JWs & The Bible

[nPeace]

My hope is that we can follow Christ's instruction together. If you want to talk about it then super! If not I'll thank you & we can be on our way. Whatever u say is fine w/ me. How about u @Deeje?

Christ's instructions are stated in the Bible. I referred to these in the thread. Okay. So long, and take care.

 

[Pete in Panama]

kk, too bad about that, I'd have thot we wanted to follow Christ's instruction but maybe ur thinking of something I'm not getting.

 

[nPeace]

kk, too bad about that, I'd have thot we wanted to follow Christ's instruction but maybe ur thinking of something I'm not getting.

You asked for discussion, correct?
I responded. correct?
Have you responded to my responses? No. correct?

 

[Pete in Panama]

You asked for discussion, correct?
I responded. correct?
Have you responded to my responses? No. correct?

You sound angry, or at the very least exasperated --and that certainly was never my intent.

Somehow I'd thought that I was engaging your posts every step of the way & apparently we certainly are not in agreement on that. I can tell you that I've read though all of your posts bit I have not committed them to memory so I'm not in a position to get into any of them w/o going back over them. If u get a chance please think about what was the one most important point that you made to me that you feel I ignored, & please cite or repeat that one most important point to me & I would be most grateful.

 

[nPeace]

You sound angry, or at the very least exasperated --and that certainly was never my intent.

You can't hear me Pete, so how could I sound angry?
You sound dismissive, but then I can't hear you either.
No. I definitely am not angry, but simply asking why you are dismissing me after I addressed the things you wanted to discuss, after you insisted we do things your way rather than my way, and I complied.
It's like if someone asks you to meet them in Central Park. You say okay. You turn up at Central Park. The person is not there, but then they telephone you and say, 'Uh. I thought you were interested in meeting me. You can meet me in Woodland Park, and when you object to that, they say, 'well it's really your fault you are in Central Park you know. You really don't want to meet me'.

You would probably be angry.
I would tell the person as it is.
I'm not angry. I'm telling you as it is... after you try to discredit me.
kk, too bad about that, I'd have thot we wanted to follow Christ's instruction but maybe ur thinking of something I'm not getting.

Somehow I'd thought that I was engaging your posts every step of the way & apparently we certainly are not in agreement on that. I can tell you that I've read though all of your posts bit I have not committed them to memory so I'm not in a position to get into any of them w/o going back over them. If u get a chance please think about what was the one most important point that you made to me that you feel I ignored, & please cite or repeat that one most important point to me & I would be most grateful.

All you need to do is what you started doing before you went silent and left me wondering what to do... acknowledge that you follow, agree, or disagree.
That's conversation isn't it? After all I can't see if you nod your head or shake it.

I'm not angry. See

Happy nPeace.

 

[Deeje]

My hope is that we can follow Christ's instruction together. If you want to talk about it then super! If not I'll thank you & we can be on our way. Whatever u say is fine w/ me. How about u @Deeje?

I am happy to discuss anything that you would like to specifically explore, although @nPeace has covered the subject quite thoroughly.
What is it that you cannot accept about Matthew 24 in our explanation?...perhaps you are missing something in the big picture that answers your questions? If you have studied with us before, where did the doubt begin to undermine the things you had agreed with before?

 

[Deeje]

I'd hit it off great before & we hit a snag on the Christ's reference (in Matthew 24 apparently, verse 15)--

Can you tell me what the snag was?

Matthew 24:15
"Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment)"

First you have to appreciate that is a prophesy with a dual fulfillment....one pertaining to the end of the Jewish system of things back in 70 CE and God's approval of the Romans destroying the Temple, the very symbol of God's presence among his people, (something he had done once before in demonstrating his contempt for their unfaithfulness) .....and the end of the present system of things that is linked with Christ's return.

What was the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" back then...and what is it today? What is the "holy place" in each of these scenarios? It needs the reader's discernment.

Only when you understand what this was saying back then, can you see the fulfillment today....and what follows....

"16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, 18 and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short."

Over to you.....

 

[Pete in Panama]

I am happy to discuss anything that you would like to specifically explore, although @nPeace has covered the subject quite thoroughly.
What is it that you cannot accept about Matthew 24 in our explanation?...perhaps you are missing something in the big picture that answers your questions? If you have studied with us before, where did the doubt begin to undermine the things you had agreed with before?

Where @nPeace and I were before I got interrupted was--

Pse check to see if we're reading this next part together, that we're hearing about false prophets, not the time of the end, earthquakes/famines, not the time of the end, then the Book of Daniel and the Son of Man.

Is that what u got so far?

--& what I thot we'd do is proceed to the part of Daniel where he referred to ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ (in Matthew 24:15) and I wanted to confirm that we were both still together. Maybe it's there buried in the verbiage but from all the voluminous responses nowhere did I find either a clear willingness to proceed nor was I able to get a confirmation that we'd go to the part of Danial referred to by Christ.

Can we now go there together? Please tell me yes.

 

[Deeje]

Where @nPeace and I were before I got interrupted was--
--& what I thot we'd do is proceed to the part of Daniel where he referred to ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ (in Matthew 24:15) and I wanted to confirm that we were both still together. Maybe it's there buried in the verbiage but from all the voluminous responses nowhere did I find either a clear willingness to proceed nor was I able to get a confirmation that we'd go to the part of Danial referred to by Christ.

Can we now go there together? Please tell me yes.

Of course.....let me call up my research....

 

[nPeace]

Where @nPeace and I were before I got interrupted was--
--& what I thot we'd do is proceed to the part of Daniel where he referred to ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ (in Matthew 24:15) and I wanted to confirm that we were both still together. Maybe it's there buried in the verbiage but from all the voluminous responses nowhere did I find either a clear willingness to proceed nor was I able to get a confirmation that we'd go to the part of Danial referred to by Christ.

Can we now go there together? Please tell me yes.

I see. I was not aware that's what you wanted.
Deeje understands what you are after, so she'll help you out.
Sorry about the mix up and misunderstanding.

 

[Deeje]

@Pete in Panama....

The accounts by Mark and Luke provide supplemental details here. Where Matthew uses “standing in a holy place,” Mark 13:14 says “standing where it ought not.” Luke 21:20 adds Jesus’ words: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” This helps us to see that the first fulfillment involved the Roman assault on Jerusalem and its temple—a place holy to the Jews but no longer the place holy to Jehovah—which began in 66 C.E. But they withdrew for no apparent reason. Complete desolation occurred when the Romans returned and destroyed both city and temple in 70 C.E. What was “the disgusting thing” back then? And how did it ‘stand in a holy place’? Answers to these questions will help to clarify the modern-day fulfillment.

Jesus urged readers to use discernment. Readers of what? Likely, of Daniel chapter 9. There we find a prophecy indicating when Messiah would appear and foretelling that he would be “cut off” after three and a half years. The prophecy says: “Upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”—Daniel 9:26, 27; see also Daniel 11:31; 12:11.

The Jews thought that this applied to the profanation of the temple by Antiochus IV about 200 years earlier. However, Jesus showed otherwise, urging discernment because “the disgusting thing” was yet to appear and stand in “a holy place.” It is apparent that Jesus was referring to the Roman army that would come in 66 C.E. with its distinctive ensigns. Such standards, long in use, were virtual idols and were disgusting to the Jews. When, though, would they ‘stand in a holy place’? That happened when the Roman army, with its ensigns, attacked Jerusalem and its temple, which the Jews considered holy. The Romans even began to undermine the wall of the temple area. Truly, what had long been disgusting now stood in a holy place!—Isaiah 52:1; Matthew 4:5; 27:53; Acts 6:13.

Since World War I, we have seen the larger fulfillment of Jesus’ sign recorded in Matthew chapter 24. Yet, recall his words: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . standing in a holy place, . . . then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Matthew 24:15, 16) This aspect of the prophecy must have a fulfillment in our time too.

I'll wait for your response thus far.....

 

[Brian2]

Also, I will apologize to @Brian2 for my obvious expression of annoyance at his avoidance of specific questions related to the Bible. You are here now Brian, and I thank you for turning up, although I believe you have other intentions than discussing the Bible texts persons give you.
Nevertheless, please, you are welcomed. and enjoy your stay. Maybe @Deeje will be happy to address your posts.
I will do so, only where there is a fairness to respond to questions directly posed to you... on the Bible of course.
I have no desire to argue on what you believe.
Present scriptures, and we will discuss the scriptures, and see if they match up to beliefs.
The topic of the thread is JWs & the Bible, so all you have to do is simply show that JWs teachings do not match up to the Bible.... using scripture, of course.

1Kings 8:26 And now, O God of Israel, please confirm what You promised to Your servant, my father David. 27 But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built.
Acts 17:27 God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’

Are these scriptures true. Is God everywhere?

 

[Brian2]

Please provide the scriptures you are referring to. Also please specifically state what you disagree with from the post, as it clearly explains the use of the Greek word parousia. certainly you are not asking me to repeat, are you?

I wasn't referring to a specific scripture, I was wondering if the WT was being consistent in their translation of parousia or not.

 

[nPeace]

1Kings 8:26 And now, O God of Israel, please confirm what You promised to Your servant, my father David. 27 But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built.
Acts 17:27 God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’

Are these scriptures true. Is God everywhere?

I wasn't referring to a specific scripture, I was wondering if the WT was being consistent in their translation of parousia or not.

Oh Okay. Reminder... We are dealing with scripture.

 

[Brian2]

This is why we are dealing with the scriptures and not could bes. Any could bes, could be left alone. In fact I think they should.

Well the WT interpretation of 3 events is only a could be.

The use of the word coming, would make the text take on the meaning you suggest - that is more specifically the time just before (but can all be put into one) the conclusion of the system of things, because the coming of Christ, as mentioned in the text I referred to here, uses the word coming.
It is important that we recognize that, since that is not referring to when Christ comes as described here...
(Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Notice, a differnt Greek word is used (ἔρχομαι) erchomai.
So it is important to have the correct rendering of Matthew 24:3.
If you use coming, you completely muddle up the account of Matthew 24.
Using the correct term - presence, as explained, in post #28,

Consider the Greek word parousia. When translated coming, it can convey a wrong understanding of what the original writers were stating.

Consider HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

When we consider the literal meaning, right away, we see that coming does not fit.
Coming does not mean arrived, or present.
Yet this is what the Greek word conveys.- personal presence... from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation".​

Are you saying that using presence in Matthew 24:3 is incorrect?[/QUOTE]

No I am not saying that using "presence" at Matt 24:3 is incorrect. However it could be. Why would the disciples know that there would be a "presence"? The word "parousia" is not that cut and dried that it means only "presence".
The disciples were after all responding to the last part of Matt 23. The disciples would have used the word "parousia" to mean the coming that Jesus spoke of in Matt 23:39.

Matt 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Matt 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

 

[nPeace]

@Brian2 could you fix your last post. I think you missed the bracketed quotes somewhere. The post is a bit confusing. I can read it, but it would look better if it were fixed. Thanks

 

[nPeace]

@Brian2
Why would the disciples know that Christ would have a presence?
The prophecies concerning the Messiah clearly stated he was to be a king, and he himself taugh his followers that he was to be king of a heavenly kingdom - God's kingdom.

Spoiler

(Luke 1:32, 33) 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”

(John 18:36) 36 Jesus answered: “My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.”

(Matthew 3:1, 2) . . .In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 saying: “Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”

(Matthew 4:17) 17 From that time on, Jesus began preaching and saying: “Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”

(Matthew 4:23) . . .Then he went throughout the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the Kingdom. . .

(Matthew 6:10) . . .Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.

(Matthew 16:28) . . .Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

(Matthew 18:1) . . .In that hour the disciples came near to Jesus and said: “Who really is greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens?”

(Matthew 20:21) . . .“Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.”

(Matthew 21:5) . . .“Tell the daughter of Zion: ‘Look! Your king is coming to you, mild-tempered and mounted on a donkey, yes, on a colt, the offspring of a beast of burden.’”

(Matthew 26:29) . . .But I say to you: I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.”

(Mark 9:1, 2) 1 . . .Furthermore, he said to them: “Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.” 2 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them;

(Mark 11:9, 10) 9 And those going in front and those coming behind kept shouting: “Save, we pray! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name! 10 Blessed is the coming Kingdom of our father David! Save, we pray, in the heights above!”

Even his enemies knew this.

Spoiler

(Matthew 27:37) . . .They also posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
(Luke 23:42) . . .Then he said: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.”

How is it you say you read the Bible, and you ask a question like that?
Could this be the reason?
(Mark 4:11, 12) 11 He said to them: “To you the sacred secret of the Kingdom of God has been given, but to those outside all things are in illustrations, 12 so that, though looking, they may look and still not see, and though hearing, they may hear and still not get the sense of it; nor will they ever turn back and receive forgiveness.”

Yes. They knew that Jesus prophesied against the Jewish nation, and then he prophesied against their city, so that's why they asked when will these things be, and then they included a query about a sign indicating his presence in kingly power.

Could the Greek word for presence be wrong? No.

 

[Pete in Panama]

I see. I was not aware that's what you wanted.
Deeje understands what you are after, so she'll help you out.
Sorry about the mix up and misunderstanding.

You're sure welcome to hang around & participate but then again you probably have a life. I don't have that problem

 

[Pete in Panama]

...Daniel chapter 9. There we find a prophecy indicating when Messiah would appear and foretelling that he would be “cut off” after three and a half years. The prophecy says: “Upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”—Daniel 9:26, 27; see also Daniel 11:31; 12:11...

Good, we're together. What else I got was that the discussion in Daniel about "desolation" is that the word shows up in chapter 8 also but not before. What I'm see here is that the king had a prophetic dream & Daniel explained it w/ a vision of the angel Gabriel, and chapter nine was a continuation of Daniel's request for more info.

How does that match w/ what ur seeing?

 

[Deeje]

Good, we're together. What else I got was that the discussion in Daniel about "desolation" is that the word shows up in chapter 8 also but not before. What I'm see here is that the king had a prophetic dream & Daniel explained it w/ a vision of the angel Gabriel, and chapter nine was a continuation of Daniel's request for more info.

How does that match w/ what ur seeing?

The whole book of Daniel is fascinating to me.....as a captive in Babylon, Daniel never returned to his beloved homeland, but the fact that he wrote about his visions and dreams and his interactions with Nebuchadnezzar as the head of the Babylonian empire (which was the start of his prophesies) and his interpretations of those dreams that reach all the way down to our day, is interesting reading.

In his prophetic march of world powers, we today can trace all those world powers from Babylon to Medo-Persia, to Greece, to Rome, to Britain and finally to the Anglo-American alliance that dominates the world scene at present. These are the last ruling powers before the Kingdom “comes”...not as some passive internal experience, but as a powerful and crushing change in the way humans are governed....forever. (Daniel 2:44)

Gabriel visited Daniel about 500 years before he informed Mary about the birth of Jesus. Which makes his prophesies all the more interesting. Not only because of how his prophesies were fulfilled in Jesus and the events of the first century fall of Jerusalem, but extending to the time of Jesus’ return and “the end” of another system at God’s command. There is another "disgusting thing" that will cause "desolation" to those who dishonor God. But the desolation will come from an unexpected source.

Some further details are included here if you feel like reading it?.....from our publications explaining Daniel’s prophesies.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101999030

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1970884