Karma in Advaita

[SalixIncendium]

I struggle with this too. I can understand that my experience ("my world") depends on being conscious. I can understand that everything I experience is a transient appearance to "my" consciousness.
What I don't understand is how my world is basically the same as everybody's else world. How is it that what appears to my consciousness is basically the same as what appears to everyone else's consciousness?
If it's an illusion, then it must be a shared illusion. And if it's not an illusion, then how is this different from a materialist or scientific view of consciousness?

Shared with whom?

When you are dreaming, who is it you are sharing this illusion with? The other characters in your dream? Is the world of your dream your dream character's illusion, a shared illusion with your dream character and the other characters of your dream, or is the the illusion the person lying in bed sleeping?

 

[Martin]

Shared with whom?

When you are dreaming, who is it you are sharing this illusion with? The other characters in your dream? Is the world of your dream your dream character's illusion, a shared illusion with your dream character and the other characters of your dream, or is the the illusion the person lying in bed sleeping?

I'm talking about waking consciousness. How do you explain the high degree of consistency in our shared experience of the world?

 

[The Crimson Universe]

How you know there is more than you? What is the definition of "Someone/others/everyone"?

How do we know? Well, we can all see other separate individuals living around us. That's how we know. Even though Advaita says this is incorrect knowledge but to us common folks it seems very real. I guess that's the power of maya.

 

[Martin]

Its got to be a shared illusion. That's the only thing i can think of.
If it wasn't then all of us probably wouldn't have registered the same appearances.

This shared illusion is projected by the One cosmic consciousness (Brahman) that is really ME.

Its ME the formless, that became many limited forms (like Martin, Greg and the rest).



Unlike science, Consciousness in Advaita is not the product of our individual minds. Rather our individual minds are pervaded and animated by this omnipresent cosmic consciousness, which is eternal and continues to exist & function by projecting the world, even if our individual minds ceases to function properly like in the case of a coma.



When you say (my) projections and (others') projections, you're speaking from the point of view of jivas (individual beings).

Jivas don't really project anything because they are actually insentient, made up of mind, body, sheaths. They're like empty shells or vessels which are being animated when pervaded by the One infinite spirit or One cosmic consciousness. Just like electricity turning on various lifeless machineries.



Yes that is my belief too.
There are no separate unique consciousness like yours, mine or others in Advaita. There's only ONE undivided stream of cosmic consciousness, shared by all the jivas or false selves.
And when we share this consciousness, we also share the projections that comes with it :=)

Yes, a shared universal consciousness could be one explanation. Though usually we don't experience it like that, since each jiva is like a different point of view, or a different source point of consciousness. Or something!

Another explanation would be based on the duality of the Samkyha model (purusha/prakriti), which I personally find more intelligible.

 

[Viswa]

Yes, I assume that you, Viswa, have typed this reply. What's your explanation for what is happening, if not that?

Just read previous reply again, here,

When Viswa speaks, it's not me speaking but it's Sattvic dominates others, to make everything Sattvic. And in all acts, all time, only these dominate other ones and try to take control. Sattvic Guna dominates and sees, Knowledge/Peace must be uttered to other gunas, so that other gunas might subside and Dharmic remains in all actions.

Gunas Plays and Dominates one another in forms of Intellect, Mind and Senses. Nothing other than Me. One may ask, Is this "Gunas" have "Life"?. It can act only in union with Purusha. Without Purusha, it cannot act. But it doesn't mean Purusha acts.

All questions asked, All posts read, All things spoke/speak/will be spoken, All actions of five senses were/are/will be, All thoughts in Mind, All forms of Knowledge/Intellect about things/etc., - done only by this '3 gunas'. No actions can arise without a domination of one of them, whatever the action it may be.

If one identifies that "This is done by me, That is done by Him/her, etc.," - It's Ignorance - Domination of Tamasic. That wrong identification itself an act of domination of Tamasic Guna, but not by Me/One/Purusha.

I don't do anything. There is no other person/living being.

Are you just a figment of my imagination, and how would I know?
It's fine to question assumptions, but I would like to to know what your assumptions are. How do you explain the high degree of consensus in our shared experience of the world?
What mechanism is involved?

First of all, how do you know there is 'another'?

 

[Viswa]

How do we know? Well, we can all see other separate individuals living around us. That's how we know. Even though Advaita says this is incorrect knowledge but to us common folks it seems very real. I guess that's the power of maya.

See other? May you please describe this process of 'seeing'? Separate Individuals?

 

[Martin]

See other? May you please describe this process of 'seeing'? Separate Individuals?

I see your replies here. I see my friends and family, I see neighbours, people in the street. I can touch them, I can talk to them, sometimes I can smell them. Also when I talk to people, their experience is the same as mine, so it's a shared reality.

Have you heard of Occam's razor?

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Yes, a shared universal consciousness could be one explanation. Though usually we don't experience it like that, since each jiva is like a different point of view, or a different source point of consciousness. Or something!

I think the difference in the views of each jiva is due to the tool/sheath called mind. Since each jiva has a separate unique mind that thinks differently and forms its own personal opinions based on its (good and bad) experiences, it appears to us that we all have our own uniqueness, or as you said, a separate point of view.

I'm not much familiar with Samkhya except for a couple of things maybe, but other Dualitic schools like the Hare Krishnas gives more importance to our individuality. Unlike Advaita, they claim this separateness is very real, and continues even after moksha.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

See other? May you please describe this process of 'seeing'? Separate Individuals?

When i go outside i see with my eyes a lot of people walking down the road. Including pretty girls ...their minds and bodies are nothing like that of mine. So yes, they are separate than my 5 sheaths.

 

[Viswa]

I see your replies here. I see my friends and family, I see neighbours, people in the street. I can touch them, I can talk to them, sometimes I can smell them. Also when I talk to people, their experience is the same as mine, so it's a shared reality.

Have you heard of Occam's razor?

I read in Wiki now. So, Fewest Assumption should be taken/trusted. Hmm..

How do you know they are 'friends and family'? How do you know they are 'people' in streets? - By Touching, By Smelling, By Talking, By Hearing, By thinking, By Intellect/Knowledge/Memory, even one may by tasting. So, only when all these 7 things coincides, one can relate/assume that there is another. Or atleast one sense organ with Memory, is needed/assumed for accepting that "there is another one different from me".

What happens if senses and mind don't coincide? It's been named as "hallucinations" as "not real". But, is it? It is just a non-alignment with senses and mind, but just a small non alignment creates a different perception which looks totally real to those hallucinated ones. how is it possible?

Because, the combination of Senses and Mind, with all it's powers and memories, make one assume that "there is another/more living beings" from the movement. As movement don't arise in 'my' body or 'my' mind or 'my' intellect and perceived differently through senses (Rather than Push system from Intellect-Mind-Body, things perceived in way of pull system first Body - then Mind- then Intellect), so one ignorantly assumes from all this alignment as "There is another/many different me".

Nope. It's not so. No need of Assumptions to accept. It's all Gunas acts. When say someone (X/Y/Z) tries to attack me, it is just a "Rajasic/Tamasic" guna wants to dominate "Sattva" guna, and I just witness. Everytime, these guna wants to show it's power one on another. Nothing attacks me, and they play with each other - I watch it.

All occupies 33%. If those three are kept in Balance, Bliss is felt as in the left over 1%. If those are not balanced, like when this "sattva" guna dominates here in this reply, to teach/express what it feels to make the other gunas subside, no Bliss felt. Beyond Sattva, to go beyond expressing or making any action, is Bliss felt in such Balance, where actionless and nothing dominates. Like The Linga form, in which upper portion is Purusha and lower portion is three gunas, and from that three gunas, all movements and actions happens in this world/other.

Even in God/Guru, Sattvic Dominates, and not God does action, as there is no "Individual" as "God/Guru". It's just a form of Knowledge expression.

 

[Viswa]

When i go outside i see with my eyes a lot of people walking down the road. Including pretty girls ...their minds and bodies are nothing like that of mine. So yes, they are separate than my 5 sheaths.

Your 5 sheaths? Why separate 'this is my 5 sheaths' and rest is 'others'? Because I don't/can't control/access those ('other's sheaths')?

What if one can actually gain control over those (other's sheaths)? What if one can have access to those (other's minds)? What if one can experience the same by "jumping" from 'my body' to 'other's body' - from 'my mind' to 'other's mind'?

 

[Martin]

I think the difference in the views of each jiva is due to the tool/sheath called mind. Since each jiva has a separate unique mind that thinks differently and forms its own personal opinions based on its (good and bad) experiences, it appears to us that we all have our own uniqueness, or as you said, a separate point of view.

I'm not much familiar with Samkhya except for a couple of things maybe, but other Dualitic schools like the Hare Krishnas gives more importance to our individuality. Unlike Advaita, they claim this separateness is very real, and continues even after moksha.

I currently find the Samkhya model of purusha and prakriti more intelligible than the Advaita model of Brahman and Maya. Occam's razor!

 

[Martin]

Your 5 sheaths? Why separate 'this is my 5 sheaths' and rest is 'others'? Because I don't/can't control/access those ('other's sheaths')?

What if one can actually gain control over those (other's sheaths)? What if one can have access to those (other's minds)? What if one can experience the same by "jumping" from 'my body' to 'other's body' - from 'my mind' to 'other's mind'?

Have you actually done this? And if so, please describe your experiences.

 

[Martin]

I read in Wiki now. So, Fewest Assumption should be taken/trusted. Hmm..

How do you know they are 'friends and family'? How do you know they are 'people' in streets? - By Touching, By Smelling, By Talking, By Hearing, By thinking, By Intellect/Knowledge/Memory, even one may by tasting. So, only when all these 7 things coincides, one can relate/assume that there is another. Or atleast one sense organ with Memory, is needed/assumed for accepting that "there is another one different from me".

What happens if senses and mind don't coincide? It's been named as "hallucinations" as "not real". But, is it? It is just a non-alignment with senses and mind, but just a small non alignment creates a different perception which looks totally real to those hallucinated ones. how is it possible?

Because, the combination of Senses and Mind, with all it's powers and memories, make one assume that "there is another/more living beings" from the movement. As movement don't arise in 'my' body or 'my' mind or 'my' intellect and perceived differently through senses (Rather than Push system from Intellect-Mind-Body, things perceived in way of pull system first Body - then Mind- then Intellect), so one ignorantly assumes from all this alignment as "There is another/many different me".

Nope. It's not so. No need of Assumptions to accept. It's all Gunas acts. When say someone (X/Y/Z) tries to attack me, it is just a "Rajasic/Tamasic" guna wants to dominate "Sattva" guna, and I just witness. Everytime, these guna wants to show it's power one on another. Nothing attacks me, and they play with each other - I watch it.

All occupies 33%. If those three are kept in Balance, Bliss is felt as in the left over 1%. If those are not balanced, like when this "sattva" guna dominates here in this reply, to teach/express what it feels to make the other gunas subside, no Bliss felt. Beyond Sattva, to go beyond expressing or making any action, is Bliss felt in such Balance, where actionless and nothing dominates. Like The Linga form, in which upper portion is Purusha and lower portion is three gunas, and from that three gunas, all movements and actions happens in this world/other.

Even in God/Guru, Sattvic Dominates, and not God does action, as there is no "Individual" as "God/Guru". It's just a form of Knowledge expression.

One indicator of the Occam's Razor principle is the amount of text required to explain your theory. The simple explanation only takes a couple of sentences.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Your 5 sheaths? Why separate 'this is my 5 sheaths' and rest is 'others'? Because I don't/can't control/access those ('other's sheaths')?

What if one can actually gain control over those (other's sheaths)? What if one can have access to those (other's minds)? What if one can experience the same by "jumping" from 'my body' to 'other's body' - from 'my mind' to 'other's mind'?

Have you actually done this? And if so, please describe your experiences.

I think our friend Viswa here is into mind control and possession. lol

 

[Viswa]

Have you actually done this? And if so, please describe your experiences.

So, only if one had experienced such, it can be accepted, but not from near/far history? Not even from enlightened beings - Sages/Buddha/Sankara/Ramana/Shirdi Sai/etc., about 'siddhi' powers?

Then, I'm sorry. I don't.

There is no need of Assumptions here. Those experiences are available, One can access 'my/other's' past/etc., and Sattvic will dominate there too one day, maybe in this life or other.

If you really want to access such experiences, strict control of senses and meditation is necessary, and a strong belief too. As I see that, Tamasic Guna don't believe anything unless it is experienced, seems it won't be experienced.

That's the difference between Science and Mystic. Science believe something from experiences. Mystic access experiences from believing. What one chooses it's upto one. But as if Science is chosen, it doesn't mean other is false.

Actually, I(Sattvic) don't need those powers/experiences. But Gurus says, in way of Moksha, one will access it. When I come across such powers, I (Sattvic) will reach you(Rajasic/Tamasic) in an unpredictable manner.

Thank you.

 

[Viswa]

One indicator of the Occam's Razor principle is the amount of text required to explain your theory. The simple explanation only takes a couple of sentences.

. Simple explanation deceives one from going deep.

 

[Martin]

. Simple explanation deceives one from going deep.

Quite the contrary in my experience.

 

[Martin]

So, only if one had experienced such, it can be accepted, but not from near/far history? Not even from enlightened beings - Sages/Buddha/Sankara/Ramana/Shirdi Sai/etc., about 'siddhi' powers?

Then, I'm sorry. I don't.

There is no need of Assumptions here. Those experiences are available, One can access 'my/other's' past/etc., and Sattvic will dominate there too one day, maybe in this life or other.

If you really want to access such experiences, strict control of senses and meditation is necessary, and a strong belief too. As I see that, Tamasic Guna don't believe anything unless it is experienced, seems it won't be experienced.

That's the difference between Science and Mystic. Science believe something from experiences. Mystic access experiences from believing. What one chooses it's upto one. But as if Science is chosen, it doesn't mean other is false.

Actually, I(Sattvic) don't need those powers/experiences. But Gurus says, in way of Moksha, one will access it. When I come across such powers, I (Sattvic) will reach you(Rajasic/Tamasic) in an unpredictable manner.

Thank you.

So it's not something you've experienced, but something you believe is possible? OK.

 

[Viswa]

So it's not something you've experienced, but something you believe is possible? OK.

Nope. It's not experienced by this mind/body for these 25 years. But, it is experienced in Many minds and bodies, which was not accessed by me, as I had deep sensual desires.

Those desires decreasing and senses starts to obey me. Whenever it(Tamasic) arises, I(Sattvic) arises and says "Hey Mind. Everything senses show won't give satisfaction though it give immense pleasure. Obey Me. Let me dominate here in this Body and Mind and Intellect. It will give True Satisfaction which no objects/thoughts/actions/movement can give". And so, Sattvic takes control and after taking control immediately gives away it's possession, and everything gets balanced and Bliss and Satisfaction felt. Day by Day, Sattvic domination increases and dissolves in this satisfaction. Senses and Mind gets easily controlled.

Seems one day, I will reach you in any form, and truly know to who is behind these accounts, a Man or Woman, an American or Indian or Romanian descendent studied in France, or some other.

Many Minds, Many thoughts, Different perceptions, Contradicting opinions, Many bodies, etc., - doesn't mean there are many "separate individuals".

Namaste.

Bye.