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Khizr Khan at the DNC

I'm happy to say "some Muslims fly in the face of Islam and believe in secularism". But Mr. Khan would like to eat his cake and have it too, by ignoring much of Islam's nature and pretending that he can be a Muslim AND loyal to America first. I can believe that Mr. Khan can be loyal to America first - no issue there. But he cannot also be "just another Muslim". He could be a Muslim who's a member of a breakout denomination or sect, but he didn't say that. That's a major omission. By his statements, he wants us to believe that Islam is different than what it really is.

The problem is you are using Islam to mean the Classical Sunnism that appeared from 1 or 2 centuries AH onwards. It doesn't require membership of a 'breakout denomination', as there have been heterodox beliefs from the outset (sorry for the long quote):

However, it is very noticeable when one looks at the origins of converts who became religious authorities or administrators that a high proportion of them were from the former territories of the Persian Empire and from Transoxania. In part, this is because the population of the former Byzantine provinces converted to Islam much more slowly than that of the eastern half of the caliphate, where the total collapse of the Persian Empire left no prospect of a revival of the old regime. And in part it reflects the survival in east Iran and Transoxania of highly literate elites who had the ability and motivation to become senior bureaucrats and scholars. Good examples are the Barmakids, formerly Buddhist leaders from Balkh, and the Sahlids, originally Zoroastrian nobles from Sarakhs, whose families dominated the top jobs in the Abbasid administration in the late eighth and early ninth centuries. 17 Such persons, once the seat of government had moved to Baghdad, a stone’s throw away from the former Persian capital, oversaw a large-scale Persianization of Islamic culture, especially in such areas as literature, history, and art...

One aspect of Persia that was more difficult to insert into Islam was its religious thought, for it was quite alien to the monotheist traditions of the Near East. Yet given its richness, distinctiveness, and antiquity, it was inevitable that its adherents would make efforts to preserve at least some of its components within Islam. This happened in particular through Shi‘ism and Sufism (Islamic mysticism). Unlike Sunni Islam, which gave preference to book-based knowledge with only limited interpretative powers allowed to scholars, Shi‘ism and Sufism granted a substantial role in the elaboration of Islam to living guides with direct access to God. In the case of Shi‘ism, this meant imams and their intermediaries, 19 and in Sufism this role was diffused among numerous gurus and teachers. This flexibility meant that such figures could adapt easily to local conditions and ways of thought and this facilitated the evolution of a distinctively Persian strain of Sufism. One of its key features is the notion of “universal manifestation”: the divine is everywhere, in rocks and trees as well as humans and animals, and Sufi-minded poets would speak of their divine beloved as pervading existence, “appearing in white and black, in Christians and Jews, in dogs and cats.” Another is reincarnation, both the idea that humans return in different forms according to how virtuous they were in their previous life, and the belief that the spirit might migrate from person to person. Again, this could take a poetic form, as in the verse attributed to Rumi that his beloved appears in different garb, sometimes old and sometimes young, as Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, in the image of Muhammad, and as the sword of ‘Ali. Sufism preached that the truth did not lie in external rules and fixed conventions but in hidden meanings and shifting forms, and this flexibility and ambiguity, coupled with a loose organizational structure, made it an attractive receptacle for the Persian religious tradition, and though it was suffused with beliefs from many other traditions similarly seeking a home, the input from Iran constituted perhaps the richest contribution.


Hoyland, Robert G.. In Gods Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire

Ironically, by asserting that Classical Sunnism is the One True Islam, you align yourself with the Salafists and takfiris.If you say a Muslim can't really be loyal to America without announcing themselves as a borderline apostate you are assuming it is not possible for a Muslim to consider that their personal relationship with God is the centre or their faith. Such a Muslim can live perfectly happily in a place where they are free to practice their religion as there is no conflict between nation and faith so they can be loyal to both.

Islam is as Muslims do. You can't expect them all to jump through hoops just because you have decided that Classical Sunnism is the Gold Standard and so anyone who isn't a Classical Sunni must identify themselves for inspection to see if they pass the 'good Muslim' test. Many of them do believe they have the right to call themselves Muslims, rather than deviant 'breakout denomination Muslims' you know.

As for Islamic history this is an interesting, short video that makes close to 600 claims. While this is probably a tangent, it seems that that's one thread of this bigger thread. What I think is interesting here is that many will react unfavorably to the speaker, but my guess is you'd be hard pressed to refute the preponderance of his claims:

I react unfavourably to anyone who highlights they are 'PhD' to boost their ethos, especially as it is probably in something like divinity rather than the topic he's talking about. :D

I only managed 1min of the video before it annoyed me too much. It wasn't wrong, just contextless polemic. I read a lot of early Islamic history and "Jihad v Crusades" is not a particularly useful narrative for anything other than religious point scoring. Read the Hoyland book I quoted earlier if you are interested, it's one of the better accounts of the conquests.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The appeal to statistics aside, do you have some information that supports this? A cursory Internet search turns up "foundational beliefs" that do not offer any insight into your argument.

Wait, given that we're talking about what Muslims believe, is an "appeal to statistics" a fallacy argument ?!

Here are a couple of links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country
and

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

It's important to note that in many of the countries where Sharia is a less popular idea, there are relatively few Muslims. Whereas a country like Indonesia has a HUGE Muslim population.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Augustus,

I agree that "Islam is as Muslims do", and the Pew poll is a modern understanding of that. I'm basing my conclusions on historical actions to some degree, to studying the scripture itself, and to modern beliefs to a large degree. Whether my opinions happen to align with some traditional version of Islam would be just coincidental.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Wait, given that we're talking about what Muslims believe, is an "appeal to statistics" a fallacy argument ?!
Would you rest your understanding of "what Muslims believe" on "what the survey says?" I cannot.

Here are a couple of links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country
and

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

It's important to note that in many of the countries where Sharia is a less popular idea, there are relatively few Muslims. Whereas a country like Indonesia has a HUGE Muslim population.
I'm sorry, I found those links unhelpful to answer my question about information on the Muslim core belief in theocracy.

On the other hand, they do contain lots of statistics.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Such a Muslim can live perfectly happily in a place where they are free to practice their religion as there is no conflict between nation and faith so they can be loyal to both.

Here's the thing @icehorse.
Back when I was regularly spending time conversing with Muslims in Bloomington Ind. one of the things I often heard was variations on "I like the USA and religious freedom because nobody tells me how to be Muslim".
They were not representative of the whole Muslim world. They were highly educated and informed. They were living in Jesustan. They were talking to a gay atheist guest.
But I don't think that they were lying either. They were quite able to hold both religious freedom and their own religion in very high regard.
Just as most Usonian Catholics manage to both be patriots and also put a lot of stock in the Pope.
Tom
 
Augustus,

I agree that "Islam is as Muslims do", and the Pew poll is a modern understanding of that. I'm basing my conclusions on historical actions to some degree, to studying the scripture itself, and to modern beliefs to a large degree. Whether my opinions happen to align with some traditional version of Islam would be just coincidental.

When you talk about studying the scripture itself you are adopting a particular hermeneutical framework and than castigating the Muslims who choose not to adopt the same one. The quote I posted explains the problems with this very clearly.

You are also adopting a particular approach to the poll which assumes that any degree of support for Sharia = theocracy, which is also problematic.

Even using your framework, the poll still shows very large numbers who are not in favour of a 'theocracy', yet you are asking them all to identify themselves and tell everyone that they are less Muslim than the Classical Sunnis because the Classical Sunnis got it 'right'.

Classical Sunnism though developed 100+ years after the birth of (proto)Islam, so there is another level of complexity to the equation. I don't think it is coincidental either that you arrived at Classical Sunnism, as it's pretty difficult to 'unknow' many things you learned about Islam that came that school of thought. Your beliefs didn't evolve organically from your own value free discovery, but based on what you were exposed to. You then put too much weight on what you believe Islam should normatively be, and you don't have enough interaction with Muslims to understand why what you are asking of Mr Khan is flawed and unrealistic.

Many of the points you make would be valid if you were less rigid in your thinking and accepted what you claim to understand. The diversity within Islam is makes is pointless to view it as a single ideology that 'moderates' must publicly announce their deviation from.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Hey Augustus,

(It's been a VERY busy week at work). I'm happy to say "some Muslims fly in the face of Islam and believe in secularism". But Mr. Khan would like to eat his cake and have it too, by ignoring much of Islam's nature and pretending that he can be a Muslim AND loyal to America first. I can believe that Mr. Khan can be loyal to America first - no issue there. But he cannot also be "just another Muslim". He could be a Muslim who's a member of a breakout denomination or sect, but he didn't say that. That's a major omission. By his statements, he wants us to believe that Islam is different than what it really is.
This sounds as strange to my ears as those who suggest that a person must identify as a 'hard' atheist just because they don't believe that there is a god.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Would you rest your understanding of "what Muslims believe" on "what the survey says?" I cannot.

Wow, I'm really lost here, and I'm going to work from the assumption that you're not gaslighting me here. The poll starts with the title "Beliefs about Sharia". So yes, I am choosing to give credence to a poll of 40,000 Muslims from around the world over most other sources. Out of curiosity, what sources would you trust more?

This sounds as strange to my ears as those who suggest that a person must identify as a 'hard' atheist just because they don't believe that there is a god.

I don't that's quite a valid comparison. My claim is that Islam IS - among other characteristics - theocratic by nature. Mr. Khan's statement is in conflict with my claim.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Here's the thing @icehorse.
Back when I was regularly spending time conversing with Muslims in Bloomington Ind. one of the things I often heard was variations on "I like the USA and religious freedom because nobody tells me how to be Muslim".
They were not representative of the whole Muslim world. They were highly educated and informed. They were living in Jesustan. They were talking to a gay atheist guest.
But I don't think that they were lying either. They were quite able to hold both religious freedom and their own religion in very high regard.
Just as most Usonian Catholics manage to both be patriots and also put a lot of stock in the Pope.
Tom

And as far as it goes, I can agree with this. But I'd add that you and your Bloomington Muslims were discussing a variation on Islam which is in conflict with basic Islam. Once again, I'd be THRILLED if such Muslims did us the courtesy of creating a denomination or sect to that effect.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Many of the points you make would be valid if you were less rigid in your thinking and accepted what you claim to understand. The diversity within Islam is makes is pointless to view it as a single ideology that 'moderates' must publicly announce their deviation from.

You seem to be misreading me. I'm concerned about "statistically significant" trends and beliefs. Depending on how conservative or aggressive you choose to be in your math, the poll indicates that between 30% and 60% of all the world's Muslims believe in Sharia. Those that believe in Sharia just happen to be in agreement with the most unbiased and parsimonious reading of the scripture. I allow for variations, I allow for outliers, I'm not trying to over generalize. But at some point generalizations and categorizations ARE useful and appropriate. I'm trying to "properly generalize", and I have a ton of data to support my generalizations. The world could not proceed if we were forced to abandon the proper use of generalizations and statistics.

You act as though we can draw no conclusions about Islam.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
That Mr. Khan may have some Muslim Brotherhood sympathies, or ties even, makes it all the more interesting.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Wow, I'm really lost here, and I'm going to work from the assumption that you're not gaslighting me here. The poll starts with the title "Beliefs about Sharia". So yes, I am choosing to give credence to a poll of 40,000 Muslims from around the world over most other sources. Out of curiosity, what sources would you trust more?
I am not disparaging your sources. I just asked for information that supports the claim that pursuing a theocracy is a core belief of Islam, and the statistics would have to be interpreted for me in order for me to understand how that conclusion comes about.

Look: one site states: "The legal systems of Muslim countries may be grouped in three: mixed systems, classical sharia systems and secular systems." It goes on to describe the three systems, to outline where they operate, and gives some history about how they came about in each of the locations, but finding an answer to my question in all that is a stretch. To me, that doesn't translate into the claim that theocracy is a core belief of Islam.

Then there's the recital of a survey result indicating that a huge number of Muslims think they should be ruled by Sharia law. How does that translate into Mr. Khan having to declare himself a denomination (just as 'hard' atheists are often asked to declare themselves on RF)? He believes what he believes as a Muslim, just as those who participated in the survey do. He believes what he believes no less as a Muslim than they do.
 
You seem to be misreading me. I'm concerned about "statistically significant" trends and beliefs. Depending on how conservative or aggressive you choose to be in your math, the poll indicates that between 30% and 60% of all the world's Muslims believe in Sharia.

Of course there are 'statistically significant' trends, but I disagree that they suggest Muslims who don't seek to establish Sharia Law in America are such an outlier that they should be forced to reveal themselves as a new 'unIslamic' sect.

I can also use your figures to say there is a statistically significant trend that supports my view that treating it as a single ideology is flawed.


Those that believe in Sharia just happen to be in agreement with the most unbiased and parsimonious reading of the scripture.

There is no such thing as an 'unbiased' reading of scripture, you have multiple influences that you can't overcome. Translation is an act of interpretation anyway, and the text you read contains the 'bias' of the translator, often reflecting extra Quranic sources, some dating centuries after Muhammed. Sharia Law was a product of 8th/9th C Iraq, not 7th C Arabia. The Arabs generally simply adopted the Persian and Roman legal codes pretty much wholesale early on.

Also, adopting a 'parsimonious' reading of scripture is itself an approach to hermeneutics reflecting a particular bias. You favour text only over history + text.

I allow for variations, I allow for outliers, I'm not trying to over generalize. But at some point generalizations and categorizations ARE useful and appropriate. I'm trying to "properly generalize", and I have a ton of data to support my generalizations. The world could not proceed if we were forced to abandon the proper use of generalizations and statistics.

You act as though we can draw no conclusions about Islam.

You can say many things about Islam, but according to your own statistics, you have just declared between 40-70% of the world's Muslims to be 'radically unIslamic'.

I can't see how this can be considered 'properly generalising' and supported by 'a ton of data'.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
The weirdest part for people to grasp is that virtually no one can speak, with authority, about Islam. It's all in interpretation and opinion.

You can say many things about Islam, but according to your own statistics, you have just declared between 40-70% of the world's Muslims to be 'radically unIslamic'.
That reminds me of the semi-famous Nonie Darwish, who once opined that, based on her experience, she believed that 30% of Muslims, living in the Muslim world, would leave Islam tomorrow if it was with impunity and no fear of any kind of reprisal - that they would drop it like a hot potato. The thing is, how do you prove or disprove such a suggestion? Even if asked, how many Muslims would reply honestly?
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi Augustus,

I've read Kahneman, and I understand the ubiquitous nature of biases. That said, a fella could use Kahneman to undermine ANY conversation.

I can't quite tell the degree to which you disagree with me, but I have a weird request. Even if you disagree with me conceptually, I suspect you understand where I'm coming from. I also suspect that part of your pushback is that you don't like the way in which I state my opinions. So here's the weird request. Would you be willing to try to restate my claims in language that you would find more acceptable or productive? Again, I'm not asking you to agree...

As far as "how to read the scripture", I don't buy your argument. It sounds to me like your argument means that only scholars and historians can "properly" interpret the scripture, and of course that's a huge problem for the 1.6 billion Muslims who aren't historians.
 

Olinda

Member
You seem to be misreading me. I'm concerned about "statistically significant" trends and beliefs. Depending on how conservative or aggressive you choose to be in your math, the poll indicates that between 30% and 60% of all the world's Muslims believe in Sharia. Those that believe in Sharia just happen to be in agreement with the most unbiased and parsimonious reading of the scripture. I allow for variations, I allow for outliers, I'm not trying to over generalize. But at some point generalizations and categorizations ARE useful and appropriate. I'm trying to "properly generalize", and I have a ton of data to support my generalizations. The world could not proceed if we were forced to abandon the proper use of generalizations and statistics.

You act as though we can draw no conclusions about Islam.


It seems to me that you are equating religious belief with scientific endorsement or rejection.
A religious scripture can be interpreted and understood in many ways, and each person has an individual level of acceptance and/or understanding.

When the Quakers aided escaping slaves they did not do so from a 'parsimonious' reading of the Bible, which does not condemn slavery anywhere. They also contravened the law that required the return of the slave to the 'owner'. Yet they acted in accordance with their conscience as Christians and loyal citizens.
 
That reminds me of the semi-famous Nonie Darwish, who once opined that, based on her experience, she believed that 30% of Muslims, living in the Muslim world, would leave Islam tomorrow if it was with impunity and no fear of any kind of reprisal - that they would drop it like a hot potato. The thing is, how do you prove or disprove such a suggestion?

Figure seems high to me, but as you note it's impossible to know.

There are lots of 'cultural Muslims' (rather than religious Muslims) out there though, who believe in God and keep a bit of the ritual now and then, but care little for the rules and regulations.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It seems to me that you are equating religious belief with scientific endorsement or rejection.
A religious scripture can be interpreted and understood in many ways, and each person has an individual level of acceptance and/or understanding.

When the Quakers aided escaping slaves they did not do so from a 'parsimonious' reading of the Bible, which does not condemn slavery anywhere. They also contravened the law that required the return of the slave to the 'owner'. Yet they acted in accordance with their conscience as Christians and loyal citizens.

Hi Olinda,

Based only on what you said in your post, I would say that the Quakers acted in ways that they felt were morally and ethically consistent with their religion. This is as opposed to a Muslim saying that his secular country is his first allegiance, which is in opposition to their religion.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Figure seems high to me, but as you note it's impossible to know.

There are lots of 'cultural Muslims' (rather than religious Muslims) out there though, who believe in God and keep a bit of the ritual now and then, but care little for the rules and regulations.

I'm interested in your phrase "cultural Muslim". I have this theory that a typical process is that folks to spread a religion through force end up changing local cultures. Once changed, the conquering religion acts as a sort of cultural flywheel, keeping the culture aligned with the religion from generation to generation. This would explain - for example - why Muslims across a huge swath of different regions have all adopted some Islamic cultural ideas and attitudes, like the desire for Sharia.
 
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