JWs & The Bible

[Brian2]

Hi @brian and @nPeace

Does your present discussion center around whether the resurrection of Jesus (and the rest of mankind) is a physical resurrection or not?
Or do I misunderstand your discussion?

Clear
τωνενετζω

You know Greek it seems so could you help me with a Greek question about the translation of Romans 8:23?
This one is the New World Translation.
Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves+ while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons,+ the release from our bodies by ransom.
This one is the NIV and it seems all other translations I have seen except the NWT
Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
The context of Romans 8 includes verse 11
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of/through his Spirit who lives in you.

 

[nPeace]

This also is a secret held from the OT prophets till the time of Jesus.
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace, given me through the working of His power.…
Notice that there is one promise and it looks like all the gentiles will be fellow members of the body and fellow partakers of the promise, along with the Jews.



Since all who believe Jesus is the Christ are born of God (1John 5:1) all are anointed and in the Covenant and eat and drink with the OT saints in the New Jerusalem in the Kingdom.

Matt 8:11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”…



In context, this is about the Gentiles being the other sheep. It is a clutching at straws by the WT to say it refers to the non anointed class.



All Christians have the Spirit because they are born of God and so are "firstfruits". That may not say whom the 144000 are but does contradict what the Gov Body says about the 144000 in comparison to the other sheep whom they say have not the Spirit.
It is interesting that the great crowd are standing before the throne and before the Lamb. This could indicate that they are in heaven or that the throne is at that stage on the earth with God and the Lamb in the heavenly Jerusalem.



Since all Christians have the Spirit and are firstfruits the 144000 could be a symbolic number for all Christians. All Christians are justified through faith and seen as blameless in God's eyes and have been bought from the earth,,,,,,,,,,,,which does not mean that they are going to depart the earth and go to heaven, it means that of the people on earth they have been bought.



Exactly. You quote the verses that damn the WT theology and make no comment, as if it is obvious that they do not contradict the WT theology.

You asked me for scriptures showing two classes of Christians. Did you not?
I provided them, did I not? Do you deny them? Are the verses describing two classes or not?
Please answer the question.

You say "all Christians have the Spirit and are firstfruits the 144000", but you provide no scripture. Therefore you are stating a belief - yours.
I have repeatedly reminded you that we are not discussing your belief.
If you don't have scripture, then please consider that would be wasting my time. Please don't waste my time.
Do you have scripture that says "all Christians have the Spirit and are firstfruits the 144000"? Also, can you please tell me (explain) what are firstfruits.

You say "all Christians have been bought from the earth". Are you referring to Revelation 14:4 . . .These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. . .? Or are you referring to
Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”?
Or both?

Are you saying you believe that all people will be kings and priest on heavenly Mount Zion, ruling the earth?
Please provide scripture that support your claims.

 

[nPeace]

Have you read Rev 3:12 and Rev 21 where it says that New Jerusalem will come down to earth and God will dwell with His people,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,there on earth with the Lamb?

I read those verses, but nowhere did I read anything saying New Jerusalem will come down to earth.
Which translation are you using? Maybe it's a paraphrase. Can you quote it?

Does the GB deny those scriptures?

Again, JWs accept all scripture. I will not answer that question again. What is this, Kindergarten?

Have you read Matt 8:11 where it says that the OT saints will be in the Kingdom of Heaven? (compare with Luke 13:28 which uses the term Kingdom of God in the same context)
Does the GB deny those scriptures about the OT saints being in the Kingdom of Heaven or even being in the Kingdom?

(Matthew 8:11, 12) 11 But I tell you that many from east and west will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of the heavens; 12 whereas the sons of the Kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.”

(Luke 13:27-30) 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’ 28 There is where your weeping and the gnashing of your teeth will be, when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown outside. 29 Furthermore, people will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God. 30 And look! there are those last who will be first, and there are those first who will be last.”

As I said before, if you want to know why JWs do not believe what you do, go to the link I posted.
Did you read Luke 13:25-28?
It looks like some people are going to be in heaven knocking on doors, and there is also a dark place in heaven.
Do you believe that?
Did you also read Matthew 13:10-15. Therein lies the answer to your question.

 

[nPeace]

Well that agrees with what I said. "Covenant" is the wrong term if the WT wanted to convey the correct meaning. "Appoint" "grant" "gift" "bequeath" would all be better words to use. The Kingdom is given to Christians as it was given to Jesus.

Perhaps you didn't read this post.
Or perhaps you want to be the one to tell JWs what they must do?
So Strong's is wrong, according to you, correct?

 

[nPeace]

How does this negate Rev 3:12 and Rev 21 which shows God's dwelling place coming down out of heaven to earth and God dwelling with His people forever in the New Jerusalem from heaven?
Heb 13:14 For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.
The city is to come and those in the first century were looking for it. They are going to live there, the anointed.
Heb 11:16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
The faithful from the OT are going to also live in that city and they were longing for a heavenly country. Notice how the word "heavenly" is used. It does not mean "in heaven" but means "of heaven".
And since God is going to dwell in the New Jerusalem with the Lamb forever it looks as if heaven has come to earth.

It seems to me you are jumping around a bit much.
Can you stick to one thing without running all over the place?
You said, "Heavenly Jerusalem comes down to earth and God and the Lamb are there in Zion forever ruling over the Kingdom.".
You said.

I quoted...
(Hebrews 12:18-24) 18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

(Revelation 14:1-5) 1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

The Bible says, the saints - holy ones - are on heavenly Mount Zion. Not earthly.
The Bible says.... I am going with the Bible. The GB of JWs are going with the Bible.
You obviously want to stick with what you believe.

(Hebrews 11:10) For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
(Hebrews 12:22) But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels
(Hebrews 11:13-16) 13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who speak in such a way make it evident that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had kept remembering the place from which they had departed, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven. Therefore, God is not ashamed of them, to be called on as their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Since the scriptures are in harmony, there is no reason why we must conclude that the city God prepared beforehand, must be in heaven.
God prepared that city for the saints, and the saints are mentioned by Jesus and the apostles.
If you know of any mention of saints anywhere else, please quote the scripture(s).

The city Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc., would inhabit would belong to heaven - the heavenly kingdom.
(Daniel 7:27) “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

A kingdom is not without it's domain. Just as a kingdom is not without a king.
The king resides in his palace, and his officials and attendants dine with him. However, the subjects dwell in the cities.
Everone does not dwell in the king's palace, nor his house.

Jesus highlighted this in Luke 22.
(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Here, Jesus identified the saints.
Afterward, the apostles did the same...

Here, Brian. read and understand. Please. Take your time. stop clinging to beliefs that you want to believe for whatever reason.
(Hebrews 3:1-6) 1 Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge - Jesus. 2 He was faithful to the One who appointed him, just as Moses also was in all the house of that One. 3 For he is counted worthy of more glory than Moses, since the one who constructs a house has more honor than the house itself. 4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful as an attendant in all the house of that One as a testimony of the things that were to be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ was faithful as a son over God’s house. We are His house if, indeed, we hold on firmly to our freeness of speech and the hope of which we boast down to the end.

So could you answer please. Scripturally please.
What house was Moses over, and what house is Christ over?
What is the foundation of the house, Christ is over, and when was that foundation laid?
What blocks (stones) were laid?

A couple more questions... to be clear on the kingdom.
Could you answer this question, in no more than ten words, after which you can explain your answer with scripture?
I'll go first, so you understand what I am asking.
Question : What is God's kingdom?
Answer : JWs say God's kingdom is a type of Government (in short, a government)

Sorry, I have to split this up.

 

[nPeace]

Explanation : The Government is set up by God in heaven. Its king - appointed by God - is Christ Jesus, who has selected 144,000 from the earth, to rule with him. They rule the earth, with God's purpose in view, as promised to Abraham - the Abrahamic covenant.

Scriptures :
Set up by the God of heaven - Daniel 2:44.

Set up in heaven - 2 Timothy 4:18 (his heavenly Kingdom) ; Revelation 20:4 (I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge) ; Luke 22:30 (that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge ) ; Revelation 3:21 (To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne (@KenS this is the scripture I was looking for, where Jesus sits on his father's throne)) ; Matthew 19:28 (when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones) ; Luke 13:29 (people will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God) ; John 17:24 (Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me) ; 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (we the living ...will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord) ; John 14:3 (...I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be) ; Revelation 14:1 (. . .I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 . . .) ; Hebrews 12:22 (...you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels...) ; Psalm 2:6 (...“I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”) ; 2 Corinthians 5:1 - (...we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens)

Christ Jesus is the king - ruler - Plenty scriptures (No need to quote them)

There is a select few - Luke 12:32; Revelation 14:1, chosen to rule as kings with Christ the king and also serve as priests - Revelation 5:9, 10 (...with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth) ; Daniel 7:27 (...the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them) ; Luke 22:28-30 (...you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel) ; Revelation 1:6 (...he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father) ; Revelation 14:1, 4 (. . .I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000. . .These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb) ;

I am quite perplexed, as to why you want to take it upon yourself to decide whom God should allow, or choose to be joint heirs with Christ.
God told Abraham directly, the words at Genesis 22:18.
Did God say to Abraham, "You are the seed, Abraham." Did he? Then Abraham cannot be the seed, or offspring. God chose the seed, not Brian.
So take note...

These kings rule the earth with Jesus Christ the king. They make up the seed of promise, that would bless the earth - Genesis 49:10 (The scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong) ; Genesis 22:18 (And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice) ; Galatians 3:16, 29 (Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “and to your descendants,” in the sense of many. Rather, it says, “and to your offspring,” in the sense of one, who is Christ....if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.) ; Romans 8:17 (If, then, we are children, we are also heirs - heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ) ; Revelation 5:10 (...you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth) ; Revelation 21:1-4 (I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth ... I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind...) ;

The seed, or offspring is Jesus Christ, and the saints, or holy ones - the ones Jesus chose to be joint heirs with him... starting from when. Not the choosing of the twelve. Judas was dismissed. Luke 22:28-30.

Jesus made that covenant after Judas left. He sealed it on the day of Pentecost 33 CE.
(2 Corinthians 1:22) . . .He has also put his seal on us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts. 2 Corinthians 5:5 ; Ephesians 1:13, 14

That sealing has been going on from that point forward.
A time will come when the final sealing takes place.
(Revelation 7:2-4) 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

If you have scripture that shows that anyone prior to the day of Pentecost 33 CE, were sealed by the holy spirit to be joint heirs with Christ Jesus, then please, let's see them.
Also, if you have scripture that says persons prior to Jesus were baptized in the name of Jesus - a requirement for having access to heavenly life, then please show those scriptures.
(John 3:5) Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

It seems strange to build a theology around theories about who the 144000 are, especially when that theology contradicts other plain things in the Bible.
1Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.
ALL Christians have been bought with a price since all Christians are born of God (1John 5:1)
That means that the WTs theory about who and what the 144000 are is completely wrong. It contradicts plain scriptures. In one sweep of it's brush it negates all those plain scriptures in favour of it's own theories,,,,,,,,,,,it says, "Oh those scriptures don't apply to you other sheep". And the worst part is that you believe them instead of believing the scriptures.

(1 John 5:1) . . .Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one.
So based on your argument here, everyone - not just Christian, because the verse did not say Christian. Where did you read Christian? Everyone - Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Satanist.... all they have to do is believe that Jesus is the Christ, and they are born from God... Is that right. That's what you believe?

Here's what the scriptures say.
(John 3:3) In response Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
(1 Peter 1:3) Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(1 Peter 1:23) For you have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible seed, through the word of the living and enduring God.
(1 John 3:9) Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.

Read your Bible Brian, but don't just read it. Ask for understanding, and listen to what the spirit has to say. Accept the guidance God gives through the faithful and discrete slave whom Jesus appointed. Do so humbly, and with an honest heart, and you would believe different to what you believe at present.

 

[nPeace]

I have been presenting verses that the WT does not teach and those verses are support that they do not teach those things.


I can see that some Bible verses are figurative. I can also see that the ones I give are not.
God is so big that the whole universe cannot house Him and the WT says NO.

Please reference the WT that says NO.

We will see Jesus when He returns, and the WT says NO.
Luke 13:35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Matt 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
The scriptures even say that people will see God.
Psalm 17:15 As for me, I will behold Your face in righteousness; when I awake, I will be satisfied in Your presence.
Job 19:26 Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. 27 I will see Him for myself; my eyes will behold Him, and not as a stranger. How my heart yearns within me!

Well you just admitted that some are figurative. So fortunately for us, you don't have the authority to decide for anyone but yourself, what's figurative or not.

I can see why the WT does not want all to see Jesus, it contradicts other doctrines they have (invisibility of Jesus and being in heaven) I guess the WT wants to contradict the scriptures about God being everywhere because they want God in heaven only and if He was everywhere that probably means that God is His Spirit.
And of course the scriptures do teach that the Spirit is the Lord. ( 2Cor 3:17 ).

You say that God cannot come and dwell bodily on the earth but the scriptures contradict that. They tell us that the fullness of deity dwells in Jesus bodily and that the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father and that if we have seen Jesus we have seen the Father. God can dwell bodily on earth.
But it is an interesting topic, that of the presence of God. God is everywhere but His presence is more palpable in some places than others.
God's presence was in the one who accompanied Israel in the wilderness. Moses and the Israelite elders saw God and ate and drank,,,,,,,,,,but the scriptures say that no man has seen God at any time.
We certainly know that no man has seen the Father at any time but that does not mean they have not seen Yahweh. Jesus was given/inherited the name above all names after His sojourn on earth as a man. He took back His God identity. That could be the answer. The Son was seen by people in the OT and New Testament and so God was seen even though the Father, who is invisible and dwell in unapproachable light has not and cannot be seen.
Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us and the Father is in Jesus.
It is interesting that John 14:23 tells us that the Father and Son will come and make their home with us. This is when we receive the Holy Spirit (remember 2Cor 3:17 The Lord is that Spirit)

Well, I see you have your own doctrines, but what does your doctrines have to do with JWs and the Bible?

 

[Clear]

You know Greek it seems so could you help me with a Greek question about the translation of Romans 8:23?
This one is the New World Translation.
Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves+ while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons,+ the release from our bodies by ransom.
This one is the NIV and it seems all other translations I have seen except the NWT
Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
The context of Romans 8 includes verse 11
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of/through his Spirit who lives in you.

Hi @Brian2

I hope I can be of some use Brian2.

I have not been following the discussion so you will have to give me some context with whatever question you ask.
Are you and nPeace discussing the doctrine of resurrection, or errors in the NWT text (e.g. "namely the spirit", etc)), or whether Frederick Franz's (the NWT main creator historically) paraphrasing of "release from our bodies" vs the NIV "redemption of our bodies" is correct or some other question?
Can you give me your actual question and a bit of context to bring me up to speed on your discussion?

Clear
δρδρσεφιω

 

[nPeace]

You know Greek it seems so could you help me with a Greek question about the translation of Romans 8:23?
This one is the New World Translation.
Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves+ while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons,+ the release from our bodies by ransom.
This one is the NIV and it seems all other translations I have seen except the NWT
Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
The context of Romans 8 includes verse 11
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of/through his Spirit who lives in you.

Brian, do you really think JWs are backward? Don't answer that.
JWs are made up of Scientists, Engineers, Physicians, Teachers, Lawyers, ... Are they any Greek scholars among them?
Wouldn't it seem odd to think that Frederick Franz was the only one who had a knowledge of Greek?

Why would that be odd.
JWs are made of of people who became believers, from ever walk of life, you can possibly think of, including police officers, and drug dealers.

 

[Clear]

Hi @nPeace (and @Brian2 )

nPeace said : "Wouldn't it seem odd to think that Frederick Franz was the only one who had a knowledge of Greek?"

It is interesting you brought this specific issue up.

IT IS ODD THAT FRANZ WAS THE ONLY ONE ON THE J.W. TRANSLATING COMMITTEE WITH ANY SIGNIFICANT LANGUAGE SKILLS
The fact that Frederick was the only one on the J.W. translating committee that (historically) had any significant language skill WAS ( to me), very odd.

Even Frederick himself had no prior training in Koine Greek (I think he had a couple of semesters of introductory non-koine - classical greek if memory is correct).
I simply don't think a couple of semesters of non koine greek was sufficient to assume one could create a bible without having many, many, many mistakes in it. This seems to be the case with his NWT.
I notice that when someone quotes the New World translation, his translation of the text is frequently different than the actual source text.
For example, Franz's error in Romans 8:23 "namely the spirit", etc.
This seems to be a series of contaminations of the text by doctrinal bias.
(Having said this, I think doctrinal bias in such translations is unavoidable)


SOME OF FRANZS' RENDERINGS ARE INSIGHTFUL
Having said that, I honestly like some of Franz's insights.
For example, his rendering of grace as 'undeserved kindness" is, I think, very insightful
While such things are insightful (and even helpful in creating a critical and thoughtful mindset in the mind of the reader), such things are not not translations, but paraphrases.


I THINK FRANZ WAS TRYING TO DO A GOOD THING IN CREATING HIS BIBLE
Also, Franz allows his own theology to contaminate the bible he created to such a degree on certain doctrines that he goes beyond paraphrase, into contamination of the text with doctrines that are not found in any source text. I do not attribute any evil motive to this contamination, as I said, doctrinal bias is unavoidable. I think he was trying to create a text to support his interpretations.



nPeace said : "JWs are made up of Scientists, Engineers, Physicians, Teachers, Lawyers, ... Are they any Greek scholars among them?

J.W. PEOPLE THAT I HAVE MET IN PERSON HAVE BEEN WONDERFUL AND KIND
I think your point that J.W.s are "regular people" is irrelevant to the text but my own impression is that the ones I have met and interacted with have been kind, patient and wonderful people. I would be very happy to have one of these J.W.s as my neighbor and friend.

I do not know much about the Jehovahs Witness religion since my interests do not lie in the relatively modern Christian Movements of the 1800s and beyond and in their interpretations of the early texts, but rather my interest lies in the earliest forms of Christian religion and it's interpretations and texts.

I think it would be difficult for a J.W. to be a historian that is a Koine greek scholar.

In any case, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and insightful and satisfying.


Clear
δρφιτζφυω

 

[nPeace]

Hi @Brian2


Brian2 said : "Well that agrees with what I said. "Covenant" is the wrong term if the WT wanted to convey the correct meaning. "Appoint" "grant" "gift" "bequeath" would all be better words to use. The Kingdom is given to Christians as it was given to Jesus."

This is an interesting line of thinking you brought up in this statement.
The word for "covenant" is mainly used as the term for a will (i.e. the will someone makes out regarding an inheritance given to another person(s).

I don't know the context of your comment above, or how it applies to your discussion with nPeace, but I think it is interesting how often you seem to make so many historical points that are so correct.
Kudos.



Clear
δρφιτωφυω

Are you taking his side because you have not looked at the other side, or because of bias against the other side.
I don't mean you are taking his side. I mean, giving him praise without knowing what's happening.
Brian received this...

He does not want to accept it. So hopefully he will accept your answer, and realize he is wrong.

 

[nPeace]

Hi @nPeace

I was not trying to "take his side" but merely wanted to point out that I liked Brian2s' historical point that the noun for New "Testament" in Greek (Καινή Διαθήκη) was used in reference to a Will (by which one bequeathed or disposed of or passed on property to others).

If YOU are saying that Διαθήκη specifically referred to a "will" rather than a "gift', then this point is correct. Whoever is claiming it is more often associated with a "will", is correct.

I thought @Brian2 was pointing out that the word was used to "bequeath" something, just as a "will" does.


In any case, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and insightful nPeace.


Clear
δρφιδρακω

I don't think @Brian2 understands that the Greek word applies to a passing on by a will. Hence he is arguing that it is wrong to use, make a covenant, when that is exactly what it means - to make an agreement, as Jesus was giving them an inheritance.

 

[Brian2]

Two classes - (Color code) 1 ; 2
(Genesis 22:18) And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’” See Galatians 3:16, 29

That does not speak about 2 classes of Christians. If you think so then please explain.

(Luke 12:32) “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples. How is that about 2 classes. Jesus disciples were one class then and are now.

(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Why is that about 2 classes of Christians?

(John 10:16) “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

In context the other sheep are the gentiles who would be brought in to join Israel as God's people. As you said to me, see Gal 3.

(Romans 8:19-23) 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.

The 2 classes spoken of are the creation and Christians. Why do you want that to be about 2 classes of Christians?
It is creation that is going to be redeemed when the bodies of the saints are redeemed as most translations of Romans 8:23 indicate. Our spirits are not part of that creation since they are from God. They have already been born again. The Spirit gives birth to spirit.
It is when our bodies are redeemed at the resurrection that we become full humans again and our bodies, part of the creation, become incorruptible and the rest of the creation also not long after.
Romans 8:11 tells us that our bodies will be given life just as Jesus was when resurrected,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just as His body was given life again.

(Revelation 7:3-9) 3 “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: .... 9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

And why is this not a symbolic number (144000)? Why is it not literally out of the tribes of Israel?
Why is the great crowd not a part of Israel if Christians are joined to Israel as part of Israel?
It is a theory and not something to build a theology on which changes the gospel message.

(Revelation 14:1-5) 1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

I hope you know that nobody is literally without blemish except that person be in Christ and be seen as the righteousness of God in Christ. God sees all Christians as having the righteousness of Christ.
Why are not all Christians seen as the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb? We all have the Spirit because everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ is born of God. (1John 5:1)

(Revelation 21:1-4) 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

We do know that God is not unjust and does not destroy the righteous with the wicked. (Gen 18:23) That would mean that the people of the nations also have righteous in them and they are classes by God as His people also. The nations, those whom God has had mercy on even though they were not Christians, are alive and living on the earth outside of New Jerusalem. The Christians, those with the Spirit, those who have accepted Jesus, are part of the New Jerusalem.
Is there something wrong with that idea, or does the WT idea have to be correct for some reason?

 

[Brian2]

God does not, and cannot dwell on earth "bodily", but he is near to us in spirit. The scriptures say this.
For example ...Jesus told his followers he would be with them, and God promised to be with individuals on earth, Yet both God and Jesus were in heaven supporting those servants.
Why, God said he would grasp his servants with his right hand.
(Isaiah 41:10) . . .Do not be afraid, for I am with you. Do not be anxious, for I am your God. I will fortify you, yes, I will help you, I will really hold on to you with my right hand of righteousness.’
(Isaiah 41:13) . . .For I, Jehovah your God, am grasping your right hand, The One saying to you, ‘Do not be afraid. I will help you.’

Is God's hand grasping you? Do you see it?

God holds my hand and in fact is living in me by and in His Spirit. (John 14:23)
God was in Jesus reconciling the world to Himself.(2Cor 5:19)
In Jesus dwells the the fullness of deity in bodily form. (Col 2:9)
Jesus is going to be in the New Jerusalem and so the Father is going to be there also in Him in bodily form.
Since you do not believe that the Spirit is the Lord (2Cor 3:17) but is just an active force I guess you and the WT have to not believe other scriptures also which show the same thing.
Sure the Father and Son are in heaven and the Holy Spirit also is there but God is everywhere and is so big that not even the universe or heaven can contain Him. (1Kings 8:27)
One doctrine overlaps with others. Once you get one wrong then you have to start denying what the Bible tells us about other doctrines and twist the meaning and in some cases even change the translation of the Bible to agree with your doctrines. This is the real JWs and the Bible story.

 

[Brian2]

No, I don't think so. I know from scripture, and I believe the scriptures are true.
Are angels spirit?
Yes. Angels are spirit. - Hebrews 1:7, 13
(Hebrews 1:7) Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits. . .
(Hebrews 1:13, 14) 13 But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? 14 Are they not all spirits for holy service, sent out to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?

Did Jesus preach to spirits in prison?
(1 Peter 3:19, 20) 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day. . .

What spirits are in prison?
(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Those angels are in prison and await judgement. They were not the ones preached to. Preaching implies a chance that they will change their ways. That is my opinion anyway.
I guess all this is related to the big question of who Jesus is. The WT has to say that we have no spirit and someone goes out of existence when they die and God cannot go out of existence. Those who deny who Jesus is have to alter other doctrines to fit that and as evidence for that. The trouble is that we have a spirit and our soul is not killed when our body is and we can see that in the Bible. Moses, who died came back and appeared to Jesus at the transfiguration. What came back if it was not Moses soul which survived his bodily death? No witchcraft there.

Are you saying the scriptures contradict themselves?
If not, your arguments are not meaningful. The scriptures contradict you, showing that it's your lack of understanding, or your desire to believe what you want.
So, which is it. Does the spirit go back to the true God who gives it, or not?

What does God do with the spirit that goes back to Him? Is it assimilated into God again as even more life force or is it something that God takes care of in an appropriate place till the resurrection? Does the Bible tell us that in Ecclesiastes? No. But we do find out in other places where the spirit goes,,,,,,,,,,,our soul, it goes to Sheol, Hades. But after the resurrection it seems that the souls of those in Christ go to be with Jesus (according to Paul) (Phil 1:20-23) which also speaks in language of staying in the body or departing the body. What departs the body? our earthly tent?
1Thess 4 tells of those in Christ being brought back to be resurrected.
Revelation speaks of souls being under the altar in heaven.

I am ignoring your beliefs.
I told you, telling me what you believe is not the same as providing scripture that says what is.
The fact that you spend so much time telling me what you believe is clear evidence that it is not scripture, but rather, what you think.
Scripture supports scripture, and gives the explanation.
Provide those... if you can.

I do provide scriptures but get no response to them mostly even though I try to tell you what those scriptures you give actually mean imo. It seems to be an exercise of avoiding the scriptures by you.

 

[cataway]

Those angels are in prison and await judgement. They were not the ones preached to. Preaching implies a chance that they will change their ways. That is my opinion anyway.
I guess all this is related to the big question of who Jesus is. The WT has to say that we have no spirit and someone goes out of existence when they die and God cannot go out of existence. Those who deny who Jesus is have to alter other doctrines to fit that and as evidence for that. The trouble is that we have a spirit and our soul is not killed when our body is and we can see that in the Bible. Moses, who died came back and appeared to Jesus at the transfiguration. What came back if it was not Moses soul which survived his bodily death? No witchcraft there.



What does God do with the spirit that goes back to Him? Is it assimilated into God again as even more life force or is it something that God takes care of in an appropriate place till the resurrection? Does the Bible tell us that in Ecclesiastes? No. But we do find out in other places where the spirit goes,,,,,,,,,,,our soul, it goes to Sheol, Hades. But after the resurrection it seems that the souls of those in Christ go to be with Jesus (according to Paul) (Phil 1:20-23) which also speaks in language of staying in the body or departing the body. What departs the body? our earthly tent?
1Thess 4 tells of those in Christ being brought back to be resurrected.
Revelation speaks of souls being under the altar in heaven.




I do provide scriptures but get no response to them mostly even though I try to tell you what those scriptures you give actually mean imo. It seems to be an exercise of avoiding the scriptures by you.

@Brian2 said
"The WT has to say that we have no spirit and someone goes out of existence when they die and God cannot go out of existence"

you should read the WT, you would know better

 

[Brian2]

You asked me for scriptures showing two classes of Christians. Did you not?
I provided them, did I not? Do you deny them? Are the verses describing two classes or not?
Please answer the question.

I answered them and there is nothing about 2 classes of Christians there.

You say "all Christians have the Spirit and are firstfruits the 144000", but you provide no scripture. Therefore you are stating a belief - yours.
I have repeatedly reminded you that we are not discussing your belief.
If you don't have scripture, then please consider that would be wasting my time. Please don't waste my time.
Do you have scripture that says "all Christians have the Spirit and are firstfruits the 144000"? Also, can you please tell me (explain) what are firstfruits.

I provided scriptures and you ignored them. (1John 5:1, John 14:23 for eg) It seems all you have to answer them is your belief in what the GB tells you. Those scriptures say "everyone" and "anyone" and the GB says "no those scriptures are about only the 144000" and you believe them instead of the scriptures.
There are many whom God will have mercy on apart from those who are in Christ, have the Holy Spirit. Those who are in Christ and have the Holy Spirit,,,,,,,,,,,iow are Christians, are the firstfruits of all the people who will be saved by the mercy of God.
That's my belief about it, what is the one you are told to believe?

You say "all Christians have been bought from the earth". Are you referring to Revelation 14:4 . . .These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. . .? Or are you referring to
Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”?
Or both?

How about 1Cor 6:20 or Mark 10:45. All who have been ransomed have been bought from the earth. This is what God says.
Your answer? "The GB says..............."

Are you saying you believe that all people will be kings and priest on heavenly Mount Zion, ruling the earth?
Please provide scripture that support your claims.

It looks to me that Christians are going to be Kings and Priests and if any ruling is to be done it will be over the nations, the ones who were saved through the mercy of God even though they did not become Christians. All of those who are joined to Israel as Christians and those saved from Israel will be in the New Jerusalem and the nations, the others in the Book of Life, will be in other parts of the earth and come to Jerusalem for feasts imo
Rev 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[Brian2]

I read those verses, but nowhere did I read anything saying New Jerusalem will come down to earth.
Which translation are you using? Maybe it's a paraphrase. Can you quote it?

For Rev 3:12 take your choice of scripture Revelation 3:12 The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

(Matthew 8:11, 12) 11 But I tell you that many from east and west will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of the heavens; 12 whereas the sons of the Kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.”

(Luke 13:27-30) 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’ 28 There is where your weeping and the gnashing of your teeth will be, when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown outside. 29 Furthermore, people will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God. 30 And look! there are those last who will be first, and there are those first who will be last.”

As I said before, if you want to know why JWs do not believe what you do, go to the link I posted.
Did you read Luke 13:25-28?
It looks like some people are going to be in heaven knocking on doors, and there is also a dark place in heaven.
Do you believe that?
Did you also read Matthew 13:10-15. Therein lies the answer to your question.

What I was referring to is the fact that it is not just the 144000 who are in the Kingdom of God, the Old Testament saints will be there also. The Kingdom is not just a ruling elite, it is all the domain over which God rules.

 

[Brian2]

Perhaps you didn't read this post.
Or perhaps you want to be the one to tell JWs what they must do?
So Strong's is wrong, according to you, correct?

"Dispose of by will", appoint. Strongs is correct and the NWT is correct but the NWT does not help us see that being in the Kingdom is a gift and the Kingdom is something that is ours.
Luke 12:31 But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added unto you. 32 Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom.
There is no big deal about the NWT variation in translation really but JWs seem to want to make it a bigger deal than it warrants. Is it a big deal? Does it (Luke 22:29) have to be translated "covenant" to bring out some truth that the WT teaches?

 

[cataway]

For Rev 3:12 take your choice of scripture Revelation 3:12 The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”



What I was referring to is the fact that it is not just the 144000 who are in the Kingdom of God, the Old Testament saints will be there also. The Kingdom is not just a ruling elite, it is all the domain over which God rules.

perhaps you are confusing some thing , the Old Testament saints as you call them . will be resurrected and will be living and it will be possible to visit with them . just because these one once had authority does not mean they will also have authority in the future kingdom rule