JWs & The Bible

[Brian2]

perhaps you are confusing some thing , the Old Testament saints as you call them . will be resurrected and will be living and it will be possible to visit with them . just because these one once had authority does not mean they will also have authority in the future kingdom rule

You said that you could not see where it says the New Jerusalem comes down to earth. I showed you. And God and the Lamb will be there. God has said that He has chosen Zion, Jerusalem to be the place where He will be forever, and I see no reason to think God was not speaking of the location in Israel.
I figured I would be able to visit the OT saints in eternity.
You are the one who wants to make Kingdom equivalent to Government. Abraham Isaac and Jacob etc being in the Kingdom seems to suggest that they will be in authority unless Kingdom is not used in the sense of "government" in the Bible or maybe if it is used in the sense of Government and the sense of Domain ruled over. But really I cannot see where it is used in the sense of Government.

 

[Brian2]

@Brian2 said
"The WT has to say that we have no spirit and someone goes out of existence when they die and God cannot go out of existence"

you should read the WT, you would know better

That was just a guess as to you the WT ended up with there being no spirit in man and why they ended up with humans going out of existence when they die. Those things are certainly not taught in the Bible.

 

[nPeace]

That does not speak about 2 classes of Christians. If you think so then please explain.

Brian. The scriptures explain. That's why I am using them.
I prefer to let the scriptures do the talking, while I keep quiet.

Are you saying you need people to tell you what is scripture?
In a case like that, you will continually be doing what you have been doing for the past... how long did you say you have been doing this... is it 40 years? - stating your beliefs as scripture.

Some people apparently need a walkthrough, so explanations are necessary, in such cases.
(Mark 6:52) . . .for they had not grasped the meaning of the loaves, but their hearts continued dull in understanding.
(Mark 8:17, 18) 17 Noting this, he said to them: “Why do you argue over your having no bread? Do you not yet perceive and understand? Are your hearts still dull in understanding? 18 ‘Though having eyes, do you not see; and though having ears, do you not hear?’ Do you not remember

Please note that Jesus drew attention to lack of understanding being the cause for the need for explaining.
I'll try to help you though.

(Genesis 22:18) And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”
(Galatians 3:16, 29) 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “and to your descendants,” in the sense of many. Rather, it says, “and to your offspring,” in the sense of one, who is Christ.
29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.

First. and foremost, and important to note... Abraham is not the offspring (seed). That's elementary.
So right away, we have two classes of righteous ones (we can't call Abraham a Christian, but without question, Abraham is a righteous man) - Abraham's offspring - one class; all the nations of the earth, which would including Abraham - another class. One plus one equals two.

So Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Ruth, Naomi, David, Johnathan, Abigale, Esther, Mordecai, Josiah, Hezekiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Jonah, Job, John the Baptizer... None of these are the offspring of Abraham.
They are of the second class of the righteous - all nations of the earth who will obtain a blessing for themselves, by means of the offspring - the first class.

Secondly... Before we get to that, let's make sure of where you are, as I don't want to lose you, or you to lose me.
Do you understand that partial explanation? Are there any, problems you are having with it? What exactly do you disagree with, and have a problem with?

 

[cataway]

You said that you could not see where it says the New Jerusalem comes down to earth. I showed you. And God and the Lamb will be there. God has said that He has chosen Zion, Jerusalem to be the place where He will be forever, and I see no reason to think God was not speaking of the location in Israel.
I figured I would be able to visit the OT saints in eternity.
You are the one who wants to make Kingdom equivalent to Government. Abraham Isaac and Jacob etc being in the Kingdom seems to suggest that they will be in authority unless Kingdom is not used in the sense of "government" in the Bible or maybe if it is used in the sense of Government and the sense of Domain ruled over. But really I cannot see where it is used in the sense of Government.

perhaps you have forgotten you are reading from the book Revelation . very little of it can or should be taken literally . its a book of signs symbolic language is used to describe things . New Jerusalem ,as a literal object does not come down nor does it come to one specific spot on earth . the whole earth is in it .

 

[cataway]

That was just a guess as to you the WT ended up with there being no spirit in man and why they ended up with humans going out of existence when they die. Those things are certainly not taught in the Bible.

Psalms 146
4'' His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.''
(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.''
the spirit of man and the spirit of animals can be likened to a flame of a candle . when the flame is snuffed out ,where does it go ?? nowhere ,its just gone. it is the same with the spirit

 

[Brian2]

Brian. The scriptures explain. That's why I am using them.
I prefer to let the scriptures do the talking, while I keep quiet.

Are you saying you need people to tell you what is scripture?
In a case like that, you will continually be doing what you have been doing for the past... how long did you say you have been doing this... is it 40 years? - stating your beliefs as scripture.

And here's me thinking I was the one giving the scriptures which show your beliefs to be wrong,,,,,,and explaining the scriptures you give and showing they do not mean what the GB tells you they mean.

Some people apparently need a walkthrough, so explanations are necessary, in such cases.
(Mark 6:52) . . .for they had not grasped the meaning of the loaves, but their hearts continued dull in understanding.
(Mark 8:17, 18) 17 Noting this, he said to them: “Why do you argue over your having no bread? Do you not yet perceive and understand? Are your hearts still dull in understanding? 18 ‘Though having eyes, do you not see; and though having ears, do you not hear?’ Do you not remember

Maybe you should just tell me about the scriptures I have given to you which you do not seem to want to touch.

Please note that Jesus drew attention to lack of understanding being the cause for the need for explaining.
I'll try to help you though.

(Genesis 22:18) And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”
(Galatians 3:16, 29) 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “and to your descendants,” in the sense of many. Rather, it says, “and to your offspring,” in the sense of one, who is Christ.
29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.

First. and foremost, and important to note... Abraham is not the offspring (seed). That's elementary.
So right away, we have two classes of righteous ones (we can't call Abraham a Christian, but without question, Abraham is a righteous man) - Abraham's offspring - one class; all the nations of the earth, which would including Abraham - another class. One plus one equals two.

So Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Ruth, Naomi, David, Johnathan, Abigale, Esther, Mordecai, Josiah, Hezekiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Jonah, Job, John the Baptizer... None of these are the offspring of Abraham.
They are of the second class of the righteous - all nations of the earth who will obtain a blessing for themselves, by means of the offspring - the first class.

Secondly... Before we get to that, let's make sure of where you are, as I don't want to lose you, or you to lose me.
Do you understand that partial explanation? Are there any, problems you are having with it? What exactly do you disagree with, and have a problem with?

Keep going I'll let you know when I have a big problem.

 

[nPeace]

And here's me thinking I was the one giving the scriptures which show your beliefs to be wrong,,,,,,and explaining the scriptures you give and showing they do not mean what the GB tells you they mean.

I find it amazing that after 40 years you have not come to realize how flawed your thinking is.

Keep going I'll let you know when I have a big problem.

Nope. Please tell me if you agree so far or disagree. No gymnastics are going to be exercised here. Time wasting is bad thing imo, as time is precious... to me, at least.
I don't know about you.

Besides, you are the person who said the very said scriptures do not show two classes, and asked me to explain. Now you are saying... What? Don't bother, you were wrong...Or I'll wait till I can inject some belief to throw things off the focus?

Do you agree with what has been explained so far - that there are two classes of righteous... The first class does not include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Ruth, Naomi, David, Johnathan, Abigale, Esther, Mordecai, Josiah, Hezekiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Jonah, Job, John the Baptizer... since none of these are the offspring of Abraham?

 

[Deeje]

And why is this not a symbolic number (144000)? Why is it not literally out of the tribes of Israel?

Sorry if this has been covered before but the answer is simple.....the literal nation of Israel is no longer connected to the God they purport to worship. Literal Israel was cast off as the serial covenant breakers that they always proved to be when they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Read Jesus words in Matthew 23:37-39....what did he tell them ? If they fail to 'bless the one who came in Jehovah's name' they would never see him again.....meaning that they would lose their lives with all the other opposers of God's Kingdom.

The apostle Paul identified another "Israel" and he was speaking about the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus Christ when he spoke of them as "The Israel of God". (Galatians 6:16) These were spiritual "Jews" as Paul described...(Romans 2:25-29) Some fleshly Jews make up spiritual Israel, but as a nation they failed to live up to their dedication to God, forcing him to choose a new nation to replace them. (Matt 21:33-44)
Matthew 21:43....
"This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits."
Could he have said anything clearer than that?

Why is the great crowd not a part of Israel if Christians are joined to Israel as part of Israel?
It is a theory and not something to build a theology on which changes the gospel message.

There are clearly two groups of Christians in Revelation 7.
Jesus' words to the Samaritan woman confirm that this Mt Zion is not an earthly geographical location.
"Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." (John 4:20)
The first group are seen on Mt Zion....not the literal mountain, but picturing the seat of God's worship in heaven. They are a finite group, specifically numbered. The Lamb is with them in this heavenly location.

The second group are a "great crowd which no man was able to number out of all nations, tribes, people and tongues" because they are an infinite group of undetermined number and not confined to any specific nation. But when asked who they were John was told that "these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation" which occurs on earth. (Matthew 24:21) They are the nucleus of the "new earth" which many of God's pre-Christian servants knew about and looked forward to. (2 Peter 3:13)

Both groups attribute their salvation to God and to the Lamb. But the first group it says in Revelation 14 are chosen as "firstfruits from among mankind" so as with all 'firsts'...others will follow. But these will not have heaven as their destination because the first group act as "kings and priests". (Revelation 20:6)

So who do they rule....and for whom do they act as priests? Kings do not rule one another, and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. If everyone goes to heaven, we would have 'all chiefs and no Indians'. (excuse the political incorrectness but I couldn't think of another way to say it) There are no sinners in heaven. Those chosen for that specific role are given new spiritual bodies in order for them to be sinless and to be able to exist in God's presence. But their rulership is for their earthly subjects as Revelation 21:2-4 tells us....

"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

"New Jerusalem", like Mt Zion is a heavenly location, not an earthly one. God does not need to dwell 'physically' with 'mankind' or it would kill them. No mortal earthling can survive that experience, (Exodus 33:20) so God's presence among his people will be like it was with original Israel...through his appointed earthly representatives.

Only when humankind have attained perfection, having shed their sinful state through the 1,000 year reign of Christ and his 144,000, will we then be able to deal with our God as Adam and Jesus did.....directly without the aid of a mediator.

FWIW...that is how we see the future....and who will be given rulership positions....and who won't. We don't mind what position we hold as long as we are there....we will love to serve our God wherever he wants us.

 

[metis]

The reign of Christ has been here for almost 2000 years when Jesus created his Kingdom on Earth that supplements the Kingdom in Heaven. Those whom are believers are already a part of that Kingdom as long as they stay the course.

BTW, most theologians that I have read believe that the "144,000" is more symbolic than literal. That number could not be written directly in Hebrew back then, thus is probably was twelve twelves thousands: completion [12] upon completion [12] in great numbers [1000].

 

[Bree]

Do changes however, disqualify Jehovah's Witnesses from being an instrument of God to declare his word / truth?

That will be the focus of this thread, as I seek to consider the question(s), of (1) whether or not changes in understanding disqualifies one as a servant of God. (2) Whether the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses have become more in line with the Bible, or have deviated away, and comparatively (3) Are the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses more in line, or less in line with scripture than other ['Christian'] religions?

.

I know this is an old thread, but as we JW's cant go out door to door due to Covid I feel starved for some good discussions and am happily responding to this older post.

First I want to say that when changes do occur in our teachings, the majority of JW's are happy about the change. Why? Because we see it as new revelation and we see it as Gods direction. New understanding of a particular prophecy or bible passage is like new light and in our view, its evidence of holy spirit guiding our Governing Body. They are just men, they are ordinary and none of them claim to be inspired prophets. They wait for instruction, they wait for direction and when it comes to them they are willing to adjust accordingly. This is why i trust them so much!! I cant overemphasize that the trust we put in our Governing Body is driven by their willingness to adjust their teachings as they do. So to the first question 'do changes disqualify jws from being an instrument'? The answer is DEFINTIELY NOT. There is scriptural precedent for 'changes' in thought and teaching.

When Jesus came, although he followed the jewish faith, he changed the status quo and exisiting teaching in some respects. The Apostle Paul was instructed by God to enter the home of a Gentile. The mingling of jews and gentiles into the worship of the One true God was something new. But we would never say that the Christians or Jesus were not following Gods direction by changing the existing belief system.


To the second question (2) Whether the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses have become more in line with the Bible,, I would say YES. Our teachings most certainly are more in line with the bible then when the 'bible students' first began. For example, they used to celebrate christmas. But as they looked closer at the influence of false religious ideas they chose to reject the christmas celebration.

The third question (3) Are the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses more in line, or less in line with scripture than other ['Christian'] religions? I would also say YES. There are many teachings in the bible that the current christian religions do not believe or teach and there are things they do teach which are not part of scripture. Ideas like hellfire and the dead living on as souls , some going to heaven other going to hell, some going to pergatory etc etc etc. These are not bible teachings but rather based on false religious ideas.

The scriptures reveal truth to those who want to know the truth. And to see that truth you must be guided by Jehovah God. If he allows you to see it, you will see it and if your motives are not right, you wont see it. The bible actually tells us that this will be the case for all mankind. Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children

 

[RabbiO]

@Bree -

This is an older thread? It’s only been a little more than a month since it was begun.... if I’m reading the date right.

 

[Bree]

@Bree -

This is an older thread? It’s only been a little more than a month since it was begun.... if I’m reading the date right.

Oh you're right, its not old. I was reading the first posts date 'joined' lol

 

[nPeace]

I know this is an old thread, but as we JW's cant go out door to door due to Covid I feel starved for some good discussions and am happily responding to this older post.

First I want to say that when changes do occur in our teachings, the majority of JW's are happy about the change. Why? Because we see it as new revelation and we see it as Gods direction. New understanding of a particular prophecy or bible passage is like new light and in our view, its evidence of holy spirit guiding our Governing Body. They are just men, they are ordinary and none of them claim to be inspired prophets. They wait for instruction, they wait for direction and when it comes to them they are willing to adjust accordingly. This is why i trust them so much!! I cant overemphasize that the trust we put in our Governing Body is driven by their willingness to adjust their teachings as they do. So to the first question 'do changes disqualify jws from being an instrument'? The answer is DEFINTIELY NOT. There is scriptural precedent for 'changes' in thought and teaching.

When Jesus came, although he followed the jewish faith, he changed the status quo and exisiting teaching in some respects. The Apostle Paul was instructed by God to enter the home of a Gentile. The mingling of jews and gentiles into the worship of the One true God was something new. But we would never say that the Christians or Jesus were not following Gods direction by changing the existing belief system.

To the second question (2) Whether the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses have become more in line with the Bible,, I would say YES. Our teachings most certainly are more in line with the bible then when the 'bible students' first began. For example, they used to celebrate christmas. But as they looked closer at the influence of false religious ideas they chose to reject the christmas celebration.

The third question (3) Are the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses more in line, or less in line with scripture than other ['Christian'] religions? I would also say YES. There are many teachings in the bible that the current christian religions do not believe or teach and there are things they do teach which are not part of scripture. Ideas like hellfire and the dead living on as souls , some going to heaven other going to hell, some going to pergatory etc etc etc. These are not bible teachings but rather based on false religious ideas.

The scriptures reveal truth to those who want to know the truth. And to see that truth you must be guided by Jehovah God. If he allows you to see it, you will see it and if your motives are not right, you wont see it. The bible actually tells us that this will be the case for all mankind. Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children

Thanks for sharing.

True, all of God's loyal servants are happy for any adjustments that open their understanding to the scriptures.

When we read the scriptures over and over again, even we find ourselves adjusting our understanding, in things we may have thought.

Jesus said,
(Matthew 13:11-15) 11 ...“To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him, and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it. 14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’

This is how the the Governing Body waits for revelation.
Jesus said that it is granted to his followers to understand.

It is granted. How refreshing those words must be, for the GB - the faithful and discrete slave. It must be to them, like refreshing waters, on a steaming hot day.

Whereas, to the others, it is not granted, but rather, "looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it."
You actually hit the nail on the head, when you said, "The scriptures reveal truth to those who want to know the truth. And to see that truth you must be guided by Jehovah God. If he allows you to see it, you will see it and if your motives are not right, you wont see it."

That's exactly what Jesus is saying... "they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them."

Because the GB - the faithful and discrete slave has, more is given to them, but to those that do not have, because their motives are not pure, and they don't see the Bible as God's word really, what they have is taken away from them, and so they continue to look in vain.
The scriptural truth are so refreshing.

Here is an example.
The GB at one time did not fully understand the truth regarding the great crowd at Revelation 7, since they felt that these, although a second class, were also a heavenly class, like the 144,000, but less righteous.

They had no problem understanding that the 144, 000 was a literal number, since John made that clear, by first mentioning a distinct number, and pointing out that they were taken from among mankind as firstfruits, and coming out of every tribe of the sons of Israel (Paul explained in his letter to the congregation of Rome, that this was not fleshly Israel). but then John turned his attention to "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues."

That is undeniable convincing confirmation that the 144,000 is literal, since both them and the great crowd come out of people of the earth, but one can be numbered, while the other cannot.
I can't imagine a teacher telling that to a classroom of students, and anyoe having doubt that you cannot number the ones sealed as slaves of God.
To me, it's a basic understanding.

So the GB, had the basics covered. Using scriptures such as Luke 12:32 - “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom. John 10:16) "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd., and others, they knew with certainty that there were two classes - One very small (described as a little flock) and another group described as large (a great multitude according to KJV).

No question there were two groups, but the adjustment in understanding came later, when they were able to connect other scriptures, all of which surrounded the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 and God's promise to Adraham, and the kingdom, then the pieces all fell into place, as they listened to what the spirit had to say, allowing God to guide them to understand what the scriptures were saying, and break away from the doctrines held by the "Babylonians" - that heaven is the destination of the righteous.

This understanding was one of the most joyous among God's people, when they were able to have a clear view of God's overall purpose.
In fact to this day, I think for many, it's still one of the most joyous revelations, because this is one of the most beautiful understandings, as it filled in the puzzle pieces at such a rate, the puzzle was just about finished.

So, while persons are still having problems understanding the literal from the figurative, because the GB, has gained - it was granted them to understand - they have no problem understanding what's literal, and what's figurative.
They know that ...

New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, is not saying it comes to earth. In fact, the scriptures nowhere says, it comes to earth.
I wonder why @Brian2 does not question that, but questions the number 144,000.

The Lake of fire is not literal. In fact the Bible says it isn't, and explains what it represents.
(Revelation 20:14) . . .This means the second death. . .

Therefore the torment of Satan in the Lake of Fire is not literal, but symbolic. (Revelation 20:10) . . .And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

There are a whole lot of other things the GB - faithful and discrete slave knows, because it is granted to them. They are the ones apointed to dispense spiritual truths.
(Matthew 24:45) . . .“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

They are the ones sent forth to preach.
(Romans 10:15) . . .How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

They are Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Brian2]

Brian, do you really think JWs are backward? Don't answer that.
JWs are made up of Scientists, Engineers, Physicians, Teachers, Lawyers, ... Are they any Greek scholars among them?
Wouldn't it seem odd to think that Frederick Franz was the only one who had a knowledge of Greek?

Why would that be odd.
JWs are made of of people who became believers, from ever walk of life, you can possibly think of, including police officers, and drug dealers.

I asked Clear for my own information and because the NWT is the only one I have seen that translates Romans 8:23 like that.
This is strange since with the NWT of Romans 8:23 it ends up contradicting Romans 8:10,11.
I have a Kingdom Interlinear Translation and at Romans 8:23 it has the Greek as saying "release by ransom of the body of us".
I look up the meaning of Tou and it is genitive.
Why do you Greek scholars disagree with all the other Greek scholars on this translation?

 

[Brian2]

It seems to me you are jumping around a bit much.
Can you stick to one thing without running all over the place?
You said, "Heavenly Jerusalem comes down to earth and God and the Lamb are there in Zion forever ruling over the Kingdom.".
You said.

I quoted...
(Hebrews 12:18-24) 18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

(Revelation 14:1-5) 1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

The Bible says, the saints - holy ones - are on heavenly Mount Zion. Not earthly.
The Bible says.... I am going with the Bible. The GB of JWs are going with the Bible.
You obviously want to stick with what you believe.

Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Why does the NWT say "to the spiritual lives" when the Greek says "to the spirits of the righteous"?
That looks like something to hide imo. Any idea what that might be hiding? Is it that humans have spirits which can be made perfect do you think?

and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,
Why do you think that this has to mean that they end up in heaven forever?
This is similar to you thinking that "bought from the earth" means that they are taken from the earth to be in heaven always. It surely means bought out of those who live on the earth. The rest have not been bought.
Enrolled in the heavens means that there is a book in heaven that we get enrolled in.

(Hebrews 11:10) For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
(Hebrews 12:22) But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels
(Hebrews 11:13-16) 13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who speak in such a way make it evident that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had kept remembering the place from which they had departed, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven. Therefore, God is not ashamed of them, to be called on as their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Since the scriptures are in harmony, there is no reason why we must conclude that the city God prepared beforehand, must be in heaven.
God prepared that city for the saints, and the saints are mentioned by Jesus and the apostles.
If you know of any mention of saints anywhere else, please quote the scripture(s).

The city Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc., would inhabit would belong to heaven - the heavenly kingdom.
(Daniel 7:27) “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

A kingdom is not without it's domain. Just as a kingdom is not without a king.
The king resides in his palace, and his officials and attendants dine with him. However, the subjects dwell in the cities.
Everyone does not dwell in the king's palace, nor his house.

Are you saying that God and the Lamb will not be dwelling in the heavenly Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven but will be in heaven? Have you any scriptures for that?
Regarding Daniel 7:27 it seems that to the saints of God will rule over the kingdoms under all the heavens. Nothing about one lot of Christians ruling over another lot of Christians there as far as I can see.

Jesus highlighted this in Luke 22.
(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Here, Jesus identified the saints.
Afterward, the apostles did the same...

Here, Brian. read and understand. Please. Take your time. stop clinging to beliefs that you want to believe for whatever reason.
(Hebrews 3:1-6) 1 Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge - Jesus. 2 He was faithful to the One who appointed him, just as Moses also was in all the house of that One. 3 For he is counted worthy of more glory than Moses, since the one who constructs a house has more honor than the house itself. 4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful as an attendant in all the house of that One as a testimony of the things that were to be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ was faithful as a son over God’s house. We are His house if, indeed, we hold on firmly to our freeness of speech and the hope of which we boast down to the end.

Does it say in those verses that there are 2 lots of Christians and one lot rule over another? I just don't see it, can you point it out to me?
"Partakers of the heavenly calling". Does that mean they are called to heaven or by heaven. Why do you think it is to heaven when the Bible shows God and the Lamb living, with His people, in the heavenly Jerusalem which comes down to earth?

So could you answer please. Scripturally please.
What house was Moses over, and what house is Christ over?
What is the foundation of the house, Christ is over, and when was that foundation laid?
What blocks (stones) were laid?

Christ is ruler of everything. He has been appointed firstborn, higher than the Kings of the earth (Ps 89:27).
He is the ruler of God's creation. (Rev 3:14)
He is the King of the Kingdom of God and as Heb 3 says He is not a servant in the house of God but is the Son over the house. He rules over all creation as the firstborn of creation (Col 1:15,16) and as the creator of all things.

A couple more questions... to be clear on the kingdom.
Could you answer this question, in no more than ten words, after which you can explain your answer with scripture?
I'll go first, so you understand what I am asking.
Question : What is God's kingdom?

Answer : JWs say God's kingdom is a type of Government (in short, a government)
View attachment 49967
View attachment 49968
Sorry, I have to split this up.[/QUOTE]

Good to see you found a definition that agrees with the WT definition. The question is, do you have scriptures that say that one group of Christians rules over another? Dan 7:27 seems to be about ruling over all the Kingdoms under the heavens and no mention of the 2 classes of Christians there. Actually if I am not mistaken all Christians are in the New Jerusalem with the Old Testament saints and God and the Lamb. They are all God's people and it says God is going to dwell there with them. That IS where God said He wanted to be forever, in Zion, and this of course is a heavenly Jerusalem, it is not built from dirt and wood etc.

 

[nPeace]

I asked Clear for my own information and because the NWT is the only one I have seen that translates Romans 8:23 like that.

Doesn't look different to me. How is it different?

This is strange since with the NWT of Romans 8:23 it ends up contradicting Romans 8:10,11.

It contradicts your beliefs about Romans 8:10, 11 It doesn't contradict Romans 8:10, 11.

I have a Kingdom Interlinear Translation and at Romans 8:23 it has the Greek as saying "release by ransom of the body of us".
I look up the meaning of Tou and it is genitive.
Why do you Greek scholars disagree with all the other Greek scholars on this translation?

You just don't understand what you read Brian. Perhaps your beliefs are creating that problem.
the release from our bodies by ransom
release by ransom of the body of us
What's the difference?

How thoroughly do you research these things?
Do you look to see what the Greek says, or do you look for what you can find to support your view?

Strong's Concordance
apolutrósis: a release effected by payment of ransom
Original Word: ἀπολύτρωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apolutrósis
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis)
Definition: a release effected by payment of ransom
Usage: release effected by payment of ransom; redemption, deliverance.

the release from our bodies (sóma: a body - σῶμα, ατος, τό) by ransom
This seem more spot on to me. You don't see that?

Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Why does the NWT say "to the spiritual lives" when the Greek says "to the spirits of the righteous"?

What is it Brian? What's the matter with you?

That looks like something to hide imo. Any idea what that might be hiding? Is it that humans have spirits which can be made perfect do you think?

Oh. Your beliefs. That's what's wrong.

and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,
Why do you think that this has to mean that they end up in heaven forever?
This is similar to you thinking that "bought from the earth" means that they are taken from the earth to be in heaven always. It surely means bought out of those who live on the earth. The rest have not been bought.
Enrolled in the heavens means that there is a book in heaven that we get enrolled in.

It's evident you are desperately grabbing at straws, and coming up with a handful of air - emptiness arguments Brian.

Are you saying that God and the Lamb will not be dwelling in the heavenly Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven but will be in heaven? Have you any scriptures for that?

I did not say anything of the sort.
Nowhere in scripture does it say heavenly Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.
If you believe that, then you provide the scripture that says that.

Regarding Daniel 7:27 it seems that to the saints of God will rule over the kingdoms under all the heavens. Nothing about one lot of Christians ruling over another lot of Christians there as far as I can see.

Seems?
There are no Christians in heaven and there will be none during the thousand years.
The 144,00 are neither Jew nor Gentile, Slave nor freeman, nor Christian... "You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)

...and yes, the Bible says one class rules another.
Are you prolonging this by asking me to repeat scriptures? Scriptures

Does it say in those verses that there are 2 lots of Christians and one lot rule over another? I just don't see it, can you point it out to me?

Okay right. You are out to waste my time.
You have not responded to a number of posts.
When you cover them, I'll respond, but right now, you are
just prolonging the inevitable, and making me repeat what I have already answered is wasting my time.

That's not being honest Brian.

 

[Brian2]

(Genesis 22:18) And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”
(Galatians 3:16, 29) 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “and to your descendants,” in the sense of many. Rather, it says, “and to your offspring,” in the sense of one, who is Christ.
29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.

First. and foremost, and important to note... Abraham is not the offspring (seed). That's elementary.
So right away, we have two classes of righteous ones (we can't call Abraham a Christian, but without question, Abraham is a righteous man) - Abraham's offspring - one class; all the nations of the earth, which would including Abraham - another class. One plus one equals two.

So Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Ruth, Naomi, David, Johnathan, Abigale, Esther, Mordecai, Josiah, Hezekiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Jonah, Job, John the Baptizer... None of these are the offspring of Abraham.
They are of the second class of the righteous - all nations of the earth who will obtain a blessing for themselves, by means of the offspring - the first class.

Secondly... Before we get to that, let's make sure of where you are, as I don't want to lose you, or you to lose me.
Do you understand that partial explanation? Are there any, problems you are having with it? What exactly do you disagree with, and have a problem with?

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are all in the Kingdom according to Luke 13:28. That would apply to all Christians also, since all have been born of God. All those ransomed by the life death Jesus have been bought by that blood and so belong to Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

perhaps you have forgotten you are reading from the book Revelation . very little of it can or should be taken literally . its a book of signs symbolic language is used to describe things . New Jerusalem ,as a literal object does not come down nor does it come to one specific spot on earth . the whole earth is in it .

Nevertheless that is what the scripture tells us and also tells us that God and the Lamb will be there in it and God will be with His people. So where are the 144000 going to be if Jesus is in the New Jerusalem?
It is a city on the earth according to the scriptures and people will come to it from other parts of the earth.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. 25 Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.…
Why say that this is symbolic but that the number 144,000 is not and the description of the 144,000 is symbolic again.
It sounds like a pick and choose thing and you are telling me I can't do that but only the Governing Body of the JWs can. Sounds like you think they have a good track record of telling JWs what the Bible means and you will believe them over that the scripture plainly tells us.
I can be nasty can't I. But really that is what it seems to me.

 

[Brian2]

Psalms 146
4'' His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.''

A better translation is "his plans perish". But even if we go unconscious, that does not say we go out of existence.

(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Our bodies were taken from the dust and will return there, but that scripture does not give the whole story, the full revelation of God which tells us that we have a spirit, the breathe of life, which is more than a life force because it knows our mind etc. (1Cor 2:11) and that that spirit goes to God. Even Ps 146:4 mentions our spirit which goes out of us to God.

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.''

The same answer can be said for those 2 as for the previous ones.

the spirit of man and the spirit of animals can be likened to a flame of a candle . when the flame is snuffed out ,where does it go ?? nowhere ,its just gone. it is the same with the spirit

You can liken it to that if you believe the Governing Body of JWs but I prefer to believe what the Bible tells us about our spirit as I said above (1Cor 2:11) and say that this spirit is what stays alive when the body dies and is the soul which is not killed at the death of the body. (Matt 10:28). In WT theology the soul dies at the death of the body but the GB has to twist the plain meaning of Matt 10:28 around so that the passage says something else.

 

[Brian2]

I find it amazing that after 40 years you have not come to realize how flawed your thinking is.


Nope. Please tell me if you agree so far or disagree. No gymnastics are going to be exercised here. Time wasting is bad thing imo, as time is precious... to me, at least.
I don't know about you.

Besides, you are the person who said the very said scriptures do not show two classes, and asked me to explain. Now you are saying... What? Don't bother, you were wrong...Or I'll wait till I can inject some belief to throw things off the focus?

Do you agree with what has been explained so far - that there are two classes of righteous... The first class does not include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Ruth, Naomi, David, Johnathan, Abigale, Esther, Mordecai, Josiah, Hezekiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Jonah, Job, John the Baptizer... since none of these are the offspring of Abraham?

Of course they are the offspring of Abraham biologically and because of their faith. Jesus is the promised seed but all of faith are also the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. Those in the OT times with faith also benefit from the promise to Abraham and benefit from the work of the one seed.

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.