JWs & The Bible

[Brian2]

If Jesus' "parousia" was his "coming" where "every eye would see him" and people would beat themselves in grief because of the realization that they were about to die....why would the disciples need a "sign" to tell them that he was present? It was to be identified by world events, not supernatural ones, but things that identify a time period when all these elements of the sign would be visible in one time period in an unprecedented way. What has been the catch cry of the world in the last couple of years?....events that are "unprecedented!".

His arrival and being alongside could need a sign. The disciples probably would not have been thinking of a huge world shattering event that all would be aware of. They knew Jesus as a man, and then as a risen man with a visible body. Everything had to be explained. That also included the size of the event. It would not be a matter of the Christ returning and being somewhere so that we could go and meet Him, it was going to be big and all would know, because it was going to be from one side of the world to the other.
The disciples were told that He would come back the same way they had seem Him ascend to heaven. But the descent was going to be with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God and thousands of angels etc, and the dead in Christ would be resurrected etc. Eventually every eye would see Him.
For a start and invisible presence for over 100 years needs an invisible Jesus and He went to heaven with His resurrected body, so why would He not come back with it, something that we could see?

That is to occur when Christ comes as judge......also called his "manifestation".....not just his presence as a reigning King, preparing his fellow rulers and subjects for what is to come. No one will be in any doubt then....

I have not done much study on the return of Jesus, I need to look into it more.

 

[nPeace]

And with all that the JWs need an invisible Jesus. It is amazing how doctrines fit together.
A risen Jesus with a visible body as Jesus had at His resurrection and as far as we know still has, is not going to work for the JW doctrine of an invisible Jesus being with us for over 100 years now.

According to the Bible, jesus was not raised in a physical body.

New International Version
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

New Living Translation
Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

English Standard Version
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Berean Study Bible
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit,

Berean Literal Bible
because Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, so that He might bring you to God, having been put to death indeed in the flesh, but having been made alive in the spirit,

King James Bible
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

New King James Version
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

NASB 1995
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

NASB 1977
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Amplified Bible
For indeed Christ died for sins once for all, the Just and Righteous for the unjust and unrighteous [the Innocent for the guilty] so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;

Christian Standard Bible
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm.

American Standard Version
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

Contemporary English Version
Christ died once for our sins. An innocent person died for those who are guilty. Christ did this to bring you to God, when his body was put to death and his spirit was made alive.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,

English Revised Version
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit;

Good News Translation
For Christ died for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is true because Christ suffered for our sins once. He was an innocent person, but he suffered for guilty people so that he could bring you to God. His body was put to death, but he was brought to life through his spirit.

International Standard Version
For the Messiah also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in a mortal body but was brought to life by the Spirit,

Literal Standard Version
also because Christ suffered once for sin—righteous for unrighteous—that He might lead us to God, indeed having been put to death in the flesh, but having been made alive in the Spirit,

NET Bible
Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.

New Heart English Bible
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Weymouth New Testament
because Christ also once for all died for sins, the innocent One for the guilty many, in order to bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,

World English Bible
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Young's Literal Translation
because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

So yes. What JWs teach, does fit together with the Bible.
You think that's a bad thing, evidently.

 

[nPeace]

@Brian2 Don't think you are off the hook though. You left a post unanswered. Here it is again.

Jesus is the one who instructed us in the method - Matthew 9:35-38 ; Luke 8:1 ; 10:1, 2 ; Romans 10:13-15, the message (the kingdom of God), the territory (all the nations of the earth), and the duration (until the end of the world, before the end comes).
Therefore, questions: how is it you say, these are commands of men? Did I misquote a scriptural text? Which command did we alter? Please state.

Questions: Do you believe that God has an organization on earth?
Then would Jesus not be the one running that organization? Would that organization not be the one carrying out the commands and the work the Lord Jesus started, and ordered his followers to continue?

Jehovah's witnesses are obeying the orders of Jesus Christ. Is that not so?

1. They preach and teach about the kingdom to every tribe and nation throughout the earth.
2. They follow Jesus example in his method of organizing in twos (two by two) those sent out to preach.
3. They go to the homes of people, and stay in the homes of those who show interest - teaching them, and making disciples... baptizing them. Those in turn become disciples - followers of Christ.
4. They do this urgently, and continually.
   (2 Timothy 4:2) . . .Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching.

Question: Which one of these, is a commandment of men, and not from the lord Jesus Christ?
Another question: Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses, which organization on earth do you know of that does these things, or compares?

Please answer the questions. A dialog between two persons, at time involves question which helps it progress productively. These are important to any further conversation.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Let's take a look.
Post #12
Quote ***
The idea is that we put aside all our accumulated dogma/orthodoxy and say you and I are two collaborators investigating as a team just what the Divine guidance is. We just work w/ what's in the Bible passage by passage that we check out together agreeing all the way or defining what we can't reconcile where ever we hit a snag.

Like we could say, look at Matthew 24 & agree on what it says and elaborate only by referring to other passages in the Bible. Probably we'll be tempted to cite authorities from our particular religious organizations but given our relationship that would have to be on a fwiw basis.

If Mat24 doesn't work for u maybe there's somewhere else in the Bible u'd like to look? To me the advantage of 24 is it seems to be to the point we're interested in.
***Unquote

My responses are in the bright red.
Post #14
Okay. I'll give you the chance to build without a foundation. You go first. Matthew 24... which verse are we starting with?

Post #17
Personally I'd have thought that the Bible itself was the best foundation, but I may be talking about something different than what u mean.

At any rate, I'm looking at the chapter right now & what I see at the beginning is Jesus commenting that everything's going to be torn down & the disciples ask when this is going to happen & how will we know. Sound like what u see at the beginning?

Post #19
When you say everything, do you mean the beloved city of Jerusalem with its temple?
@Pete in Panama do you realize what just happened here?

Post #20
That very well may be the case but I'm more interested in getting into the end times & whether Jerusalem is beloved or not is not my focus. Was there something critical to you here? My preference atm is that we move forward if we can.

Post #22
Matthew 24:1-3
1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

Okay, so you are not interested in the first fulfillment - the last days of the Jewish system.
You are interested in the last days of this system.

Okay. So far I am with you.
Yes. There will be signs indicating when the last days would begin. Also Christ's parousia (παρουσία, ας, ἡ) Some use the word presence, while others say coming.
This could present a problem, so what do we do here, as persons starting from scratch?

We have the word usage here.
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

What do you suggest?

Post #25
Super!! It is so fantastic that you're willing to go to the original Greek to get as close as possible to the original intent.

Post #26
To The Anointed
We may very well be able to agree on that together but right now we're doing one thing at a time and we haven't gotten to that yet. Right now @nPeace and I are in Matthew 24 where Jesus did specifically describe signs of the end times. It's a bit easier to maintain joint clarity w/ one scriptural passage at a time --for us that is.

Post #28
Of course, I think that's important because some times translators use words that fit their understanding or ideas.

Consider the Greek word parousia. When translated coming, it can convey a wrong understanding of what the original writers were stating.

Consider HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

When we consider the literal meaning, right away, we see that coming does not fit.
Coming does not mean arrived, or present.
Yet this is what the Greek word conveys.- personal presence... from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation".

So for a person now starting out from scratch, a good study Bible is quite useful in helping them get a better perspective... not to mention, if they have a background they have a better understanding.

So we can understand Matthew 24:3 to read ...what will be the sign of your presence, or Fill the blank. so that we can move on.

Post #29
Pse check to see if we're reading this next part together, that we're hearing about false prophets, not the time of the end, earthquakes/famines, not the time of the end, then the Book of Daniel and the Son of Man.

Is that what u got so far?

Let's pause the recording...
I want to put a pin there for reference.
Note :
Pete did not respond to the query on Matthew 24:3 and Jesus presence. Neither Nay, or yeah.... but moved on.

Continued next post.

It's obvious you went to a lot of work to review our convo & my thanks goes out to you. It's a bit hard for me to piece it all together w/ certainty but what I get is that when following Christ's instruction to go to Daniel you take it to mean Chapter 9 & not 8. @Dejee if you're there I'd be grateful to u for your thoughts on this & where we could move on to.

fwiw, the Bible wasn't divided into Chapters until the 13th century & verses didn't come into being until the 16th century. This is why my thinking was so focused on context & not chapters. It would be nice if we could continue, this is something that I'm deeply involved in. If we can't go from here then please let me tell u that I'm grateful for your time & attention & I'll ponder why we got stuck again.

 

[Pete in Panama]

And with all that the JWs need an invisible Jesus. It is amazing how doctrines fit together.
A risen Jesus with a visible body as Jesus had at His resurrection and as far as we know still has, is not going to work for the JW doctrine of an invisible Jesus being with us for over 100 years now.

Looks like we're both slowing down w/ the same kind of stonewalling. To me what we're studying is vitally important but wending our way though these discussion is like herding cats.

Something else that's interesting about the spiritual resurrection of Christ is the fact that there was some guy in the old testament who was also resurrected. If I have to I can find it if it's significant, but the point is that if we say one was metaphorical then why not both? This conflict w/ observable reality pains me. Like Jesus told Nicodemus about being "born again", that if we have an eye we'll see.

 

[nPeace]

It's obvious you went to a lot of work to review our convo & my thanks goes out to you. It's a bit hard for me to piece it all together w/ certainty but what I get is that when following Christ's instruction to go to Daniel you take it to mean Chapter 9 & not 8. @Dejee if you're there I'd be grateful to u for your thoughts on this & where we could move on to.

fwiw, the Bible wasn't divided into Chapters until the 13th century & verses didn't come into being until the 16th century. This is why my thinking was so focused on context & not chapters. It would be nice if we could continue, this is something that I'm deeply involved in. If we can't go from here then please let me tell u that I'm grateful for your time & attention & I'll ponder why we got stuck again.

Would I be correct in saying that you did not read through the posts completely, perhaps because you don't like reading what seems long to you? Or am i wrong, and you did carefully read the posts in their entirety?

If you did read them in their entirety - , and did not respond to any of my concerns or interests, then what else can I say, but, take care Pete. I hope Deeje is able to help you

 

[Pete in Panama]

...If you did read them in their entirety - , and did not respond to any of my concerns or interests...

There was so much there that I took it to where I was thinking, but if there's any one thing that's really important to you for which you've been waiting for a response, then please share it again & I promise to give it my best shot.

 

[nPeace]

There was so much there that I took it to where I was thinking, but if there's any one thing that's really important to you for which you've been waiting for a response, then please share it again & I promise to give it my best shot.

Read the post Pete. Why are you here? If you are interested in what others say, show it.
No one is posting on Rf, for their health... at least I am not.

 

[Deeje]

It's obvious you went to a lot of work to review our convo & my thanks goes out to you. It's a bit hard for me to piece it all together w/ certainty but what I get is that when following Christ's instruction to go to Daniel you take it to mean Chapter 9 & not 8. @Dejee if you're there I'd be grateful to u for your thoughts on this & where we could move on to.

fwiw, the Bible wasn't divided into Chapters until the 13th century & verses didn't come into being until the 16th century. This is why my thinking was so focused on context & not chapters. It would be nice if we could continue, this is something that I'm deeply involved in. If we can't go from here then please let me tell u that I'm grateful for your time & attention & I'll ponder why we got stuck again.

The tyranny of distance means that our time zones clash somewhat, but if you have patience with me being unable to address your concerns straight away, we can proceed.

So let’s ask the burning question......what did Jesus mean in Matthew 24:15 and why do we need discernment in our evaluation of what Daniel foretold. I have a big picture in mind, so it is easy for me to fill in the blanks, but if you have no big picture, it will be more difficult. JW’s are Bible students, so we are researchers and diligent students of God’s word. The Bible is all one story to us. To understand one part, you must understand all its parts....all equally important or they would not be there.

So firstly, what are your thoughts concerning that burning question.....let’s hear what you are thinking first.....and go from there.

I am going to be busy today but will get back to it as soon as I can...

 

[Pete in Panama]

...what did Jesus mean in Matthew 24:15 and why do we need discernment in our evaluation of what Daniel foretold...

OK, that passage reads:

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a]">[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

--& the import I'm getting here is that in our understanding of the time of the end (w/ all the other stuff happening that he mentions) we are also to include that portion of Daniel that concerns 'the abomination that causes desolation'. What do u get?

...I am going to be busy today but will get back to it as soon as I can...

lol! no hurry, enjoy life!

 

[Deeje]

--& the import I'm getting here is that in our understanding of the time of the end (w/ all the other stuff happening that he mentions) we are also to include that portion of Daniel that concerns 'the abomination that causes desolation'. What do u get?

Imagine the situation of Christians in Jerusalem after the Roman attack in 66 C.E? Jesus had warned that the city would be surrounded and destroyed. (Luke 19:43, 44) Most Jews ignored him. But his disciples heeded his warning, fleeing to the mountains with basically the clothes on their backs.

In the prophecy with implications for us today, Jesus outlined a composite sign that included wars, food shortages, earthquakes, pestilences, and persecution of Christians preaching about God’s Kingdom. (Matthew 24:4-14; Luke 21:10-19)...and a ‘disgusting thing that causes desolation standing in a holy place.’ (Matthew 24:15-21)

The first fulfillment involved the Roman assault on Jerusalem and its temple—a place holy to the Jews but no longer holy to Jehovah—that assault began in 66 C.E. but the Romans inexplicably left, leaving an escape period for the Christians to heed Jesus command to "flee to the mountains". Complete desolation occurred when the Romans returned without warning and destroyed both the city and its temple in 70 C.E. What was “the disgusting thing” back then? And how did it ‘stand in a holy place’?

In Daniel ch 9 we find a prophecy indicating when Messiah would appear and foretelling that he would be “cut off” after three and a half years....and that is exactly what happened. Jesus' ministry lasted exactly three and a half years and he was "cut off" in death.

In the ancient pattern, ‘the disgusting thing standing in a holy place’ was linked to the Roman attack under General Gallus in 66 C.E. The modern-day parallel to that attack—the outbreak of the great tribulation—is still ahead. So “the disgusting thing that causes desolation,” which has existed since 1919, apparently is yet to stand in a holy place. How will this happen? And how can we be affected?

The book of Revelation describes a future destructive attack on false religion. Chapter 17 outlines God’s judgment against “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots”—which we believe is the devil's world empire of false religion. These false religions, including Christendom, have long had illicit dealings with “the kings of the earth,” but this will end in the desolation of those religions. (Revelation 17:2, 5)

Revelation 17:16, 17 shows that God will yet put it into the hearts of certain human rulers who are a prominent part of a “scarlet-colored wild beast” to desolate the world empire of false religion. We believe that that attack marks the outbreak of the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:21)

The "disgusting thing" today made its appearance early in 20th century as the "League of Nations" which disappeared during WW2 and re-emerged as "the United Nations" after the war ended.....so it has actually existed for decades, but it has never had enough power to fulfill its mandate.......peace has eluded us in all the days of its existence, everywhere in the world.......yet we see that it will take up a position in a unique way “in a holy place” in the near future....again a place holy to man but not to God.

As first-century followers of Christ must have keenly watched to see how the “standing in a holy place” would develop back then, so do present-day Christians. Admittedly, we will have to wait for the actual fulfillment to know all the details. Yet, isn't it obvious that in many lands there is already a strong and growing hostility toward religion and a decided move towards science based secularism? Some political elements are promoting hostility against religion in general, and have been eroding its influence over mankind. Many view that as a good thing....and in a way it is....but Christendom is a prominent part of false religion....and the command from Jehovah is to "get out of "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 18:4-5) because she is disgusting to him and she will go down with the rest of the devil's world system of things.

Is there anything you disagree with so far?

 

[Brian2]

According to the Bible, jesus was not raised in a physical body.
View attachment 49246

New International Version
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

New Living Translation
Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

English Standard Version
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Berean Study Bible
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit,

Berean Literal Bible
because Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, so that He might bring you to God, having been put to death indeed in the flesh, but having been made alive in the spirit,

King James Bible
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

New King James Version
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

NASB 1995
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

NASB 1977
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Amplified Bible
For indeed Christ died for sins once for all, the Just and Righteous for the unjust and unrighteous [the Innocent for the guilty] so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;

Christian Standard Bible
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm.

American Standard Version
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

Contemporary English Version
Christ died once for our sins. An innocent person died for those who are guilty. Christ did this to bring you to God, when his body was put to death and his spirit was made alive.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,

English Revised Version
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit;

Good News Translation
For Christ died for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is true because Christ suffered for our sins once. He was an innocent person, but he suffered for guilty people so that he could bring you to God. His body was put to death, but he was brought to life through his spirit.

International Standard Version
For the Messiah also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in a mortal body but was brought to life by the Spirit,

Literal Standard Version
also because Christ suffered once for sin—righteous for unrighteous—that He might lead us to God, indeed having been put to death in the flesh, but having been made alive in the Spirit,

NET Bible
Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.

New Heart English Bible
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Weymouth New Testament
because Christ also once for all died for sins, the innocent One for the guilty many, in order to bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,

World English Bible
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Young's Literal Translation
because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

So yes. What JWs teach, does fit together with the Bible.
You think that's a bad thing, evidently.

I do notice the variations in how that verse is translated "in the spirit", in the Spirit" "by the Spirit", "in His Spirit", "in the spiritual realm"....................Hmmmmmmmmm I wonder what the right translation is and what it means.
I do notice however that none of them say "as a spirit".
If the right translation is "by the Spirit" then it could be talking about His resurrection. That is attested in other places in the NT. With this translation it might mean that He went to preach to the spirits in prison between His death and resurrection. It might mean that also if the right translation is "in the spirit" or "in His spirit".
It cannot be about His resurrection if the right translation is "in the spirit" however because if it was about His resurrection it would say "made alive in the flesh", and that is because what we do know is that Jesus rose in the flesh.
Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Matt 28:6 He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay.
These are very plain verses and not ones that can be denied or that the correct meaning cannot be ascertained. But as I have said 1Pet 3:18 is not about His resurrection when we compare verses.
If you want to go by what the WT teaches along with theories about what happened to His body, and not what the Bible teaches that is your choice I guess.
Creating contradictions in the Bible seems to be part of what the WT does and then explains them away with theories that only someone loyal to the WT and not God and His Word would believe.

 

[Brian2]

Looks like we're both slowing down w/ the same kind of stonewalling. To me what we're studying is vitally important but wending our way though these discussion is like herding cats.

Something else that's interesting about the spiritual resurrection of Christ is the fact that there was some guy in the old testament who was also resurrected. If I have to I can find it if it's significant, but the point is that if we say one was metaphorical then why not both? This conflict w/ observable reality pains me. Like Jesus told Nicodemus about being "born again", that if we have an eye we'll see.

Herding cats, that gave me a laugh.
I haven't been following your conversation closely but it looks like they want to explain things to you slowly and from scratch with their understanding of things so that there is no confusion and you get a true picture of what the Bible means,,,,,,,,,,,,,,hmmmm
I'm not sure about the guy in the OT who was resurrected. I can remember a couple of children who were brought back to life.
They lived on as humans. This is the true picture of what a resurrection is. A man died and is brought back to life as a human.
The final resurrection is different however. The JWs say that some Christians are resurrected as humans in the flesh and some as spirits. They also say that Jesus rose as a spirit when the Bible says that He rose in the flesh.
From a normal Christian pov that resurrection gives us a body that has been transformed into a spiritual body but is not a spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,as can be seen from the body Jesus rose in.
This thread was started for me as a continuation of a discussion in another thread. It sort of changed direction in this thread and I seem to have rules to go by now. I've been a bit slow to respond to posts.
You are getting a lot of feed back but I guess it is too slow for you. What can you do?
Maybe hang around till they get to the part you have issues with and jump in then. These things take patience.

 

[metis]

"Babylon the Great" was a cloaked reference to the Roman Empire, thus not the Church. In one of Peter's epistles, "Babylon" is put in the female-gender, which theologians tend to believe is a reference to the city of Rome.

 

[Brian2]

I thought I left more that one unanswered. I probably would have answered them. This one I remember was part of a longer post and I did not think this part needed answering, as it had been answered before, but I'll try, just for you.

@Brian2 Don't think you are off the hook though. You left a post unanswered. Here it is again.

Jesus is the one who instructed us in the method - Matthew 9:35-38 ; Luke 8:1 ; 10:1, 2 ; Romans 10:13-15, the message (the kingdom of God), the territory (all the nations of the earth), and the duration (until the end of the world, before the end comes).
Therefore, questions: how is it you say, these are commands of men? Did I misquote a scriptural text? Which command did we alter? Please state.

I don't really see these as commands or even necessarily as instructions.
It is good to go with more than one person if you are intending to go out specifically to spread the Word.
Certainly pray for more workers and if you are called to do that by the Lord then do it.
I think that the Christian Church has done that sort of work in the past and in places where the gospel has not been heard. It is different times now and different methods are used. The JWs also use different methods in these days of Covid.
The Gov Bod I guess has made the spreading of the WT message a priority, esp since the time is seen as very short these days and since the preaching began.
In Australia it is probably getting to the point where many younger people have not heard the gospel and many people just do not want to hear it these days. It is probably time to come up with new methods, maybe door to door like the JWs. But we do not make these things into a command and part of being obedient to God. It is a matter of being called to do it by the Lord.

Questions:

Do you believe that God has an organization on earth?
Then would Jesus not be the one running that organization? Would that organization not be the one carrying out the commands and the work the Lord Jesus started, and ordered his followers to continue?

Yes being the Church does mean the responsibility to spread the Word. The Christian Church does that in various ways.

[QUOTE="nPeace, post: 7102335, member: 64320"]Jehovah's witnesses are obeying the orders of Jesus Christ. Is that not so?

1. They preach and teach about the kingdom to every tribe and nation throughout the earth.
2. They follow Jesus example in his method of organizing in twos (two by two) those sent out to preach.
3. They go to the homes of people, and stay in the homes of those who show interest - teaching them, and making disciples... baptizing them. Those in turn become disciples - followers of Christ.
4. They do this urgently, and continually.
   (2 Timothy 4:2) . . .Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching.[/QUOTE]

The JWs do the work of spreading their message, true. I think Paul was telling Timothy to preach and teach those who are Christian in that passage.

[QUOTE="nPeace, post: 7102335, member: 64320"]Question: Which one of these, is a commandment of men, and not from the lord Jesus Christ?
Another question: Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses, which organization on earth do you know of that does these things, or compares?
[/QUOTE]

They are all from the Lord but seem to have turned into commands in the hands of the Gov Bod. The JWs are known for their work in spreading their gospel.
As I said spreading the word is important in Christian Churches, just not necessarily the way the JWs do.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Whoa, you went to so much work for that post to me & I have got to thank you most sincerely for all the care, attention, thought, and concern you devoted to responding.

One of the biggest things that ur post has shown to me is the possibility of what may very well be an obstacle in our chat, not only w/ u & me but also w/ me & @nPeace. It's the fact that y'all tend to continue exploring far more deeply into an idea long before I'm ready to follow. My thinking is that your thoughts may be just fine but they aren't my thoughts & I'm thinking about something else. Example: you wrote up one paragraph on something that I'm very involved w/ but then u followed up w/ nine other paragraphs on stuff that don't relate to me at all just yet. My guess was that @nPeace seemed to get upset about the fact that I was not responding to so much of what he said, & I was unable to explain to him that the other stuff were things I had no interest in getting into right now.

So here's where I am w/ ur post:

Imagine the situation of Christians in Jerusalem after the Roman attack in 66 C.E? Jesus had warned that the city would be surrounded and destroyed. (Luke 19:43, 44)... ...Is there anything you disagree with so far?

We need to get together on this. When Jesus spoke about Daniel it was when he was saying "...the end will come." My take is that Jesus was talking about the end times and what we needed to see in Daniel was more info about the end times. Is that what ur seeing?

 

[Pete in Panama]

Herding cats, that gave me a laugh.
I haven't been following your conversation closely but it looks like they want to explain things to you slowly and from scratch with their understanding of things so that there is no confusion and you get a true picture of what the Bible means,,,,,,,,,,,,,,hmmmm
I'm not sure about the guy in the OT who was resurrected. I can remember a couple of children who were brought back to life.
They lived on as humans. This is the true picture of what a resurrection is. A man died and is brought back to life as a human.
The final resurrection is different however. The JWs say that some Christians are resurrected as humans in the flesh and some as spirits. They also say that Jesus rose as a spirit when the Bible says that He rose in the flesh.
From a normal Christian pov that resurrection gives us a body that has been transformed into a spiritual body but is not a spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,as can be seen from the body Jesus rose in.
This thread was started for me as a continuation of a discussion in another thread. It sort of changed direction in this thread and I seem to have rules to go by now. I've been a bit slow to respond to posts.
You are getting a lot of feed back but I guess it is too slow for you. What can you do?
Maybe hang around till they get to the part you have issues with and jump in then. These things take patience.

thanks for the headsup on the history of this thread, my interpretation is that this gives me a chance to explore something I ran into not too long ago w/ some other JW's.

My question was for when me & the other JW's had run into our disagreement was whether the problem was one of us latching onto orthodox dogma and rejecting the truth, or is there an honest difference of understanding here. Fortunately patience I got a lot of. I live out in the middle of a rain forest & it's so nice to chat in English w/ someone.

 

[Deeje]

Whoa, you went to so much work for that post to me & I have got to thank you most sincerely for all the care, attention, thought, and concern you devoted to responding.

JW’s are Bible students.....not all of us have the capacity for deep study, but we are encouraged to research everything as deeply as we can to add detail to the “big picture”. Like the pixels that make up an image, the more pixels you have, the clearer the picture becomes. JW’s study the Bible in HD.

You see, when you have a jig-saw puzzle with literally hundreds of pieces, you need the (big) picture on the lid of the box to know where to put all the pieces. There is no point in having all those pieces if we cannot connect them to the rest of the puzzle.

I hope that explains our approach.

One of the biggest things that ur post has shown to me is the possibility of what may very well be an obstacle in our chat, not only w/ u & me but also w/ me & @nPeace. It's the fact that y'all tend to continue exploring far more deeply into an idea long before I'm ready to follow.

We don’t study like that. A surface knowledge in the Bible is called “the milk” that we need when we are infants.....but milk is not what will keep us growing. If we can’t get into the “solid food” of the word, then our spiritual development will be stunted.

Paul wrote to the Hebrew Christians.....
“12 For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” (Hebrews 5:12-14)

I hope that reinforces the point. We should be training ourselves to be teachers because that is what all Christians had to be. (Matthew 28:19-20) Would you like a teacher who only had a surface knowledge of his subject?

My thinking is that your thoughts may be just fine but they aren't my thoughts & I'm thinking about something else. Example: you wrote up one paragraph on something that I'm very involved w/ but then u followed up w/ nine other paragraphs on stuff that don't relate to me at all just yet.

We are trying to lay a foundation so that you can develop the 'teeth' you need for chewing on the 'meat', because it seems to me like you want to by-pass this necessary step and tackle the meat before you’ve got the ‘choppers’, or learned to digest the milk.

My guess was that @nPeace seemed to get upset about the fact that I was not responding to so much of what he said, & I was unable to explain to him that the other stuff were things I had no interest in getting into right now.

If you just want a plate of meat, we can give you that, but I don’t think that will give you any appreciation about why you need the teeth to chew it.......without a foundation to build on, you will not understand much of the reason why God has conducted this ‘object lesson’ called life, of which we are all a part, in a world that is alienated from the Creator. Instead we have a mish-mash of gods and religious beliefs that clearly cause confusion for the majority. We have to know what our choices are, and why we need to make them with all the available knowledge. Where did all these 'gods' and conflicting beliefs come from?

I find that the Baha'i faith has managed to avoid the necessary choices by making all gods and religion OK with the god they worship...I am not certain who that is exactly. That has never been the history of Jehovah's dealings with humankind. He has always had his true worshippers, separated out from the ones who followed after other gods, and they always followed just one set of laws written by him, not themselves, and they were to avoid all forms of false worship.

The one thing we find missing in most of the world’s religions today is the answer to the most asked question......“why is there so much suffering in a world supposedly created by a loving God?”

What is the point of this life if it’s full of tragedy, suffering, inequality and injustice? Where does a loving God fit in?

We need to get together on this. When Jesus spoke about Daniel it was when he was saying "...the end will come." My take is that Jesus was talking about the end times and what we needed to see in Daniel was more info about the end times. Is that what ur seeing?

The dual fulfillment means that much of what Jesus predicted would be seen in both instances. The “disgusting thing” in the first century was the Roman army with their standards flying, (glorifying their own gods) and breaching the walls of Jerusalem and eventually destroying the accepted form of worship of the Jews, (God's people) along with the main symbol of God’s presence among them....their temple. This could only happen by God's permission.

So what is the “disgusting thing” in our day? There is a parallel in noting what causes the foretold ‘desolation’ of “Babylon the great”, (named after original “Babylon” which was the place where all false religion began). This is a world empire built by the devil to encompass all the various forms of worship that is in opposition to the true God. He does not care who you worship as long as its not Jehovah. All worship that does not go to the true God, goes to the devil by default.

Christendom by its adoption of false religious doctrines has made itself part of that empire...yet she still views herself as "God's people", just like the Jews did......they did not discern that God had abandoned them, and Christendom doesn't either.

Revelation 18:1-3 tells us about her "fallen" status and how she appears to God....like an immoral prostitute currying favor with the world and its rulers....and providing profit for the commercial system. She displays her opulent wealth in her many temples, devoted to their false gods, whist the poor among their nations continue to suffer.
In his address to the Athenians Paul said...
"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples." Christians were never told to build them.....yet Christendom has hundreds of huge temples and cathedrals all over the world. Jesus would not have set foot in any of them.

Revelation 18:4-5 is thus a command for God's "people" to get out of “Babylon the great” because God is going to destroy her.....just as Jesus commanded his disciples to get out of Jerusalem before his Father allowed the Jewish system to end, by the hand of the Romans (his purpose in connection with their Messiah, was fully accomplished despite their rejection of him).

The “disgusting thing” that will accomplish the demise of "Babylon the great" in our time is the United Nations (something that “World Council of Churches” once hailed as “the political expression of God’s Kingdom on earth” effectively putting this man-made and inept organization in place of the real kingdom of God.)
This entity is described as an "eighth king that springs from the seven"....IOW this entity is sponsored by all the nations on earth and in these end times will give this previously toothless tiger, all the power it needs to form it one world government. Its first act will be to destroy religion.....the most divisive element among humankind. It will come without warning.

No man-made organization will ever accomplish what God's Kingdom will do. So, like Judaism before it, Christendom by its own deeds and beliefs, has lost God's favor and will go down by the hand of her own "lovers"....these will actually lament her passing. (Revelation 18:9-10; 15-17)

That "disgusting thing" standing in place of God's Kingdom in the eyes of man, will then itself be utterly destroyed by the God she rejected. Only those who are informed by Daniel's prophesy will understand what is happening when the world is promised "peace and security"....only to be given the death knell by God who will sweep away all vestiges of this sad and sorry excuse for a life, that man created by his defection. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-6)

What do we then have to look forward to after the events of Daniel 2:44?

Revelation 21:2-4...
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Sounds good to me.....

 

[nPeace]

I do notice the variations in how that verse is translated "in the spirit", in the Spirit" "by the Spirit", "in His Spirit", "in the spiritual realm"....................Hmmmmmmmmm I wonder what the right translation is and what it means.
I do notice however that none of them say "as a spirit".
If the right translation is "by the Spirit" then it could be talking about His resurrection. That is attested in other places in the NT. With this translation it might mean that He went to preach to the spirits in prison between His death and resurrection. It might mean that also if the right translation is "in the spirit" or "in His spirit".
It cannot be about His resurrection if the right translation is "in the spirit" however because if it was about His resurrection it would say "made alive in the flesh", and that is because what we do know is that Jesus rose in the flesh.
Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Matt 28:6 He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay.
These are very plain verses and not ones that can be denied or that the correct meaning cannot be ascertained. But as I have said 1Pet 3:18 is not about His resurrection when we compare verses.
If you want to go by what the WT teaches along with theories about what happened to His body, and not what the Bible teaches that is your choice I guess.
Creating contradictions in the Bible seems to be part of what the WT does and then explains them away with theories that only someone loyal to the WT and not God and His Word would believe.

How about reading it as it was writen?
Put to death flesh. Made alive spirit.
The contrast leaves no room for your ideas.
However, you want to hold on to your beliefs and ignore the clear teachings in the Bible.
So you can hold on to them... as tightly as you desire.
Sad.

I thought I left more that one unanswered. I probably would have answered them. This one I remember was part of a longer post and I did not think this part needed answering, as it had been answered before, but I'll try, just for you.

I don't really see these as commands or even necessarily as instructions.

They are all from the Lord but seem to have turned into commands in the hands of the Gov Bod. The JWs are known for their work in spreading their gospel.
As I said spreading the word is important in Christian Churches, just not necessarily the way the JWs do.

I'm just interested in the part of the post that deals with what I said, or asked.
You seem to contradict yourself here. Can you clarify?
You say you don't see them as commands or even necessary, and then you say, they are all from the Lord.
Are you talking about two different things or the same things?
What don't you see as necessary? What the Lord commanded?

Who commissioned that you spread the word, and what way you should or should not do it?
What gospel do you spread, and again, where did you get your instructions?

 

[Pete in Panama]

JW’s are Bible students.....not all of us have the capacity for deep study, but we are encouraged to research everything as deeply as we can to add detail to the “big picture”. Like the pixels that make up an image, the more pixels you have, the clearer the picture becomes. JW’s study the Bible in HD.

You see, when you have a jig-saw puzzle with literally hundreds of pieces, you need the (big) picture on the lid of the box to know where to put all the pieces. There is no point in having all those pieces if we cannot connect them to the rest of the puzzle.

I hope that explains our approach.



We don’t study like that. A surface knowledge in the Bible is called “the milk” that we need when we are infants.....but milk is not what will keep us growing. If we can’t get into the “solid food” of the word, then our spiritual development will be stunted.

Paul wrote to the Hebrew Christians.....
“12 For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” (Hebrews 5:12-14)

I hope that reinforces the point. We should be training ourselves to be teachers because that is what all Christians had to be. (Matthew 28:19-20) Would you like a teacher who only had a surface knowledge of his subject?



We are trying to lay a foundation so that you can develop the 'teeth' you need for chewing on the 'meat', because it seems to me like you want to by-pass this necessary step and tackle the meat before you’ve got the ‘choppers’, or learned to digest the milk.



If you just want a plate of meat, we can give you that, but I don’t think that will give you any appreciation about why you need the teeth to chew it.......without a foundation to build on, you will not understand much of the reason why God has conducted this ‘object lesson’ called life, of which we are all a part, in a world that is alienated from the Creator. Instead we have a mish-mash of gods and religious beliefs that clearly cause confusion for the majority. We have to know what our choices are, and why we need to make them with all the available knowledge. Where did all these 'gods' and conflicting beliefs come from?

I find that the Baha'i faith has managed to avoid the necessary choices by making all gods and religion OK with the god they worship...I am not certain who that is exactly. That has never been the history of Jehovah's dealings with humankind. He has always had his true worshippers, separated out from the ones who followed after other gods, and they always followed just one set of laws written by him, not themselves, and they were to avoid all forms of false worship.

The one thing we find missing in most of the world’s religions today is the answer to the most asked question......“why is there so much suffering in a world supposedly created by a loving God?”

What is the point of this life if it’s full of tragedy, suffering, inequality and injustice? Where does a loving God fit in?


The dual fulfillment means that much of what Jesus predicted would be seen in both instances. The “disgusting thing” in the first century was the Roman army with their standards flying, (glorifying their own gods) and breaching the walls of Jerusalem and eventually destroying the accepted form of worship of the Jews, (God's people) along with the main symbol of God’s presence among them....their temple. This could only happen by God's permission.

So what is the “disgusting thing” in our day? There is a parallel in noting what causes the foretold ‘desolation’ of “Babylon the great”, (named after original “Babylon” which was the place where all false religion began). This is a world empire built by the devil to encompass all the various forms of worship that is in opposition to the true God. He does not care who you worship as long as its not Jehovah. All worship that does not go to the true God, goes to the devil by default.

Christendom by its adoption of false religious doctrines has made itself part of that empire...yet she still views herself as "God's people", just like the Jews did......they did not discern that God had abandoned them, and Christendom doesn't either.

Revelation 18:1-3 tells us about her "fallen" status and how she appears to God....like an immoral prostitute currying favor with the world and its rulers....and providing profit for the commercial system. She displays her opulent wealth in her many temples, devoted to their false gods, whist the poor among their nations continue to suffer.
In his address to the Athenians Paul said...
"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples." Christians were never told to build them.....yet Christendom has hundreds of huge temples and cathedrals all over the world. Jesus would not have set foot in any of them.

Revelation 18:4-5 is thus a command for God's "people" to get out of “Babylon the great” because God is going to destroy her.....just as Jesus commanded his disciples to get out of Jerusalem before his Father allowed the Jewish system to end, by the hand of the Romans (his purpose in connection with their Messiah, was fully accomplished despite their rejection of him).

The “disgusting thing” that will accomplish the demise of "Babylon the great" in our time is the United Nations (something that “World Council of Churches” once hailed as “the political expression of God’s Kingdom on earth” effectively putting this man-made and inept organization in place of the real kingdom of God.)
This entity is described as an "eighth king that springs from the seven"....IOW this entity is sponsored by all the nations on earth and in these end times will give this previously toothless tiger, all the power it needs to form it one world government. Its first act will be to destroy religion.....the most divisive element among humankind. It will come without warning.

No man-made organization will ever accomplish what God's Kingdom will do. So, like Judaism before it, Christendom by its own deeds and beliefs, has lost God's favor and will go down by the hand of her own "lovers"....these will actually lament her passing. (Revelation 18:9-10; 15-17)

That "disgusting thing" standing in place of God's Kingdom in the eyes of man, will then itself be utterly destroyed by the God she rejected. Only those who are informed by Daniel's prophesy will understand what is happening when the world is promised "peace and security"....only to be given the death knell by God who will sweep away all vestiges of this sad and sorry excuse for a life, that man created by his defection. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-6)

What do we then have to look forward to after the events of Daniel 2:44?

Revelation 21:2-4...
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Sounds good to me.....

Perhaps I misspoke.

What I'm trying to say it that when Jesus was asked about the end times he said (among other things) we should look at what Gabriel told Daniel. Please tell me if u agree w/ this take & tell me if u'd like to work w/ me like colleagues to see what's there.