Kanye West's "Christian" - "Sunday Service" - Jesus is King Album, Chick Fil-A & the Real Lord's Day

[sooda]

I'd prefer real bible and church history scholars. But that's just me. I probably wouldn't want Hal Holbrook narrating the video of some hack doing my brain surgery, either.

Long, long time ago I went to an after party of Mark Twain Tonight and Hal Holbrook wrote on my napkin, "Be good and you'll be lonesome".

Hal Holbrook, Mark Twain Tonight.

 

[sojourner]

Any yet sojourner, this is no game I play. My responses are in all sobriety and solemnity and entreaty.

The last warnings are going to the world. I only ask that you please, consider what is shared, not in jest, but in verity.

Jesus Christ took upon Himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane, bearing them to Calvary. Your sins, and my sins, and the sins of the whole world. The weight of your sins, or my sins, alone would crush us to dust, but He, with almighty strength, a determination born of love, carried us all. Every sin, brings grief to the heart of God, brings intense suffering. For love asks, Why, what have I done that ye rebel against my hand of mercy and justice?

Will you not bring rest to the heart of God, and obey His holy commandment?

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.​

You and I live in two completely different worlds. I’m very, very comfortable, challenged, stretched, comforted, broadened, and transformed by my spiritual life. I don’t have to believe what you believe in order to be at peace with the cosmos.

 

[coconut theology]

Jesus, the perfect example of the Christian Life (John 14):

Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.​

The most Holy spirit filled person in all of scripture, keeps the 7th day the Sabbath, having the eternal covenant in His Heart, the Ten Commandments, the Law of Love, the perfect character of God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Revelation 1:10 is most compelling. Most reputable scholars say that it does, in fact, allude to the first day of the week.

The verse in Revelation is the ONLY verse which makes a reference to the Lord's Day. However, that verse does NOT state which day of the week it is on.

 

[sojourner]

The verse in Revelation is the ONLY verse which makes a reference to the Lord's Day. However, that verse does NOT state which day of the week it is on.

However, Bible scholars are mostly in consensus, based on context, that it’s assuming the first day of the week. That’s fairly strong testimony.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

However, Bible scholars are mostly in consensus, based on context, that it’s assuming the first day of the week. That’s fairly strong testimony.

Yes, and the consensus of these Bible scholars is based upon the writings of the Apostolic Church Fathers. Not what is is the Bible.

 

[sojourner]

Yes, and the consensus of these Bible scholars is based upon the writings of the Apostolic Church Fathers. Not what is is the Bible.

<Ahem> Talmud.

 

[coconut theology]

Revelation 1:10:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 1:10 εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος

Rev 1:10 I wasG1096 inG1722 the SpiritG4151 onG1722 theG3588 Lord'sG2960 day,G2250 andG2532 heardG191 behindG3694 meG3450 a greatG3173 voice,G5456 asG5613 of a trumpet,G4536

Rev 1:10 εγενομηνG1096 V-2ADI-1S ενG1722 PREP πνευματιG4151 N-DSN ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF κυριακηG2960 A-DSF ημεραG2250 N-DSF καιG2532 CONJ ηκουσαG191 V-AAI-1S οπισωG3694 ADV μουG1473 P-1GS φωνηνG5456 N-ASF μεγαληνG3173 A-ASF ωςG5613 ADV σαλπιγγοςG4536 N-GSF​

The word "κυριακη" (translit. "kuriake") is an Adjective - Dative - Singular - Feminine. This means it is being used as a 'possessive' ("of", see 1 Corinthians 11:20, "the Lord's supper"), which means the "day" in context belongs to "the Lord". It is literally "the Lord's (belonging to) day". This means, that the "day" in context is uniquely "the Lord's" out of all the 7 days of the week, for the day under consideration is that which exists within the week, as a day which repeats weekly. This is extremely important, as those who incorrectly assume it to mean "the first [day] of the week" in lieu of Jesus' resurrection, cannot get a weekly occurrence out of a one-time event, in fulfilment of typology of the Firstfruit/Wavesheaf in Leviticus 23:9-14, as made known in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23..

This is not as the phrase "day of the Lord" (ἡμέρα κυρίου) which is written in the genitive masculine case (see 2 Peter 3:10, etc, and also so called septuaginta uses).

In Latin, we see it similarly used in Exodus 20 (Latin is without the definite article, as Latin does not use definite articles):

Rev 1:10 fui in spiritu in dominica die et audivi post me vocem magnam tamquam tubae

Exo 20:8 memento ut diem sabbati sanctifices
Exo 20:9 sex diebus operaberis et facies omnia opera tua
Exo 20:10 septimo autem die sabbati Domini Dei tui non facies omne opus tu et filius tuus et filia tua servus tuus et ancilla tua iumentum tuum et advena qui est intra portas tuas
Exo 20:11 sex enim diebus fecit Dominus caelum et terram et mare et omnia quae in eis sunt et requievit in die septimo idcirco benedixit Dominus diei sabbati et sanctificavit eum
​

Which is akin to Genesis' "God's day":

Gen 2:1 igitur perfecti sunt caeli et terra et omnis ornatus eorum
Gen 2:2 conplevitque Deus die septimo opus suum quod fecerat et requievit die septimo ab universo opere quod patrarat
Gen 2:3 et benedixit diei septimo et sanctificavit illum quia in ipso cessaverat ab omni opere suo quod creavit Deus ut faceret
​

Whereas the differing apocalyptic day, "the day of the Lord" in Latin is "dies Domini" as in Zephaniah 1:14:

Zep 1:14 iuxta est dies Domini magnus iuxta et velox nimis vox diei Domini amara tribulabitur ibi fortis
​

In Isaiah 58:13, we read of a "day" that "the Lord" specifically calls "my day":

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:​

In many translations of Isaiah 58:13 we read that the 7th day, the sabbath of the Lord, is said to be "the Lord's holy day", with the word holy being another adjective, while the "Lord's" is possessive. - /Isaiah 58:13 - Bible Gateway

Thus when reading Isaiah 58:13 with simple pronoun substitution, it would read "... the ... [Lord's] day ...", just as it does in Exodus 20:8-11.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

In Genesis we see why this day is uniquely "Gods'", or "the Lord's" day, for in it God rested. This is the reason Jesus could say:

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.​

For in that He created in Genesis, and rested, Colossians 1:16.

Further, we can see some honest persons, among the many commentators that like to simply assume their apriori into the text, or to place future definition back into the text, from non-scriptural materials.

Peter Pett's commentary makes this accurate note:

"... Sunday is not called ‘the Lord’s day’ (he kyriake hemera) anywhere in Scripture ..." .​

Dr. Thomas Constable likewise states the same truth:

"... The New Testament writers never called Sunday the Lord"s day elsewhere in Scripture. ..." .​

Richard Chenevix Trench has stated on record, and accurately that:

"... “Some have assumed, from this passage, that ἡμέρα κυριακή was a designation of Sunday already familiar among Christians. This, however, seems a mistake ..." .
​

Likewise, Foy E Wallace states:

"... It is not a reference to the first day of the week ..." .​

 

[IndigoChild5559]

<Ahem> Talmud.

um, no, not the talmud. I stand by what I wrote.

 

[sojourner]

um, no, not the talmud. I stand by what I wrote.

The Talmud is commentary by theologians of the Faith and, I believe, taken with much authority. For Xy, the Bible is not the only authority. The apostles’ teaching is also held in high authoritative regard. The teaching says that The Lord’s Day is the first day of the week. That’s good enough for me.

 

[sojourner]

The most Holy spirit filled person in all of scripture, keeps the 7th day the Sabbath, having the eternal covenant in His Heart, the Ten Commandments, the Law of Love, the perfect character of God

Of course he did. He was Jewish.

 

[sojourner]

Revelation 1:10:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 1:10 εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος

Rev 1:10 I wasG1096 inG1722 the SpiritG4151 onG1722 theG3588 Lord'sG2960 day,G2250 andG2532 heardG191 behindG3694 meG3450 a greatG3173 voice,G5456 asG5613 of a trumpet,G4536

Rev 1:10 εγενομηνG1096 V-2ADI-1S ενG1722 PREP πνευματιG4151 N-DSN ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF κυριακηG2960 A-DSF ημεραG2250 N-DSF καιG2532 CONJ ηκουσαG191 V-AAI-1S οπισωG3694 ADV μουG1473 P-1GS φωνηνG5456 N-ASF μεγαληνG3173 A-ASF ωςG5613 ADV σαλπιγγοςG4536 N-GSF​

The word "κυριακη" (translit. "kuriake") is an Adjective - Dative - Singular - Feminine. This means it is being used as a 'possessive' ("of", see 1 Corinthians 11:20, "the Lord's supper"), which means the "day" in context belongs to "the Lord". It is literally "the Lord's (belonging to) day". This means, that the "day" in context is uniquely "the Lord's" out of all the 7 days of the week, for the day under consideration is that which exists within the week, as a day which repeats weekly. This is extremely important, as those who incorrectly assume it to mean "the first [day] of the week" in lieu of Jesus' resurrection, cannot get a weekly occurrence out of a one-time event, in fulfilment of typology of the Firstfruit/Wavesheaf in Leviticus 23:9-14, as made known in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23..

This is not as the phrase "day of the Lord" (ἡμέρα κυρίου) which is written in the genitive masculine case (see 2 Peter 3:10, etc, and also so called septuaginta uses).

In Latin, we see it similarly used in Exodus 20 (Latin is without the definite article, as Latin does not use definite articles):

Rev 1:10 fui in spiritu in dominica die et audivi post me vocem magnam tamquam tubae

Exo 20:8 memento ut diem sabbati sanctifices
Exo 20:9 sex diebus operaberis et facies omnia opera tua
Exo 20:10 septimo autem die sabbati Domini Dei tui non facies omne opus tu et filius tuus et filia tua servus tuus et ancilla tua iumentum tuum et advena qui est intra portas tuas
Exo 20:11 sex enim diebus fecit Dominus caelum et terram et mare et omnia quae in eis sunt et requievit in die septimo idcirco benedixit Dominus diei sabbati et sanctificavit eum
​

Which is akin to Genesis' "God's day":

Gen 2:1 igitur perfecti sunt caeli et terra et omnis ornatus eorum
Gen 2:2 conplevitque Deus die septimo opus suum quod fecerat et requievit die septimo ab universo opere quod patrarat
Gen 2:3 et benedixit diei septimo et sanctificavit illum quia in ipso cessaverat ab omni opere suo quod creavit Deus ut faceret
​

Whereas the differing apocalyptic day, "the day of the Lord" in Latin is "dies Domini" as in Zephaniah 1:14:

Zep 1:14 iuxta est dies Domini magnus iuxta et velox nimis vox diei Domini amara tribulabitur ibi fortis
​

In Isaiah 58:13, we read of a "day" that "the Lord" specifically calls "my day":

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:​

In many translations of Isaiah 58:13 we read that the 7th day, the sabbath of the Lord, is said to be "the Lord's holy day", with the word holy being another adjective, while the "Lord's" is possessive. - /Isaiah 58:13 - Bible Gateway

Thus when reading Isaiah 58:13 with simple pronoun substitution, it would read "... the ... [Lord's] day ...", just as it does in Exodus 20:8-11.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

In Genesis we see why this day is uniquely "Gods'", or "the Lord's" day, for in it God rested. This is the reason Jesus could say:

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.​

For in that He created in Genesis, and rested, Colossians 1:16.

Further, we can see some honest persons, among the many commentators that like to simply assume their apriori into the text, or to place future definition back into the text, from non-scriptural materials.

Peter Pett's commentary makes this accurate note:

"... Sunday is not called ‘the Lord’s day’ (he kyriake hemera) anywhere in Scripture ..." .​

Dr. Thomas Constable likewise states the same truth:

"... The New Testament writers never called Sunday the Lord"s day elsewhere in Scripture. ..." .​

Richard Chenevix Trench has stated on record, and accurately that:

"... “Some have assumed, from this passage, that ἡμέρα κυριακή was a designation of Sunday already familiar among Christians. This, however, seems a mistake ..." .
​

Likewise, Foy E Wallace states:

"... It is not a reference to the first day of the week ..." .​

You needn’t have gone to all that trouble. I’ve got much better commentaries than these.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Talmud is commentary by theologians of the Faith and, I believe, taken with much authority. For Xy, the Bible is not the only authority. The apostles’ teaching is also held in high authoritative regard. The teaching says that The Lord’s Day is the first day of the week. That’s good enough for me.

I'm not sure what your main point is. First, I'm Jewish, so I know what the Talmud is. And the Talmud is not concerned with Chrisitan ideas, such as the Lord's Day. The conversation was about the Lord's Day, so the Talmud doesn't really come into it.

The question was: Does the Christian New Testament state that the Lord's Day is on any particular day, such as the Shabbat or the eighth day? The answer is NO. To find out what day the Lord's Day is, you have to go to Christian documents that are not part of the Christian scriptures.

Ive said this so many times in this thread that I'm exasperated.

 

[sojourner]

I'm not sure what your main point is. First, I'm Jewish, so I know what the Talmud is. And the Talmud is not concerned with Chrisitan ideas, such as the Lord's Day. The conversation was about the Lord's Day, so the Talmud doesn't really come into it.

The question was: Does the Christian New Testament state that the Lord's Day is on any particular day, such as the Shabbat or the eighth day? The answer is NO. To find out what day the Lord's Day is, you have to go to Christian documents that are not part of the Christian scriptures.

Ive said this so many times in this thread that I'm exasperated.

My point was that Talmud is authoritative commentary for the Tanach, just as we Christians have authoritative commentary for the NT. The NT is part of the apostles’ teaching, just as extra-biblical material is part of the apostles’ teaching. The passage in Revelation is there snd it alludes to the Lord’s Day. Further complementary material asserts that the day mentioned was the first day of the week.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

My point was that Talmud is authoritative commentary for the Tanach, just as we Christians have authoritative commentary for the NT. The NT is part of the apostles’ teaching, just as extra-biblical material is part of the apostles’ teaching. The passage in Revelation is there snd it alludes to the Lord’s Day. Further complementary material asserts that the day mentioned was the first day of the week.

Okay I see what you are saying now (though you chose a roundabout way of saying it). Yes, I would agree.

However, I'm sure you realize there's a sizable number of Protestants who stick with the mantra that "If it's not in the Bible..." Those were the ones I was originally thinking of when I first engaged in this thread.

 

[coconut theology]

Of course he did. He was Jewish.

Is Christ in "you", the hope of glory?

 

[coconut theology]

Roman Catholicism says:

“...Now the Scriptures alone do not contain all the truths which a Christian is bound to believe, nor do they explicitly enjoin all the duties which he is obliged to practice. Not to mention other examples, is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify. ...” [The Faith Of Our Fathers “Being a Plain Exposition and Vindication of the Church Founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ” By James Cardinal Gibbons; Archbishop of Baltimore, Ninety-third Carefully Revised and Enlarged Edition; John Murphy Company; Publishers; Baltimore, MD. New York; R. & T. Washbourne, Ltd.; 10 Paternoster Row, London, and at Manchester.; Birmingham and Glascow; 1917; Chapter VIII [8]. The Church And The Bible; Online Pg 97, also side notation pagination as [089]] - http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27435/27435-pdf.pdf
​

This shows that Roman Catholicism acknowledges that Revelation 1:10 has nothing to do with sanctification of Sunday, as they say, "not ... a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday".

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Is Christ in "you", the hope of glory?

So you are SDA? Do you know Eugene Shubert? He is from down Texas way.

 

[coconut theology]

So you are SDA? Do you know Eugene Shubert? He is from down Texas way.

I am Seventh-day Adventist. I do not believe I have heard of E. S. before, though it is possible. Upon a bit of research, I see his name associated with Educate Truth, along with some other names I know, like uso Bob Ryan. I am not from Texas, so that may be the reason why. Anything I should know, you can always PM me, or if you want it in open forum, I am fine with that too, so long as it doesn't stray too far afield for too long from the OP.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am Seventh-day Adventist. I do not believe I have heard of E. S. before, though it is possible. Upon a bit of research, I see his name associated with Educate Truth, along with some other names I know, like uso Bob Ryan. I am not from Texas, so that may be the reason why. Anything I should know, you can always PM me, or if you want it in open forum, I am fine with that too, so long as it doesn't stray too far afield for too long from the OP.

Just curious. I met Eugene on another forum and I know he gets around.