Karma in Advaita

[Valjean]

How do you know this?
And how is it we're all having the same dream?

Do you believe the "reality" we seem to be experiencing is congruent with modern physics?

Ultimately, there is no "we all," there exists only a single consciousness. Diversity is an illusion, and it involves the concept of a hierarchy of different realities foreign to most Western thought.
You are the only being in the universe. You're dreaming the rest of us, just as you dream other people when sleeping at night.

This sounds crazy and counter-intuitive, of course, from our current reality.
We're already familiar with three levels of consciousness, Deep sleep, REM (dreaming) sleep, and waking-state. From waking state, the dreams of REM sleep are clearly unreal. Wake up, sometime, and you'll see.

From higher levels of consciousness, our current waking-state is just as obviously impossible. What we experience in these states begins to look more and more like a quantum reality.

So, we have multiple, illusory, subjective realities -- each appearing real from within -- but different worlds, with different rules. And one Objective Reality, beyond time, change, matter, energy, or diversity; a steady state of quantum potentiality.

Reaching such a unified state is the goal of Hinduism.

 

[Viswa]

Thanks, I'll have another look at BG 13 and 14. I'm already familiar with the experience of anandamaya, and understand the heart reference.
Samkhya philosophy assumes many purushas, right?

Fine.

Samkhya philosophy speaks about "Only one Purusha" and combines with "Prakriti". Jivas, are different from Purusha, a false identity, and I hereby explain about it.

When Purusha combines with Unmanifest Prakriti(Avyakta), Prakriti starts to manifest starting from Mahat to Body - which Samkhya explains about.

We, if we take as this 'individual intellect/mind/memory and body' as ME, then it is called as Jiva - and there are 'n' number of Jivas - but this is false identification. Only when Ego of Prakriti, assumes falsely itself as a 'being' based on the individual experiences & Knowledge and Memories and Senses and Body, it is identified as "Jiva". When one removes/discriminates this Body-Mind-Intellect-Ego, as not a 'being' but only Prakriti, the remaining is the 'self', the One and Only Purusha.

That's why Krishna advices to Arjuna, to not assume himself wrongly as "individual" who will die and born - based on elements of Prakriti and it's changing Nature, but Discriminate Purusha from Prakriti, and you are not slain/killed or born/die - but the One Purusha/Atma. There is no individual Jivas actually.

Only the Ignorant says, "there are many Separate Individuals as Jivas" - based on many Minds/Mermories/Experiences/Knowledge/Opinions/Bodies. But all those are Prakriti, and one must discriminate themself from Prakriti and not get attached with Prakriti. From this discrimination, from the many individual body-mind-etc., one realizes the Self, which is only One.

Devotional Gurus call this "Purusha" as "God" and "we" are "Jivas", and Jivas cannot become this "God". But, it's again Ignorance. There are not many. Only One Purusha and Prakriti. No Jivas. One Purusha experiences Prakriti in all worlds/Lokas.

Even this Ignorance and false Identification in bondage with elements of Prakriti as 'Jivas' and Liberation from the Bondage - everything is the act of Prakriti, and Purusha witnesses all these acts.

 

[Viswa]

From higher levels of consciousness, our current waking-state is just as obviously impossible. What we experience in these states begins to look more and more like a quantum reality.

So, we have multiple, illusory, subjective realities -- each appearing real from within -- but different worlds, with different rules. And one Objective Reality, beyond time, change, matter, energy, or diversity; a steady state of quantum potentiality.

Reaching such a unified state is the goal of Hinduism.

You clearly explained about Illusion.

I have only one difference, and that is, Objective Reality is also an Ignorance. When you said about Quantum potentiality, there is actually "Change" and "Energy" there, but not a steady. Quantum is subject to Waves and Change and based upon a 'Gross Space', which is also a kind of Matter. If this 'Gross Space' is removed too, Quantum cannot be seen.

If one says, Objective reality is a subtle kind - which is not experienced as "Gross" - then it shall be not Ignorance. But, the Quantum researches everything is bound to Space and Waves here.

When one observes upto the length of 10 to the power -34 (planck length) - it's Quantum. But beyond this length, Quantum is also Doomed. When particles are stricked upto this length, observation happens. But beyond this length, even waves are not observed, a Black hole emerges and the particles are swollen and Black hole disappears by emiting Hawking radiations. Even this hawking radiations are experienced because of Space-time. When this whole Universe goes into this Quantum and into the Black hole, there will be no trace of Hawking radiations too.

Quantum is Space-time. Relativity is Space-time. Time and Space is Matter (Manifested Prakriti - as I see it) And Space-time is Doomed (Prof. Nima Arkani-Hamed - School of Natural Sciences at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey).

Edit - Above, all I explained about Quantum Field. But, if you speak about Quantum Potential of Bohm's, I have a different view about that as "Objective Reality" too.

Quantum Potential cannot be experienced. Quantum Potential (Can be like Avyakta), but can be experienced only as Manifestation in power of Maya (Vyakta Prakriti). Only Quantum Field can be experienced, but not Quantum Potential.

The Quantum Potential, cannot be an object. One might know, what happens in future, in which position the electron will be, as a knower - Purusha, but this knowing is by accessing the future experience/time of Quantum field (like Time travel), but not knowing the Quantum Potential. But as an experience, only Quantum field can be experienced.

Space is required for any Object to experience. Space is an aspect of Duality. as One experience the other. Without Space (even the Bliss is filled in Space, Bliss is Prakriti too an experienced object but not the nature of Purusha. Bliss manifests first at the time of Interaction of Purusha and Prakriti. Bliss is Brahman but Bliss is not Purusha and Purusha is only the experiencer), no experience can happen.

 

[Valjean]

You clearly explained about Illusion.

I have only one difference, and that is, Objective Reality is also an Ignorance. When you said about Quantum potentiality, there is actually "Change" and "Energy" there, but not a steady. Quantum is subject to Waves and Change and based upon a 'Gross Space', which is also a kind of Matter. If this 'Gross Space' is removed too, Quantum cannot be seen.

If one says, Objective reality is a subtle kind - which is not experienced as "Gross" - then it shall be not Ignorance. But, the Quantum researches everything is bound to Space and Waves here.

When one observes upto the length of 10 to the power -34 (planck length) - it's Quantum. But beyond this length, Quantum is also Doomed. When particles are stricked upto this length, observation happens. But beyond this length, even waves are not observed, a Black hole emerges and the particles are swollen and Black hole disappears by emiting Hawking radiations. Even this hawking radiations are experienced because of Space-time. When this whole Universe goes into this Quantum and into the Black hole, there will be no trace of Hawking radiations too.

Quantum is Space-time. Relativity is Space-time. Time and Space is Matter (Manifested Prakriti - as I see it) And Space-time is Doomed (Prof. Nima Arkani-Hamed - School of Natural Sciences at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey).

Good points, here. I've no argument with this.

I'm not saying theoretical physics describes Reality. We've only just scratched the surface, and there remain a great many baffling phenomena.
I'm trying to illustrate the incompatibility of our sensory and cognitive experience of the world with reference to the relatively familiar counter-intuitive findings of relativity and quantum mechanics. The Yogis' descriptions of the mystical experiences seem more and more in line with theoretical physics, and less with our waking-state qualia.

 

[Martin]

Fine.

Samkhya philosophy speaks about "Only one Purusha" and combines with "Prakriti". Jivas, are different from Purusha, a false identity, and I hereby explain about it.

When Purusha combines with Unmanifest Prakriti(Avyakta), Prakriti starts to manifest starting from Mahat to Body - which Samkhya explains about.

We, if we take as this 'individual intellect/mind/memory and body' as ME, then it is called as Jiva - and there are 'n' number of Jivas - but this is false identification. Only when Ego of Prakriti, assumes falsely itself as a 'being' based on the individual experiences & Knowledge and Memories and Senses and Body, it is identified as "Jiva". When one removes/discriminates this Body-Mind-Intellect-Ego, as not a 'being' but only Prakriti, the remaining is the 'self', the One and Only Purusha.

That's why Krishna advices to Arjuna, to not assume himself wrongly as "individual" who will die and born - based on elements of Prakriti and it's changing Nature, but Discriminate Purusha from Prakriti, and you are not slain/killed or born/die - but the One Purusha/Atma. There is no individual Jivas actually.

Only the Ignorant says, "there are many Separate Individuals as Jivas" - based on many Minds/Mermories/Experiences/Knowledge/Opinions/Bodies. But all those are Prakriti, and one must discriminate themself from Prakriti and not get attached with Prakriti. From this discrimination, from the many individual body-mind-etc., one realizes the Self, which is only One.

Devotional Gurus call this "Purusha" as "God" and "we" are "Jivas", and Jivas cannot become this "God". But, it's again Ignorance. There are not many. Only One Purusha and Prakriti. No Jivas. One Purusha experiences Prakriti in all worlds/Lokas.

Even this Ignorance and false Identification in bondage with elements of Prakriti as 'Jivas' and Liberation from the Bondage - everything is the act of Prakriti, and Purusha witnesses all these acts.

Thanks. I'm familiar with the idea of discriminating between prakriti and purusha, and it appears similar to the distinction between koshas and Atman. Is Atman the same as purusha, or are there any differences?

I'm curious about the basis for the idea that there is only one Purusha in Samkhya philosophy. You've referred to the Bhagavad Gita, but are there any texts or commentaries which are specific to Samkhya? I haven't been able to find much so far.

 

[Martin]

Do you believe the "reality" we seem to be experiencing is congruent with modern physics?

Ultimately, there is no "we all," there exists only a single consciousness. Diversity is an illusion, and it involves the concept of a hierarchy of different realities foreign to most Western thought.
You are the only being in the universe. You're dreaming the rest of us, just as you dream other people when sleeping at night.

This sounds crazy and counter-intuitive, of course, from our current reality.
We're already familiar with three levels of consciousness, Deep sleep, REM (dreaming) sleep, and waking-state. From waking state, the dreams of REM sleep are clearly unreal. Wake up, sometime, and you'll see.

From higher levels of consciousness, our current waking-state is just as obviously impossible. What we experience in these states begins to look more and more like a quantum reality.

So, we have multiple, illusory, subjective realities -- each appearing real from within -- but different worlds, with different rules. And one Objective Reality, beyond time, change, matter, energy, or diversity; a steady state of quantum potentiality.

Reaching such a unified state is the goal of Hinduism.

Thanks, but this seems like a statement of belief, rather than a statement of experience. Can you say what in your own experience leads you to believe that this explanation is actually correct?

 

[Viswa]

Thanks. I'm familiar with the idea of discriminating between prakriti and purusha, and it appears similar to the distinction between koshas and Atman. Is Atman the same as purusha, or are there any differences?

I'm curious about the basis for the idea that there is only one Purusha in Samkhya philosophy. You've referred to the Bhagavad Gita, but are there any texts or commentaries which are specific to Samkhya? I haven't been able to find much so far.

First of all what do you mean by Purusha, Martin? If we discuss about your view about many Purushas - nature of Purushas, it will be very much evident.

Also, there are not many texts found in Samkhya now. It's all been updated by Dualists/Devottes of Krishna, as Kapila an avatar of Krishna/Narayana, so could not find the root text of Samkhya but I read in Canto 3 and Canto 11 of Bhagavatham. If you know a different texts other than bhagavatham, i welcome and we shall discuss what's said there too.

 

[Martin]

First of all what do you mean by Purusha, Martin? If we discuss about your view about many Purushas - nature of Purushas, it will be very much evident.

Also, there are not many texts found in Samkhya now. It's all been updated by Dualists/Devottes of Krishna, as Kapila an avatar of Krishna/Narayana, so could not find the root text of Samkhya but I read in Canto 3 and Canto 11 of Bhagavatham. If you know a different texts other than bhagavatham, i welcome and we shall discuss what's said there too.

My assumption is that purusha is equivalent to Atman, and the sources I've looked at say purushas are innumerable. They also say that Samkhya is non-theist, ie Brahman is not a part of their philosophy.

Here's a couple of the articles I've looked at so far, what do you think of them?

Samkhya | Definition, Doctrines, Philosophy, & Buddhism

THE SANKHYA PHILOSOPHY

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. there exists only a single consciousness.

There sure is a universal consciousness, but it is completely different from what we define as human consciousness. It is a consciousness of four fundamental forces of nature or perhaps five or perhaps just one, we do not know. It does not need a mind. It acts automatically. We should never equate universal consciousness with human consciousness.

Can you say what in your own experience leads you to believe that this explanation is actually correct?

It can never be experienced, but it could be understood by learning about Quantum Mechanics. It can be checked with various experiments. Experience through our senses is false and very superficial. Can you experience the whirling of electrons?

 

[SalixIncendium]

...but it is completely different from what we know as consciousness.

It depends who "we" is.

If you are talking about "we" as in you, @Valjean, I, and a few others here, then it's not at all different. I think "we" know it as cit, turiya, or the fourth.

But I do get that you mean what western societies consider "consciousness;" that which is inherent to jagrat, swapna, and sushupti (waking, dream, and deep sleep [which actually considered "un-consciousness"]).

 

[Martin]

Good points, here. I've no argument with this.

I'm not saying theoretical physics describes Reality. We've only just scratched the surface, and there remain a great many baffling phenomena.
I'm trying to illustrate the incompatibility of our sensory and cognitive experience of the world with reference to the relatively familiar counter-intuitive findings of relativity and quantum mechanics. The Yogis' descriptions of the mystical experiences seem more and more in line with theoretical physics, and less with our waking-state qualia.

I'm sceptical about the idea that mystical experience is somehow equivalent to theoretical physics. We don't experience the sub-atomic world, and neither did the rishis. And higher states of consciousness aren't amenable to scientific investigation.

 

[Martin]

There sure is a universal consciousness, but it is completely different from what we know as consciousness. It is a consciousness of four fundamental forces of nature or perhaps five or perhaps just one, we do not know. It does not need a mind. It acts automatically. We should never equate universal consciousness with human consciousness.It can never be experienced, but it could be understood by learning about Quantum Mechanics. It can be checked with various experiments. Experience through our senses is false and very superficial. Can you experience the whirling of electrons?

So you believe in a universal consciousness which you say is nothing to do with human consciousness, and can never be experienced? OK.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It depends who "we" is.

If you are talking about "we" as in you, @Valjean, I, and a few others here, then it's not at all different. I think "we" know it as cit, turiya, or the fourth.

But I do get that you mean what western societies consider "consciousness;" that which is inherent to jagrat, swapna, and sushupti (waking, dream, and deep sleep [which actually considered "un-consciousness"]).

I used 'we' here for all humans without going into esoterics (I also changed my post to say 'what we define as human consciousness'). I do not understand esoterics and mysticism - cit, turiya and the fourth.
For me there is a Quantum consciousness of the universe and human consciousness which gets extinguished at death with no remainder.
Straight-forward, simple, unambiguous, and after application of 'Buddhist Razor', the 'Kesamutti Sutta'.

 

[Martin]

I used 'we' here for all humans without going into esoterics (I also changed my post to say 'what we define as human consciousness'). I do not understand esoterics and mysticism - cit, turiya and the fourth.
For me there is a Quantum consciousness of the universe and human consciousness which gets extinguished at death with no remainder.
Straight-forward, simple, unambiguous, and after application of 'Buddhist Razor', the 'Kesamutti Sutta'.

What is "quantum consciousness", and why do you believe in it?
And is it related to Deepak Chopra's ideas?

 

[Valjean]

I'm sceptical about the idea that mystical experience is somehow equivalent to theoretical physics. We don't experience the sub-atomic world, and neither did the rishis. And higher states of consciousness aren't amenable to scientific investigation.

I'm not claiming equivalence, but I, and many others, see descriptive similarities, in certain respects.
True, we don't experience the quantum world in 3rd state consciousness., but the realities/experience of other states may vary.

Given past experience, I'm leery of claiming something not amenable to investigation. Neurology and consciousness are fairly new areas of study.
What we do have is theoretical physics, which has pretty well established a counter-intuitive reality, at odds with ordinary, conscious reality.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

What in your own experience confirms that there is only your consciousness, and that other jivas don't exist apart from that?

I am able to see it for myself. You can, too. There is no mysticism here such as entering other dimensions, states, etc. As Shankara said, it is purely intellectual - no more, no less.

My assumption is that purusha is equivalent to Atman, and the sources I've looked at say purushas are innumerable. They also say that Samkhya is non-theist, ie Brahman is not a part of their philosophy

The authoritative and oldest available text on Sankhya is the Sankhya Karika of Ishvara Krishna (~3rd Century CE). It consists of 72 karikas. If you are serious about Sankhya, you should read this book. It is based on the older text Shashti-tantra (now lost).

Sankhya is atheistic. Ishwara plays no role in this system. However, later, the Mahabharata/Gita wrote about a theistic version of Sankhya (by mixing it up with Yoga), which is different from the Karika version.

I had written a short blog on Sankhya history sometime ago -
Sankhya history

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is "quantum consciousness", and why do you believe in it?
And is it related to Deepak Chopra's ideas?

Presently, what is known as interaction of four fundamental forces of nature. The theories may see corrections in future.
I have never read Deepak Chopra, and by what has been quoted from him, to me, seems to be foolishness. I have also never read any Western atheist (Dawkins, et. all)*; or any Western philosopher (Aquinas, Kant, Descartes, Sartre, etc.). All that I write is either from science or from Hindu and Buddhist scriptures. I take Buddha and Sankara as my gurus, but differ from both of them.
* I have read a small book of essays from Bertrand Russel more than half-a-century ago, which had a huge impact on me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am able to see it for myself. You can, too. There is no mysticism here such as entering other dimensions, states, etc. As Shankara said, it is purely intellectual - no more, no less.
Sankhya history

That is a nice write-up, Shiva. And that leads me to post a new thread.

 

[Viswa]

Sankhya is atheistic. Ishwara plays no role in this system. However, later, the Mahabharata/Gita wrote about a theistic version of Sankhya (by mixing it up with Yoga), which is different from the Karika version.

Thanks Shiv.

I hereby discuss why Sankhya is Atheistic, also even in Bhagavat Gita is full of Atheist too (you will grasp the manner in which I say this by reading the below).

God, people think of, is the Creator-Maintainer-Destroyer, Lovable and Compassionate and Merciful and Many things, even while being "One-Eternal Purusha/Brahman".

The thing Krishna keep on saying to Arjuna is, I am "not the doer" and Only Prakriti (Material Nature) does this.
And so, there is no "God like Spirit" does this Creation-maintanence-Destruction, and only Prakriti does this.

Even Before Big-Bang, the creation of Atoms/Subatomic particles, creation of Planets/Stars, creation of 5 elements of nature, creation of living beings, and all it's maintenance and destruction till the end of Universe, is not done by the "Purusha" but only by Prakriti. Purusha witnesses Prakriti's Play.

As Vishnu, whatever action looks like done by Vishnu to protect Dharma, is not actually done by "Supreme Purusha", but only by the "Sattvic Guna". Also, this creation, looks like done by "Brahma" a person, is actually not done by God-like, but only by Prakriti - Rajas Guna. Prakriti - is all the 24 elements from Mahat Tattva, Ego, to elements and objects. And these 3 types of Gunas domination, action happens. GOD or Purusha or Eternal Spirit, not acts. GOD not loves and only Sattvic Guna in GOD loves. GOD not powerful and only Rajas Guna looks so.

All Love, Compassion, etc., is not Me and only a matter of Prakriti like Hate/Greed/Pride.

In this Manner, Atheism is said, as there is no Purusha Creates/maintains/Destroys, But it's all acts of Material Nature, and the Spirit don't do any action.

Purusha only witnesses and never acts.

 

[Martin]

Thanks Shiv.

I hereby discuss why Sankhya is Atheistic, also even in Bhagavat Gita is full of Atheist too (you will grasp the manner in which I say this by reading the below).

God, people think of, is the Creator-Maintainer-Destroyer, Lovable and Compassionate and Merciful and Many things, even while being "One-Eternal Purusha/Brahman".

The thing Krishna keep on saying to Arjuna is, I am "not the doer" and Only Prakriti (Material Nature) does this.
And so, there is no "God like Spirit" does this Creation-maintanence-Destruction, and only Prakriti does this.

Even Before Big-Bang, the creation of Atoms/Subatomic particles, creation of Planets/Stars, creation of 5 elements of nature, creation of living beings, and all it's maintenance and destruction till the end of Universe, is not done by the "Purusha" but only by Prakriti. Purusha witnesses Prakriti's Play.

As Vishnu, whatever action looks like done by Vishnu to protect Dharma, is not actually done by "Supreme Purusha", but only by the "Sattvic Guna". Also, this creation, looks like done by "Brahma" a person, is actually not done by God-like, but only by Prakriti - Rajas Guna. Prakriti - is all the 24 elements from Mahat Tattva, Ego, to elements and objects. And these 3 types of Gunas domination, action happens. GOD or Purusha or Eternal Spirit, not acts. GOD not loves and only Sattvic Guna in GOD loves. GOD not powerful and only Rajas Guna looks so.

All Love, Compassion, etc., is not Me and only a matter of Prakriti like Hate/Greed/Pride.

In this Manner, Atheism is said, as there is no Purusha Creates/maintains/Destroys, But it's all acts of Material Nature, and the Spirit don't do any action.

Purusha only witnesses and never acts.

I find it interesting that prakriti includes the koshas. So prakriti is everything that consciousness (purusha) can be aware of.

It seems that people have always tended to assign agency or intention to nature, like weather gods for example.