Karma and the Mandate of Heaven

[Heyo]

OK, you are an atheist or agnostic? But I don't expect someone who does not believe in a Creator, to believe in such a thing as Karma either.
Actually, I don't assign blame either, it is just a result of an action as in physics - action/reaction.

I don't believe in what is usually understood as karma in the west. I do believe in cause and effect. I.e. we live in a world we create ourselves - though individual actions only have a small effect and the results can appear years later and in unexpected circumstances.

 

[Alien826]

I don't think karma is supposed to operate at anything but the individual level, is it? At least that's what I've always heard and is confirmed by a quick search. It makes sense (I mean it's internally consistent) only if you include a belief in reincarnation though.

 

[danieldemol]

Actually, I don't assign blame either, it is just a result of an action as in physics - action/reaction

But you assigned blame to the Emperor in the OP in my opinion.

Also karma is not the result of an action/reaction like physics - if that were the case that karma were comparable to reaction instead of gravity pulling you down the instant you walk off a cliff it would have to refrain from pulling you down to your death when you walked off a cliff then randomly pull you down to your death later on when you were walking on stable flat ground - then reaction would become comparable to your reincarnation scenario where people are not punished at the instant of their misdeeds but punished later on randomly in a different life even if they are doing good deeds in my view.

With action re-action causal link can be established, however with karma no such causal link can be established as I see it.

The principle of karma as you have explained it also ignores the far more parsimonious explanation of natural (non karma) causes for events in my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

I don't think karma is supposed to operate at anything but the individual level, is it? At least that's what I've always heard and is confirmed by a quick search. It makes sense (I mean it's internally consistent) only if you include a belief in reincarnation though.

I dont agree that it is internally consistent with a belief in reincarnation, see my example about gravity in post #23

 

[Alien826]

I dont agree that it is internally consistent with a belief in reincarnation, see my example about gravity in post #23

I don't think your post presented a correct picture of karma. It's essentially cause and effect. If you lie then eventually you will suffer from it. It may not be true, but I do think it hangs together when you throw in reincarnation, because that explains why bad people can thrive and good people seeming not be rewarded in this life.

 

[danieldemol]

I don't think your post presented a correct picture of karma. It's essentially cause and effect. If you lie then eventually you will suffer from it. It may not be true, but I do think it hangs together when you throw in reincarnation, because that explains why bad people can thrive and good people seeming not be rewarded in this life.

Can you think of any cause where the effect is distributed randomly with no correlation to the cause?
For example if you strike a match in the presence of fuel and oxygen assembled will the fire occur just randomly when they are no longer assembled?

 

[soulsurvivor]

With action re-action causal link can be established, however with karma no such causal link can be established as I see it.

This is true. The reaction in Karma is usually delayed and could stretch across lifetimes. We mere mortals cannot establish the link, but I am sure the Gods can establish some causal links. When you and I meet our maker in the hereafter, we should definitely tell him about the issues and ask him to fix them.

 

[soulsurvivor]

I don't think karma is supposed to operate at anything but the individual level, is it? At least that's what I've always heard and is confirmed by a quick search. It makes sense (I mean it's internally consistent) only if you include a belief in reincarnation though.

There is individual karma and there is group karma. Group karma can be that of a nation or a region or a race or even a family.

https://www.unm.edu/~rhayes/Lecture10.pdf

 

[danieldemol]

This is true. The reaction in Karma is usually delayed and could stretch across lifetimes. We mere mortals cannot establish the link, but I am sure the Gods can establish some causal links. When you and I meet our maker in the hereafter, we should definitely tell him about the issues and ask him to fix them.

I'm expecting that if God is like a human that we can meet and converse with God will laugh and say, "karma?! No such thing exists"

 

[Heyo]

Can you think of any cause where the effect is distributed randomly with no correlation to the cause?

I can think of causes where an effect can only be seen years later and only if additional causes are in effect. Something which couldn't be predicted and sometimes can't be investigated in detail.
Let's say you are tasked with the maintenance of building and it's not only you but also three other guys. If you do your job thoroughly nothing bad will happen. If you slack, there are three others who can pick up after you. Only if you all don't do your job, the building will crumble. Who's fault will it be?
No gods or "karma" needed - except when you call exactly that karma.

 

[danieldemol]

I can think of causes where an effect can only be seen years later and only if additional causes are in effect. Something which couldn't be predicted and sometimes can't be investigated in detail.
Let's say you are tasked with the maintenance of building and it's not only you but also three other guys. If you do your job thoroughly nothing bad will happen. If you slack, there are three others who can pick up after you. Only if you all don't do your job, the building will crumble. Who's fault will it be?
No gods or "karma" needed - except when you call exactly that karma.

Karma is more like the building crumbling even if the three of you come back and do your jobs properly and completely knock down and rebuild the building to safe standards after you neglect it and then the building falls down in the absence of neglect in my opinion. That's why I said, "with no correlation to the cause".

 

[SalixIncendium]

Karma is more like the building crumbling even if the three of you come back and do your jobs properly and completely knock down and rebuild the building to safe standards after you neglect it and then the building falls down in the absence of neglect in my opinion. That's why I said, "with no correlation to the cause".

If there is no correlation to the cause, how is it causality? How is it karma?

In your example above, if the crumbling of the building has no correlation to cause, what is the cause?

 

[Nakosis]

They say, in China, whenever there are major natural disasters, the people would often ask 'What did the Emperor do this time?' (or so I have heard).

'It was also a common belief that natural disasters such as famine and flood were divine retributions bearing signs of Heaven's displeasure with the ruler, so there would often be revolts following major disasters as the people saw these calamities as signs that the Mandate of Heaven had been withdrawn.'

Being a Hindu I think of this as Karma caused by the local government actions rather than the 'Mandate of Heaven'.

I thought about this after reading this headline "Super typhoon Doksuri skips Taiwan and slams into China" . Compared to the Taiwan government, the Karma of the Chinese CCP is really bad because of the way they treat many of their own citizens. So if you follow, the Chinese belief above, it makes sense for the typhoon to avoid Taiwan and wreck China,

Getting closer to home, the recent extreme heatwave in the US pretty much avoided California (it was hot but not that bad) but hit the whole South starting with Arizona and then Texas all the way to Florida, Last year there were many climate events in Texas and Florida, like the freeze in Texas and hurricanes in Florida, California on the other hand was handed a gift - heavy rain that had never been seen before that wiped out the drought from many years and filled all the reservoirs.

The Southern states are the ones treating 'the least of these' very badly in the last few years. The 'least of these' are marginalized, oppressed, poor people, especially refugees. California has been much better for refugees and poor people. So it makes sense for natural disasters to hit those states with such meanspirited policies.

I expect this year's natural disasters to hit Texas and Florida much worse than California for the rest of the year and going forward.

What are your thoughts?

Do you think God is a Democrat?

 

[1213]

What DeSantis is doing is as much the fault of the people of Florida as it is of his administration.

I don't think he is doing anything that bad that would be reason for judgment.

 

[1213]

Karma isn’t about assigning blame. It’s causality.

Is the bad karma not person's own fault?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Is the bad karma not person's own fault?

Karma is action. Good or bad, the consequences of that action are not only dependent on the action, but the intent behind the action.

I don't know why you're so intent on assigning blame...to judge one's actions. Karma is about action and consequence...causality. It's not about finding fault in actions. It's not about judgment of others.

 

[danieldemol]

If there is no correlation to the cause, how is it causality? How is it karma?

In your example above, if the crumbling of the building has no correlation to cause, what is the cause?

Exactly, karma is most probably an oxymoron because there is no demonstrable link between the action and the so-called reaction in my view.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Exactly, karma is most probably an oxymoron because there is no demonstrable link between the action and the so-called reaction in my view.

So if your toe is in pain because a hammer fell on it, there is no demonstrable link between the hammer hitting your toe and the hammer slipping out of your hand?

 

[danieldemol]

So if your toe is in pain because a hammer fell on it, there is no demonstrable link between the hammer hitting your toe and the hammer slipping out of your hand?

Not if there is no pain shortly after the hammer hits your toe but then in a million years in a new life when you didn't drop a hammer on your toe it suddenly starts paining there isn't.

And that is precisely why your hammer scenario is not analogous to karma in my view.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Not if there is no pain shortly after the hammer hits your toe but then in a million years in a new life when you didn't drop a hammer on your toe it suddenly starts paining there isn't.

And that is precisely why your hammer scenario is not analogous to karma in my view.

For the third time in this thread:

Karma is causality. Action/reaction. Cause/effect.

Duration between cause and effect is irrelevant. Reincarnation is irrelevant.

And clearly, based on your example and conclusion based on that example, you're in complete ignorance of how karma works. Maybe sit back and learn here or do some research. Your example and conclusion is nothing short of silly.

Here's a little karma101 to get you rolling:

Karma - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org