The scriptures say, the release from our bodies by ransom / release by ransom of the body of us.
Or, to help you see your mistake - the release from our bodies ... by redemption / release ... by redemption ... of the body of us.
They are being released from the body, by means of the ransom - redemption.
Do you understand that Brian?

I would have excused you, based on the fact that sometimes it can be difficult understanding certain grammatical structure.
However, I have decided not to go gentle with you, because I realize this is due to your wanting to support your beliefs, and not letting the scriptures correct you.

No I didn't. You are just avoiding an answer as per usual.

Yes you did go outside scripture. If saying, Quote I don't know where [in scripture] but since He is in the Kingdom of God then that MUST happen some time (see John 3). Maybe when Jesus welcomes the righteous into the Kingdom of God at the judgement. Unquote. is not speculating, then I must not know what speculating is.
Perhaps help me out on this one then. If that is not speculating, what is it?
It not profitable to repeat oneself when the other person is going to somersault over what one says.

No I am saying that the Kingdom includes the Government and the land.
The smaller (government) is in the bigger (Kingdom).

Can you explain that please... in English. <joke>
Seriously though Brian. Do you mean like this? If not, please be clear, what you mean.

 

[Brian2]

From what you said I thought you had wound up the thread. It was great to have a break and I did not realise you had posted anything else. I did not receive emails about extra posts on this thread.

Take the simple truth, that no one prior to Jesus, was baptized in water, and holy spirit - born again.
No one prior to Jesus went to heaven, nor can do so, unless... born of water and spirit.
No one prior to Jesus did Jesus make an agreement with them to rule in his kingdom, and be with him. etc.

All you do is repeat "Abraham is said to be in the kingdom" and ignore the discrepancy, sticking to speculation.
I'm interested in discussing the scriptures. Not arguing against one's twisted logic, and reasoning.
That is a pointless exercise.
Why should I repeat what have been said already... more than once?

It is sounding as if you disagree with what Jesus said, that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are going to be in the Kingdom of God/heaven. (Luke 13:28, Matt 8:11)
Either that or you realise that the definition of the Kingdom of God that the JWs use is not the full use of the term in the scriptures.
Anyway I agree with what Jesus said even though Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had not been born of the Spirit while on earth.
My twisted logic tells me that they must get born of the Spirit when they are accepted into the Kingdom at the resurrection. This of course would apply to all those people of the nations who are taken into the Kingdom at the judgement.
Matt 25: 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

If you believe born of water and spirit does not mean baptized in water and annointed by holy spirit, don't play hide and seek. Tell me what you think it means. Show me the scriptural support, and let see if the scriptures agree.
Let's go somewhere.

Born of water could mean getting baptised in water or could mean being born naturally from one's mother. In the context of John 3 it probably means being born from your mother's womb.
Otherwise Jesus would have said that someone had to be born twice again, born of water and the Spirit.
Also we do see in Acts that people are born of the Spirit before being baptised.
Nevertheless it does not matter even if you insist that "born of water" means being baptised in water. If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the KofGod /KofHeaven and being baptised in water is essential then that could be arranged at the resurrection and judgement.
The thing is that they ARE going to be in the Kingdom of God/Heaven so whatever is necessary will happen.

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

As a point of interest what do the JWs say that being born of the Spirit means?

 

[Brian2]

This is what I mean, by twisted reasoning.
It's what people do, when they start doing word gymnastics to try to support thier beliefs.
Bought, brought. It doesn't matter. it changes nothing. You hope it will, but it won't.
(Revelation 5:9, 10) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought / brought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(Revelation 14:1-5) 1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought / brought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought / brought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

What's the difference?
Are you going to claim that they are not brought from among mankind?
Are you going to claim that they are not brought from the earth?
Are you going to claim they are not brought as firstfruits to God, and the lamb?

What? Let's hear what your problem is.

Brought and bought are 2 different words and mean completely different things. If someone is brought from the earth it means that they are taken out of the earth to be somewhere else.
If someone is bought from the earth it does not necessarily mean that.
I have been bought from the earth with the blood of Jesus but I am still on the earth. The 144000 also remain on the earth even though they are bought from the earth.
1 Peter 1:18-19
Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
1 Corinthians 6:20
For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

A couple of questions about Rev 5:9,10
Why has the NWT put "over the earth" when it disagrees with their basic list of preposition meanings at the start of the Kingdom Interlinear?
Why has the NWT but "as Kings" in the text when it is not there in the Greek?

Did I say the New Testament is only for the 144,000 Christians?
You would never hear me say that, but you can't show me where the words you are claiming applies to you, actually do.
That's because the annointed ones of God, is not you - nor includes you, and yes, the Bible says they are only 144,000. Not me. The Bible. They are the Church - the saints - the holy ones - the brothers of Christ - heirs to the kingdom - the seed of Abraham - the adopted sons of God - the born again Christians. Not you.

Enough games. I said that "Where did you get the idea that most of the New Testament is only for 144000 Christians?" Going by your definition of what the 144000 are-""They are the Church - the saints - the holy ones - the brothers of Christ - heirs to the kingdom - the seed of Abraham - the adopted sons of God - the born again Christians."" most of the New Testament applies to them only.
But of course since you have never shown me where the Bible tells us that one group of Christians has all those characteristics and another has not I have to say that the Bible does not say that at all. It is just the WT that says that and all those who believe whatever it says the Bible means.
I showed you a literal interpretation of the 144000 (literally 144000 Jews who come out of the great tribulation as the scriptures suggests happens) where none of the above characteristics apply to only the 144000.

Oh dear. Our and we is not you.
If I say, to my brothers, "Our..." Do I mean you?
If I say to my brothers, "We... " Do I mean you?
No.
When Paul said we, and our, he was not speaking to you. LOL.
I have to mock Brian. I do, because of the attitude you are showing here.

...and you cannot show me where they mean you, but I have shown you, they refer the little flock of annointed Christians, who are to rule in heaven - whose citizenship belong there.

No you have not shown me what you claim.
And really what you have done here is to not answer my original comment that 2Cor 5:1-5 is saying that our body is a tent that we live in.

This is another thing I am referring to. The need for mr to repeat things I said before... and why?
You just don't understand what you read Brian. Perhaps your beliefs are creating that problem.
the release from our bodies by ransom
release by ransom of the body of us
What's the difference?
There is no difference. You are twisting the text, based on what you believe - not scripture.
So, your beliefs are what is having conflict with the scriptures.

The scriptures are not saying redemption from our bodies.
The scriptures say, the release from our bodies by ransom / release by ransom of the body of us.
Or, to help you see your mistake - the release from our bodies ... by redemption / release ... by redemption ... of the body of us.
They are being released from the body, by means of the ransom - redemption.
Do you understand that Brian?

I would have excused you, based on the fact that sometimes it can be difficult understanding certain grammatical structure.
However, I have decided not to go gentle with you, because I realize this is due to your wanting to support your beliefs, and not letting the scriptures correct you.

Roams 8:10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

That shows the resurrection of the body.

Romans 8:19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

The creation is going to be released from it's bondage to decay.

Romans 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

A Christian's spirit is born again but the body waits for that, and it comes at the resurrection into a glorified and immortal body not subject to decay.
"Release by ransom" means redemption.
You have been blinded if you think that "redemption of our bodies" means the same as "redemption from our bodies".
Our bodies are part of the creation that is liberated from it's bondage to decay as Romans 8:21 tells us and as happened to Jesus when He was raised bodily as the gospels show.
Question, why does the Kingdom Interlinear Translation have "release by ransom of the body of us" on the Greek side and "release from our bodies by ransom" on the English side when it they mean the opposite to each other?

Yes you did go outside scripture

. If saying, Quote I don't know where [in scripture] but since He is in the Kingdom of God then that MUST happen some time (see John 3). Maybe when Jesus welcomes the righteous into the Kingdom of God at the judgement. Unquote. is not speculating, then I must not know what speculating is.
Perhaps help me out on this one then. If that is not speculating, what is it?
It not profitable to repeat oneself when the other person is going to somersault over what one says.

I already answered that and said that you and the WatchTower have denied the words of Jesus that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the Kingdom of God/Heaven (Matt 8:11, Luke 13:28) and that is the reason you cannot see my reasoning.

Can you explain that please... in English. <joke>
Seriously though Brian. Do you mean like this? If not, please be clear, what you mean.

Are you really saying that you cannot see that a Kingdom includes the land and the people of the Kingdom and the government that rules the Kingdom.
Maybe you cannot see that because every time you see "Kingdom" you think "government".
But I am using the usual definition of Kingdom and that does not mean just Government. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are going to be in it after all.

 

[John1.12]

Do they follow it?

For about a century, Jehovah's Witnesses were known as Bible students.
It was not a name they gave themselves, but as they were keen students of the Bible, the name was stuck on them. Though they called themselves Christians.
Over time, they accepted that they could be appropriately called Bible Students (students of the Bible).
A little over two decades after, in 1935, they came to be called Jehovah's Witnesses.

There were not only changes in name, but there were also many changes in what they taught. Even today, though the changes are very few in number, changes still occur.
Do changes however, disqualify Jehovah's Witnesses from being an instrument of God to declare his word / truth?

That will be the focus of this thread, as I seek to consider the question(s), of (1) whether or not changes in understanding disqualifies one as a servant of God. (2) Whether the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses have become more in line with the Bible, or have deviated away, and comparatively (3) Are the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses more in line, or less in line with scripture than other ['Christian'] religions?

This thread was influenced by a conversation @Brian2 and I are having, where he describes how he sees the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses.






I want to see the scriptural reasons for these and other assertions.
It is one thing to give an opinion on how we feel about something, but if our opinions do not have a scriptural basis... what of it.
For example, if I were to say, I don't think I should do xyz, but the scriptures say God's servants must do xyz, then I have no scriptural basis for why I should not do xyz, I am simply giving my opinion, and should declare happily that I do not fit the description of God's servant, nor qualify to be such. Isn't that true?

This thread was not opened to have people state their opinions, but it's a Bible based discussion on the aforementioned questions. Scriptural use is appreciated, when making assertions.
However, anyone is free to give their opinion, and base that opinion on scripture.

They don't believe Jesus was resurrected in the same physical body he died with . God apparently dissolved into gasses and was resurrected a 'Spirit creature ' Jesus ( Micheal ,to them, the angel ) is not divine ,but is rather 'a god ( henotheism ) the first thing created by Jehovah . This is just a few of their beliefs that don't line up with the bible. Oh ,and they have their own bible . The New world translation .

 

[nPeace]

From what you said I thought you had wound up the thread. It was great to have a break and I did not realise you had posted anything else. I did not receive emails about extra posts on this thread.

That happens. Happens to me sometimes, I don't get any notifications.

It is sounding as if you disagree with what Jesus said, that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are going to be in the Kingdom of God/heaven. (Luke 13:28, Matt 8:11)
Either that or you realise that the definition of the Kingdom of God that the JWs use is not the full use of the term in the scriptures.
Anyway I agree with what Jesus said even though Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had not been born of the Spirit while on earth.
My twisted logic tells me that they must get born of the Spirit when they are accepted into the Kingdom at the resurrection. This of course would apply to all those people of the nations who are taken into the Kingdom at the judgement.
Matt 25: 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Clearly, you did not understand Matthew 13:10-16.
Also, I don't expect you will ever answer to the question of people knocking on the door, and asking Jesus to let them in.
There is a reason you will not answer that.

Born of water could mean getting baptised in water or could mean being born naturally from one's mother. In the context of John 3 it probably means being born from your mother's womb.

Okay. That's it. We'll call it quits at this point.
I'm not sure I understand what you consider to be a Bible discussion.
Take care, and I want to take the time to say I appreciate that we were able to converse. I understand Brian2 quite well now.
I understood you before, but I have a much clearer picture now.
One thing that is abundantly clear to me, is that you don't take the Bible seriously.

I think I owe it to you, to answer your last question though.
*** g76 6/22 pp. 27-28 What Does It Mean to be “Born Again”? ***
Accordingly, ‘being born of water’ involves water baptism, but such baptism must be preceded by repentance and a turning around from a wrong course. This is one essential for membership in the kingdom of the heavens.
A person’s being “born from the spirit” points to yet another baptism. John the Baptist called attention to this, saying: “I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance; but the one coming after me [the Christ] is stronger than I am . . . That one will baptize you people with holy spirit.” - Matt. 3:11.
On the day of Pentecost of 33 C.E., some 120 baptized disciples of Jesus Christ experienced such a baptism with holy spirit.

Peace out.

 

[nPeace]

They don't believe Jesus was resurrected in the same physical body he died with . God apparently dissolved into gasses and was resurrected a 'Spirit creature ' Jesus ( Micheal ,to them, the angel ) is not divine ,but is rather 'a god ( henotheism ) the first thing created by Jehovah . This is just a few of their beliefs that don't line up with the bible. Oh ,and they have their own bible . The New world translation .

Thanks for bringing this over here. I was going to suggest it, so that we did not derail the other thread.
Good thinking.

God apparently dissolved into gasses and was resurrected a 'Spirit creature.
Are you saying that's what JWs believe, or what you believe?

 

[John1.12]

Thanks for bringing this over here. I was going to suggest it, so that we did not derail the other thread.
Good thinking.

God apparently dissolved into gasses and was resurrected a 'Spirit creature.
Are you saying that's what JWs believe, or what you believe?

its what they believe

 

[nPeace]

its what they believe

Perhaps you have spoken to someone who does not know what JWs believe, because there is no JWs that believes God died. Certainly, none of them believe that God dissolved into gasses.
Perhaps you need to verify your sources.

However, let's discuss the Bible.
(John 21:4-7) 4 However, just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. 5 Then Jesus said to them: “Children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered: “No!” 6 He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” So they cast it, but they were not able to haul it in because of the large number of fish. 7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Now Simon Peter, on hearing that it was the Lord, put on his outer garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea.

The Bible says, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
That's what the Bible says. So contrary to what you believe, Peter did not recognize Jesus.
They realized it was him, when the miracle they had seen before occurred. "So they cast it, but they were not able to haul it in because of the large number of fish".

So, the Bible shows without any doubt, Jesus could not be recognized in person. Even his own relatives, and close associates, did not recognize him.
The Bible also shows that what dies is not raise as the same body, but is given a new body by God.
Also, the Bible says that Jesus was raised spirit.
Is there another reason you believe Jesus was raised with the same body?

 

[John1.12]

Perhaps you have spoken to someone who does not know what JWs believe, because there is no JWs that believes God died. Certainly, none of them believe that God dissolved into gasses.
Perhaps you need to verify your sources.

However, let's discuss the Bible.
(John 21:4-7) 4 However, just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. 5 Then Jesus said to them: “Children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered: “No!” 6 He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” So they cast it, but they were not able to haul it in because of the large number of fish. 7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Now Simon Peter, on hearing that it was the Lord, put on his outer garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea.

The Bible says, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
That's what the Bible says. So contrary to what you believe, Peter did not recognize Jesus.
They realized it was him, when the miracle they had seen before occurred. "So they cast it, but they were not able to haul it in because of the large number of fish".

So, the Bible shows without any doubt, Jesus could not be recognized in person. Even his own relatives, and close associates, did not recognize him.
The Bible also shows that what dies is not raise as the same body, but is given a new body by God.
Also, the Bible says that Jesus was raised spirit.
Is there another reason you believe Jesus was raised with the same body?

They believe ' Jesus ' died ( stayed dead ) . And they do not believe Jesus is God. but a god

 

[John1.12]

Perhaps you have spoken to someone who does not know what JWs believe, because there is no JWs that believes God died. Certainly, none of them believe that God dissolved into gasses.
Perhaps you need to verify your sources.

However, let's discuss the Bible.
(John 21:4-7) 4 However, just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. 5 Then Jesus said to them: “Children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered: “No!” 6 He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” So they cast it, but they were not able to haul it in because of the large number of fish. 7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Now Simon Peter, on hearing that it was the Lord, put on his outer garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea.

The Bible says, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
That's what the Bible says. So contrary to what you believe, Peter did not recognize Jesus.
They realized it was him, when the miracle they had seen before occurred. "So they cast it, but they were not able to haul it in because of the large number of fish".

So, the Bible shows without any doubt, Jesus could not be recognized in person. Even his own relatives, and close associates, did not recognize him.
The Bible also shows that what dies is not raise as the same body, but is given a new body by God.
Also, the Bible says that Jesus was raised spirit.
Is there another reason you believe Jesus was raised with the same body?

So at no time after the resurrection and before the Ascension did anyone recognise Jesus ? Like not even when he was close up eating with them ? They seem to be addressing him as Jesus ,asking him questions ect ?Doesn't Mary speak to Jesus, knowing its Jesus ? and Thomas?

 

[nPeace]

They believe ' Jesus ' died ( stayed dead ) . And they do not believe Jesus is God. but a god

Yes, we do believe Jesus - the Word that came to earth, from heaven - is not God, almighty, but a divine being, a god.
The Bible say that he came to eath as a man in the flesh - human - for the purpose of dying in that body, as a ransom for the sins of mankind.
God raised up that one - resurrected him, and exalted him to a superior position, more than his companions - the angels.
So the Word - Jesus - did not remain dead. He was resurrected - raised up - brought to life again.
That's what the Bible says.

 

[John1.12]

Perhaps you have spoken to someone who does not know what JWs believe, because there is no JWs that believes God died. Certainly, none of them believe that God dissolved into gasses.
Perhaps you need to verify your sources.

However, let's discuss the Bible.
(John 21:4-7) 4 However, just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. 5 Then Jesus said to them: “Children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered: “No!” 6 He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” So they cast it, but they were not able to haul it in because of the large number of fish. 7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Now Simon Peter, on hearing that it was the Lord, put on his outer garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea.

The Bible says, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
That's what the Bible says. So contrary to what you believe, Peter did not recognize Jesus.
They realized it was him, when the miracle they had seen before occurred. "So they cast it, but they were not able to haul it in because of the large number of fish".

So, the Bible shows without any doubt, Jesus could not be recognized in person. Even his own relatives, and close associates, did not recognize him.
The Bible also shows that what dies is not raise as the same body, but is given a new body by God.
Also, the Bible says that Jesus was raised spirit.
Is there another reason you believe Jesus was raised with the same body?

“She supposing him to be the gardener” (vs. 15). This shows that the resurrection body is not like the body Jesus Christ exhibited “in glory” (2 Pet. 1:16–18; Matt. 17:1–4) when He appeared with Moses and Elijah. His new body is made up of supernatural (see Luke 24:39) “flesh and bones,” although it had no blood in it. He appears as a normal man; enough so that He could be mistaken for one, at least in the dim light of early morning. When Jesus tells the disciples “handle me, and see...it is I MYSELF” (Luke 24:39), it is a body that does not “outshine the sun” (Matt. 17:1–4; Acts 26:13). It is, according to all human anatomical qualifications, an ordinary human being—but it is not “ordinary.” 1. Normal human beings cannot pass through closed doors. 2. Normal human beings cannot appear and disappear in a matter of seconds (Luke 24). 3. Normal human beings do not “levitate” off the ground high enough to disappear into the stratosphere (Acts 1). 4. Normal human beings need Adamic BLOOD in them to keep them alive. 5. Normal human beings cannot tell commercial fishermen where to throw a net after they have been fishing twelve hours and have caught nothing (John 21).
Your mistaking this for your doctrines.

 

[nPeace]

So at no time after the resurrection and before the Ascension did anyone recognise Jesus ? Like not even when he was close up eating with them ? They seem to be addressing him as Jesus ,asking him questions ect ?Doesn't Mary speak to Jesus, knowing its Jesus ? and Thomas?

They recognized him after the fact - by what he did, and said. Not by any physical features.
Isn't that what we see in scripture?

When you read all the accounts, that's what we see - Luke 24:13-43 ; J[URL='https://www.religiousforums.com/bible/john/20:14-20/']ohn 20:14-20[/URL] ; John 21:1-8

 

[John1.12]

They recognized him after the fact - by what he did, and said. Not by any physical features.
Isn't that what we see in scripture?

When you read all the accounts, that's what we see - Luke 24:13-43 ; John 20:14-20 ; John 21:1-8

Jesus literally tells them its " himself "

 

[nPeace]

“She supposing him to be the gardener” (vs. 15). This shows that the resurrection body is not like the body Jesus Christ exhibited “in glory” (2 Pet. 1:16–18; Matt. 17:1–4) when He appeared with Moses and Elijah. His new body is made up of supernatural (see Luke 24:39) “flesh and bones,” although it had no blood in it. He appears as a normal man; enough so that He could be mistaken for one, at least in the dim light of early morning. When Jesus tells the disciples “handle me, and see...it is I MYSELF” (Luke 24:39), it is a body that does not “outshine the sun” (Matt. 17:1–4; Acts 26:13). It is, according to all human anatomical qualifications, an ordinary human being—but it is not “ordinary.” 1. Normal human beings cannot pass through closed doors. 2. Normal human beings cannot appear and disappear in a matter of seconds (Luke 24). 3. Normal human beings do not “levitate” off the ground high enough to disappear into the stratosphere (Acts 1). 4. Normal human beings need Adamic BLOOD in them to keep them alive. 5. Normal human beings cannot tell commercial fishermen where to throw a net after they have been fishing twelve hours and have caught nothing (John 21).
Your mistaking this for your doctrines.

Just like the angels.
Jacob wrestled with one.
Moses fed many.
Daniel three companions were protected in flames by one.

What body did angels apear with? Did they not eat and drink? Spirits materialize bodies. Jesus raised in spirit did the same.

What does the Bible say?
That's the important thing.
(1 Corinthians 15:36-38) 36 . . .What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body.