Kanye West's "Christian" - "Sunday Service" - Jesus is King Album, Chick Fil-A & the Real Lord's Day

[coconut theology]

Just curious. I met Eugene on another forum and I know he gets around.

Ok, no worries then.

 

[sojourner]

Okay I see what you are saying now (though you chose a roundabout way of saying it). Yes, I would agree.

However, I'm sure you realize there's a sizable number of Protestants who stick with the mantra that "If it's not in the Bible..." Those were the ones I was originally thinking of when I first engaged in this thread.

Right. Sorry about that! Oh yes, they’re completely ignoring the directive to “continue in the Apostles’ teaching.” Somewhere we’ve gotten a clutch of seventh-dayers on here, and they’re all biblical literalists. Nasty habit, that.

 

[sojourner]

Is Christ in "you", the hope of glory?

Not germane to my post.

 

[sojourner]

Roman Catholicism says:

“...Now the Scriptures alone do not contain all the truths which a Christian is bound to believe, nor do they explicitly enjoin all the duties which he is obliged to practice. Not to mention other examples, is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify. ...” [The Faith Of Our Fathers “Being a Plain Exposition and Vindication of the Church Founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ” By James Cardinal Gibbons; Archbishop of Baltimore, Ninety-third Carefully Revised and Enlarged Edition; John Murphy Company; Publishers; Baltimore, MD. New York; R. & T. Washbourne, Ltd.; 10 Paternoster Row, London, and at Manchester.; Birmingham and Glascow; 1917; Chapter VIII [8]. The Church And The Bible; Online Pg 97, also side notation pagination as [089]] - http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27435/27435-pdf.pdf
​

This shows that Roman Catholicism acknowledges that Revelation 1:10 has nothing to do with sanctification of Sunday, as they say, "not ... a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday".

Yes, you ignored the part above where it says the texts alone do not contain all the truths...

And my argument wasn’t that the Bible “authorizes” Sunday worship. That’s a term you’ve inserted; don’t change my argument. I said that the passage in Revelation alludes to the first day of the week, and that most reliable scholars agree that “the Lord’s Day,” in that context, refers to Sunday. Furthermore, I argued that (in agreement with the document you’re using to validate your point) the apostles’ teaching says that every Christian is “obliged to sanctify Sunday.”

 

[coconut theology]

... Oh yes, they’re completely ignoring the directive to “continue in the Apostles’ teaching.” Somewhere we’ve gotten a clutch of seventh-dayers on here, and they’re all biblical literalists. Nasty habit, that.

Apostolic Constitutions:

“... THE RECITAL OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, AND AFTER WHAT MANNER THEY DO HERE PRESCRIBE TO US.

XXXVI. Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God,—to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or dæmons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ. Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands. Reject every unlawful lust, everything destructive to men, and all anger. Honour thy parents, as the authors of thy being. Love thy neighbour as thyself. Communicate the necessaries of life to the needy. Avoid swearing falsely, and swearing often, and in vain; for thou shalt not be held guiltless. Do not appear before the priests empty, and offer thy free-will offerings continually. Moreover, do not leave the church of Christ; but go thither in the morning before all thy work, and again meet there in the evening, to return thanks to God that He has preserved thy life. Be diligent, and constant, and laborious in thy calling. Offer to the Lord thy free-will offerings; for says He, “Honour the Lord with the fruit of thy honest labours.” [2754] If thou art not able to cast anything considerable into the Corban, [2755] yet at least bestow upon the strangers one, or two, or five mites. “Lay up to thyself heavenly treasure, which neither the moth nor thieves can destroy.” [2756] And in doing this, do not judge thy bishop, or any of thy neighbours among the laity; for if thou judge thy brother, thou becomest a judge, without being constituted such by anybody, for the priests are only entrusted with the power of judging. For to them it is said, “Judge righteous judgment;” [2757] and again “Approve yourselves to be exact money-changers.” [2758] For to you this is not entrusted; for, on the contrary, it is said to those who are not of the dignity of magistrates or ministers: “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged.” [2759] ...” - Apostolic Constitutions, Book VII (7), Chapter XIV (14) - Of the First and Last Times of the World, by Philip Schaff; ANF07. Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily, and Liturgies; pages 317-318 (PDF 337-338) - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....ers_Of_The_Third_And_Fourth_Centuries,_EN.pdf​

 

[coconut theology]

Right. Sorry about that! Oh yes, they’re completely ignoring the directive to “continue in the Apostles’ teaching.” ...

Paul, the Apostle on the Ten Commandments in the life of the biblical Christian:

The TEN COMMANDMENTS...

[01.] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) [1 Corinthians 8:5] But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him. [1 Corinthians 8:6]

[02.] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. [Acts 15:20] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. [Acts 17:29] Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. [1 Corinthians 10:7] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. [1 Corinthians 10:14] Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. [1 Corinthians 12:2] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [2 Corinthians 6:16] For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; [1 Thessalonians 1:9] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [Galatians 5:20] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [Galatians 5:21] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. [Ephesians 5:5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: [Colossians 3:5]

[03.] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [Romans 2:24] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. [Colossians 3:8] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. [Ephesians 5:4] Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed. [1 Timothy 6:1]

[04.] But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. [Acts 13:14] And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, [Ye] men [and] brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. [Acts 13:15] Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with [his] hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. [Acts 13:16] And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath [the Gentiles asked to hear the message on Sabbath, the 7th day, for more than Jews kept the Holy Day of the Lord]. [Acts 13:42] And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city [“Jews and Gentiles”] together to hear the word of God. [Acts 13:44] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day [for there were many Strangers seeking God and kept Sabbath, but were not yet circumcised to become a full Jew, see Isaiah 56:6]. [Acts 15:21] And on the sabbath we [We, being Paul and Luke [a converted gentile physician/historian]] went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made [Prayer being made on the Holy Sabbath out in nature]; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither]. [Acts 16:13] And Paul, as his manner was [just as Jesus], went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, [compare Luke 4:16] [Acts 17:2] And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. [Paul kept Sabbath every week for 1 ½ years (78 est. Sabbaths), see Acts 18:11 in a house connected to the Synagogue, the next best thing after removing himself from the Synagogue, see Acts 18:7, Jesus also foretold that many would be evicted from them, see John 16:2, but they continued to keep the 7th Day Sabbath of the 4th Commandment in homes, out in nature, etc.] [Acts 18:4] For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. [Hebrews 4:4] And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest. [Hebrews 4:5] Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: [Hebrews 4:6] Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. [Hebrews 4:7] For if Jesus [Jesus & Joshua] had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. [Hebrews 4:8] There remaineth [Apoleipo, (passive voice) to be left behind for others, remain unchanged since the foundation of the world, be reserved, in this case not meaning “abandoned”] therefore [ie, because of the already given argument and example of the wilderness in Hebrews 3-4, in that they (Israel; the first generation people) entered not into the promised land because of unbelief and through unbelief failed to keep the commandments of God] a rest [Sabbatismos, literally keeping Sabbath] to the people of God [ie. Christians, Spiritual Israel are to keep the 7th Day Sabbath, for as we enter into the rest given by Christ Jesus, we are then able to cease from our sins and works to obtain salvation, abide in Him, and we trust/rest in Him and obey Him when He asks us, "if ye love me keep my commandments" as is found in Exodus 20:6 and John 14:15]. [Hebrews 4:9] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. [Hebrews 4:10] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. [Hebrews 4:11]

[05.] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. [Ephesians 6:1] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise; ) [Ephesians 6:2] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. [Ephesians 6:3] Children, obey [your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. [Colossians 3:20]

[06.] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [Romans 1:29] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [Romans 1:32] For this, ... Thou shalt not kill, ... and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p]

[07.] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery...and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. [Colossians 3:18] Husbands, love [your] wives, and be not bitter against them. [Colossians 3:19]

[08.] "...a man should not steal, dost thou steal?" [Romans 2:21;p] "For this, ... Thou shalt not steal,...and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p] Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [Ephesians 4:28]

[09.] "...Thou shalt not bear false witness...and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [Colossians 3:9]

[10.] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [Romans 1:29] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [Romans 1:32] What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. [Romans 7:7] "For this, ... Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; [Ephesians 5:3] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: [Colossians 3:5] "[Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness..." [Hebrews 13:5;p]

 

[coconut theology]

Not germane to my post.

It is actually very "germane", since in Christ Jesus is no sin (1 John 3:5), and Christ Jesus does not ever commit sin (1 Peter 2:22), and sin is the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:11), thus when Christ Jesus is in a person, they also do not commit sin (1 John 3:9), for the command to us is 'do not sin' (1 John 2:1; Ephesians 4:26; 1 Corinthians 15:34).

Therefore, the question remains (presently unanswered in writing, but is answered never-the-less as loudly as if you had said it through a PA system).

In the Heart of Christ Jesus (who Himself is the Ark of God (unlike that false and perverted theology of Roman Catholicism and its 'mary-hyperdulia', which thieves this position from Jesus Christ, taking His place, being anti-christos)), is the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, the everlasting covenant, Psalms 40:8. Jesus is the perfect model of the walking Christian (1 John 2:6), the perfect "man" (1 Timothy 2:5; 1 Corinthians 15:44-46).

If your theology truly is, Jesus was Jewish, and this being your foundation for refusing the specific and holy commandment (2 Peter 2:21; Exodus 20:8-11), you have many more things to reject in your walk, unless you would practice hypocrisy and do those "jewish" things that you are actually saying do not pertain unto you.

 

[coconut theology]

... that most reliable scholars ...

I noticed you said "most" (which automatically implies, not all, which is what I demonstrated), and then added "reliable" (no true scotsman, which mean that any position not in agreement with your own is therefore automatically excluded). Are you saying the 4 persons I cited are not reliable? If you do, this also does damage to your position, in that the other things they say, are said by the others you mention, and so to say that they are unreliable in total is to undercut your argument. Are you suggesting that they are reliable only in part? Are you suggesting that commentaries are a wax nose? Or are you suggesting that commentaries may be picked and chosen from at ones own discretion, which in effect shows that it is merely attempting to prove an already held apriori, and thus circular reasoning?

 

[sojourner]

Apostolic Constitutions:

“... THE RECITAL OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, AND AFTER WHAT MANNER THEY DO HERE PRESCRIBE TO US.

XXXVI. Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God,—to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or dæmons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ. Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands. Reject every unlawful lust, everything destructive to men, and all anger. Honour thy parents, as the authors of thy being. Love thy neighbour as thyself. Communicate the necessaries of life to the needy. Avoid swearing falsely, and swearing often, and in vain; for thou shalt not be held guiltless. Do not appear before the priests empty, and offer thy free-will offerings continually. Moreover, do not leave the church of Christ; but go thither in the morning before all thy work, and again meet there in the evening, to return thanks to God that He has preserved thy life. Be diligent, and constant, and laborious in thy calling. Offer to the Lord thy free-will offerings; for says He, “Honour the Lord with the fruit of thy honest labours.” [2754] If thou art not able to cast anything considerable into the Corban, [2755] yet at least bestow upon the strangers one, or two, or five mites. “Lay up to thyself heavenly treasure, which neither the moth nor thieves can destroy.” [2756] And in doing this, do not judge thy bishop, or any of thy neighbours among the laity; for if thou judge thy brother, thou becomest a judge, without being constituted such by anybody, for the priests are only entrusted with the power of judging. For to them it is said, “Judge righteous judgment;” [2757] and again “Approve yourselves to be exact money-changers.” [2758] For to you this is not entrusted; for, on the contrary, it is said to those who are not of the dignity of magistrates or ministers: “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged.” [2759] ...” - Apostolic Constitutions, Book VII (7), Chapter XIV (14) - Of the First and Last Times of the World, by Philip Schaff; ANF07. Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily, and Liturgies; pages 317-318 (PDF 337-338) - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....ers_Of_The_Third_And_Fourth_Centuries,_EN.pdf​

That apostles' teaching means "sabbath" as the first day -- not the seventh. Sorry. Fail.

 

[sojourner]

Paul, the Apostle on the Ten Commandments in the life of the biblical Christian:

The TEN COMMANDMENTS...

[01.] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) [1 Corinthians 8:5] But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him. [1 Corinthians 8:6]

[02.] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. [Acts 15:20] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. [Acts 17:29] Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. [1 Corinthians 10:7] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. [1 Corinthians 10:14] Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. [1 Corinthians 12:2] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [2 Corinthians 6:16] For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; [1 Thessalonians 1:9] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [Galatians 5:20] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [Galatians 5:21] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. [Ephesians 5:5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: [Colossians 3:5]

[03.] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [Romans 2:24] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. [Colossians 3:8] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. [Ephesians 5:4] Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed. [1 Timothy 6:1]

[04.] But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. [Acts 13:14] And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, [Ye] men [and] brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. [Acts 13:15] Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with [his] hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. [Acts 13:16] And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath [the Gentiles asked to hear the message on Sabbath, the 7th day, for more than Jews kept the Holy Day of the Lord]. [Acts 13:42] And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city [“Jews and Gentiles”] together to hear the word of God. [Acts 13:44] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day [for there were many Strangers seeking God and kept Sabbath, but were not yet circumcised to become a full Jew, see Isaiah 56:6]. [Acts 15:21] And on the sabbath we [We, being Paul and Luke [a converted gentile physician/historian]] went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made [Prayer being made on the Holy Sabbath out in nature]; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither]. [Acts 16:13] And Paul, as his manner was [just as Jesus], went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, [compare Luke 4:16] [Acts 17:2] And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. [Paul kept Sabbath every week for 1 ½ years (78 est. Sabbaths), see Acts 18:11 in a house connected to the Synagogue, the next best thing after removing himself from the Synagogue, see Acts 18:7, Jesus also foretold that many would be evicted from them, see John 16:2, but they continued to keep the 7th Day Sabbath of the 4th Commandment in homes, out in nature, etc.] [Acts 18:4] For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. [Hebrews 4:4] And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest. [Hebrews 4:5] Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: [Hebrews 4:6] Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. [Hebrews 4:7] For if Jesus [Jesus & Joshua] had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. [Hebrews 4:8] There remaineth [Apoleipo, (passive voice) to be left behind for others, remain unchanged since the foundation of the world, be reserved, in this case not meaning “abandoned”] therefore [ie, because of the already given argument and example of the wilderness in Hebrews 3-4, in that they (Israel; the first generation people) entered not into the promised land because of unbelief and through unbelief failed to keep the commandments of God] a rest [Sabbatismos, literally keeping Sabbath] to the people of God [ie. Christians, Spiritual Israel are to keep the 7th Day Sabbath, for as we enter into the rest given by Christ Jesus, we are then able to cease from our sins and works to obtain salvation, abide in Him, and we trust/rest in Him and obey Him when He asks us, "if ye love me keep my commandments" as is found in Exodus 20:6 and John 14:15]. [Hebrews 4:9] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. [Hebrews 4:10] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. [Hebrews 4:11]

[05.] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. [Ephesians 6:1] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise; ) [Ephesians 6:2] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. [Ephesians 6:3] Children, obey [your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. [Colossians 3:20]

[06.] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [Romans 1:29] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [Romans 1:32] For this, ... Thou shalt not kill, ... and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p]

[07.] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery...and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. [Colossians 3:18] Husbands, love [your] wives, and be not bitter against them. [Colossians 3:19]

[08.] "...a man should not steal, dost thou steal?" [Romans 2:21;p] "For this, ... Thou shalt not steal,...and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p] Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [Ephesians 4:28]

[09.] "...Thou shalt not bear false witness...and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [Colossians 3:9]

[10.] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [Romans 1:29] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [Romans 1:32] What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. [Romans 7:7] "For this, ... Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9;p] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; [Ephesians 5:3] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: [Colossians 3:5] "[Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness..." [Hebrews 13:5;p]

You will note that Paul observed the 7th day Sabbath for one and one half years, implying that, after that, he did not. The spoken of are "Judaizers," so of course they would have wanted to celebrate Shabbat on the 7th day. It's well-known that the proto-church continued to meet in the temple and at Synagogue. None of this refutes the ongoing apostles' teaching to switch to Sunday.

 

[sojourner]

It is actually very "germane", since in Christ Jesus is no sin

1) No, it isn't. At all. 2) False. Even you (gasp!) sin. Unless, of course, you're admitting that Jesus is not "in you?"

and sin is the transgression of the Law

OK, but what does that mean? I could give you a couple of good sermons on that very topic, but, y'know... the whole "pearls before swine" thing... makes it highly unworth my time.

thus when Christ Jesus is in a person, they also do not commit sin

Uh, no. "Christ within one" is a process -- not an event.

In the Heart of Christ Jesus (who Himself is the Ark of God (unlike that false and perverted theology of Roman Catholicism and its 'mary-hyperdulia', which thieves this position from Jesus Christ, taking His place, being anti-christos))

I have no idea what you're talking about here. this is all bias and opinion. Plus I'm not Catholic, so there's that little nugget.

Jesus is the perfect model of the walking Christian

OK. Again, relatively meaningless to the discussion.

you have many more things to reject in your walk, unless you would practice hypocrisy and do those "jewish" things that you are actually saying do not pertain unto you.

Nope. One keeps the Law in a manner that is appropriate for the circumstances of the person. Faith changes; righteousness also changes as we learn and grow. The Church is a living organism -- not a museum.

I noticed you said "most" (which automatically implies, not all, which is what I demonstrated.

Generalizations are dangerous, and usually wrong.

(no true scotsman, which mean that any position not in agreement with your own is therefore automatically excluded).

Nope. There are standards for exegetical work. Some of those folks are reputable, in that they have no theological or positional axe to grind. Some are not, and their work is colored by bias.

If you do, this also does damage to your position, in that the other things they say, are said by the others you mention, and so to say that they are unreliable in total is to undercut your argument. Are you suggesting that they are reliable only in part? Are you suggesting that commentaries are a wax nose? Or are you suggesting that commentaries may be picked and chosen from at ones own discretion, which in effect shows that it is merely attempting to prove an already held apriori, and thus circular reasoning?

My, my! Aren't WE the Little Logician? Again, you're forgetting the peer-review process, and the fact that there are always different "camps," because exegetical work isn't absolute, like mathematics. Everyone picks a "camp." I've picked mine; you've picked yours. I disagree with yours, and there's no logical fallacy in that. You would disregard mine, as well, which means that your "argument" here would serve to condemn your position as well.

I've just spot-checked 7 commentaries from diverse scholastic "backgrounds." They all agree. In fact, in three of them, they all go on to say that "the Lord's Day" was an early Christian protest in which the Sabbath was moved to Sunday (known as "Emperor's Day) in order to protest the "divinity" of the Roman Emperor. This sort of protest was a well-known tactic of the early Christians. In fact, the earlies extant piece of Christian art is a bas-relief of a scene depicting Jesus with disciples. It's a blatant rip-off of an earlier, Roman bas-relief of Augustus. In fact, many scholars posit that the whole "miraculous birth" narrative in later Gospels (Mark has no birth narrative) mirrors the "miraculous birth" narratives of Augustus. The early Church used the avatar of Jesus to supplant the avatar of Augustus in the minds of early Gentiles.

One commentary says this: The Revelation as Liturgy (this is corroborated by other commentaries). It goes on to quote Justin Martyr from the year 138: "On the day named after the sun, we hold a meeting in one place for all who live in the cities or the country nearby." (First Apology, 65-67)
the commentary goes on to say that "The Revelation anticipates these patterns of worship. It [Revelation] comes alive as a book of worship. John was drawing on known liturgical traditions of the churches." (Chalice Introduction to the New Testament, Dennis E. Smith, ed., Judith Hoch Wray, pp. 312-313.)

There is just much very compelling evidence that the passage refers to Sunday.

 

[coconut theology]

That apostles' teaching means "sabbath" as the first day -- not the seventh. Sorry. Fail.

So you are saying that "the Lord's day" is the "sabbath" afterall?

 

[sojourner]

It is actually very "germane", since in Christ Jesus is no sin

1) No, it isn't. At all. 2) False. Even you (gasp!) sin. Unless, of course, you're admitting that Jesus is not "in you?"

and sin is the transgression of the Law

OK, but what does that mean? I could give you a couple of good sermons on that very topic, but, y'know... the whole "pearls before swine" thing... makes it highly unworth my time.

thus when Christ Jesus is in a person, they also do not commit sin

Uh, no. "Christ within one" is a process -- not an event.

In the Heart of Christ Jesus (who Himself is the Ark of God (unlike that false and perverted theology of Roman Catholicism and its 'mary-hyperdulia', which thieves this position from Jesus Christ, taking His place, being anti-christos))

I have no idea what you're talking about here. this is all bias and opinion. Plus I'm not Catholic, so there's that little nugget.

Jesus is the perfect model of the walking Christian

OK. Again, relatively meaningless to the discussion.

you have many more things to reject in your walk, unless you would practice hypocrisy and do those "jewish" things that you are actually saying do not pertain unto you.

Nope. One keeps the Law in a manner that is appropriate for the circumstances of the person. Faith changes; righteousness also changes as we learn and grow. The Church is a living organism -- not a museum.

I noticed you said "most" (which automatically implies, not all, which is what I demonstrated.

Generalizations are dangerous, and usually wrong.

(no true scotsman, which mean that any position not in agreement with your own is therefore automatically excluded).

Nope. There are standards for exegetical work. Some of those folks are reputable, in that they have no theological or positional axe to grind. Some are not, and their work is colored by bias.

If you do, this also does damage to your position, in that the other things they say, are said by the others you mention, and so to say that they are unreliable in total is to undercut your argument. Are you suggesting that they are reliable only in part? Are you suggesting that commentaries are a wax nose? Or are you suggesting that commentaries may be picked and chosen from at ones own discretion, which in effect shows that it is merely attempting to prove an already held apriori, and thus circular reasoning?

My, my! Aren't WE the Little Logician? Again, you're forgetting the peer-review process, and the fact that there are always different "camps," because exegetical work isn't absolute, like mathematics. Everyone picks a "camp." I've picked mine; you've picked yours. I disagree with yours, and there's no logical fallacy in that. You would disregard mine, as well, which means that your "argument" here would serve to condemn your position as well.

I've just spot-checked 7 commentaries from diverse scholastic "backgrounds." They all agree. In fact, in three of them, they all go on to say that "the Lord's Day" was an early Christian protest in which the Sabbath was moved to Sunday (known as "Emperor's Day) in order to protest the "divinity" of the Roman Emperor. This sort of protest was a well-known tactic of the early Christians. In fact, the earlies extant piece of Christian art is a bas-relief of a scene depicting Jesus with disciples. It's a blatant rip-off of an earlier, Roman bas-relief of Augustus. In fact, many scholars posit that the whole "miraculous birth" narrative in later Gospels (Mark has no birth narrative) mirrors the "miraculous birth" narratives of Augustus. The early Church used the avatar of Jesus to supplant the avatar of Augustus in the minds of early Gentiles.

One commentary says this: The Revelation as Liturgy (this is corroborated by other commentaries). It goes on to quote Justin Martyr from the year 138: "On the day named after the sun, we hold a meeting in one place for all who live in the cities or the country nearby." (First Apology, 65-67)
the commentary goes on to say that "The Revelation anticipates these patterns of worship. It [Revelation] comes alive as a book of worship. John was drawing on known liturgical traditions of the churches." (Chalice Introduction to the New Testament, Dennis E. Smith, ed., Judith Hoch Wray, pp. 312-313.)

There is just much very compelling evidence that the passage refers to Sunday.

So you are saying that "the Lord's day" is the "sabbath" afterall?

No. We don't observe Shabbat. I doubt you do either. Shabbat is a specific, Jewish ritual with specific implications. We do "set aside" Sunday as "the Lord's Day." That has a different meaning than Shabbat. We believe Shabbat was part of the old covenant God made with the Jews. Jesus established a new covenant with us, part of which is the Resurrection (which happened on the first day [Sunday]). Shabbat is the culmination of creation (life). Resurrection is the culmination of eternal life (the new creation). Both days celebrate life. Both days celebrate acts of God in creation.

 

[coconut theology]

Justin Martyr from the year 138: "On the day named after the sun, we hold a meeting in one place for all who live in the cities or the country nearby." (First Apology, 65-67)

Yet, Justin Martyr is known to be a forgery - http://heidiheiks.com/pdf/Contributors Documents/William Shea/Justin_Martyr_forgery.pdf

Just like the "Donation of Constantine", Pseudo Isidoran Decretals, etc. Roman Catholicism has a vast history of forgeries, which also include Sinaiticus:

 

[sojourner]

So you are saying that "the Lord's day" is the "sabbath" afterall?

No. We don't observe Shabbat. I doubt you do either. Shabbat is a specific, Jewish ritual with specific implications. We do "set aside" Sunday as "the Lord's Day." That has a different meaning than Shabbat. We believe Shabbat was part of the old covenant God made with the Jews. Jesus established a new covenant with us, part of which is the Resurrection (which happened on the first day [Sunday]). Shabbat is the culmination of creation (life). Resurrection is the culmination of eternal life (the new creation). Both days celebrate life. Both days celebrate acts of God in creation.

 

[sojourner]

Yet, Justin Martyr is known to be a forgery - http://heidiheiks.com/pdf/Contributors Documents/William Shea/Justin_Martyr_forgery.pdf

No it's not. The linked article is from an Adventist journal and, therefore, to be taken with a grain of scholastic salt. Shea is a biased hack.

 

[sojourner]

Just like the "Donation of Constantine", Pseudo Isidoran Deretals, etc. Roman Catholicism has a vast history of forgeries, which also include Sinaiticus:

An edit from your most recent post. Your post is full of it. If I didn't know it was meant to be serious, I'd be laughing. Cults normally engage in a lot of conspiracy theory type codswallop.

 

[coconut theology]

You will note that Paul observed the 7th day Sabbath for one and one half years, implying that, after that, he did not. ...

The Bible tells us why Paul was no longer keeping sabbath in that location (Corinth; Acts 18:1) after 1 1/2 years.

Act 18:11 And he continued there (Corinth; Acts 18:1) a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Act 18:18 And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.​

Afterwards, Paul left. The text doesn't say that Paul stopped keeping sabbath. In fact, following the pattern in previous chapters, we see Paul kept sabbath in every location, until he left that location, and then kept sabbath in the new location, see Acts 17, wherein Paul kept the sabbath in Thessalonica for three weeks, until he was secretly expedited out of the area:

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.​

Then we see Paul in the new area of Acts 18, keeping sabbath there, until he left to go to a new area.

In fact, Acts 17:2 is a direct parallel to Jesus Christ in Luke 4:16:

Luk 4:16 And he [Jesus] came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
​

In both instances, we see continued, and continuing sabbath keeping, after the event, for to not do so is sin. Jesus preached the Gospel in Luke 4, under the power of the Holy Spirit, and so did Paul. Each demonstrates that the Everlasting Gospel includes obedience to the 4th Commandment, as per Revelation 14:6-7,12 also state, citing Exodus 20:11.

Paul even wrote the book of Hebrews, and chapters 3-4 are direct instruction on continued sabbath-keeping, see Hebrews 4:9, for instance.

 

[coconut theology]

...Shea is a biased hack.

Evidence against his evidence?

 

[sojourner]

The Bible tells us why Paul was no longer keeping sabbath in that location (Corinth; Acts 18:1) after 1 1/2 years.

Act 18:11 And he continued there (Corinth; Acts 18:1) a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Act 18:18 And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.​

Afterwards, Paul left. The text doesn't say that Paul stopped keeping sabbath. In fact, following the pattern in previous chapters, we see Paul kept sabbath in every location, until he left that location, and then kept sabbath in the new location, see Acts 17, wherein Paul kept the sabbath in Thessalonica for three weeks, until he was secretly expedited out of the area:

Well, of course, as I've already pointed out. but none of that negates the Christians also meeting on the first day of the week to share Eucharist.