Killing the apostate! Islamic?? Whats the source? Whats there to consider?

[Gargovic Malkav]

1. Please show me what source has been quoted.
2. What are the nuances and problems with those sources?
3. How does any of these "sources" contradict the Qur'an?
4. Why do you think these arguments are valid?

Thanks.

I'm not going to have that discussion with you because I've seen many times how that turns out and I can't keep up with that.
If you don't see what I mean, then consider my comment irrelevant.

 

[firedragon]

Whether the Quran explicitly states that people making cartoons mocking Allah or Muhammed should be executed is immaterial.

But when there Quran explicitly says "do not mock a people" it matters.

When Quran says death sentence is only for murder or murder of innocents it matters.

The belief among many Muslims is that the Islamic religion does specify that people making cartoons mocking Allah or Muhammed should be executed.

Show me the research since this is an interesting statement.

Anyway, it is irrelevant. Try and respond to the OP instead.

The belief among many Muslims is that the Islamic religion does specify that Muslims opting out of Islam should be executed.

Show me the research on this.

And show me what are the sources of literature involved.

If these beliefs are wrong, why are they so prevalent?

Why are they prevalent is a great topic. Good for another thread. If you wish.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not going to have that discussion with you because I've seen many times how that turns out and I can't keep up with that.

But see, that is the exact discussion that is relevant to this thread.

I hope you understand.

 

[icehorse]

Where in the Quran does it make a "tone" that apostasy is such a crime that it should be punishable by death?

Please provide evidence to your claim.

The "where" in the Quran is scattered throughout the book. This tone is established in the first Surah and is repeated in most (if not all), of the Surahs that follow. Just as a few examples, in the first Surah we learn that Allah is angry with some non-Muslims. In the second Surah we learn that Allah has created some people to not believe, that and that they have a horrible fate in store for them. We learn that these people are hypocrites and that they think they can fool Allah, but they are the fools. And so on. And that's just in the first two Surahs.

That's why I keep telling you it's a pattern. You keep wanting to focusing on small, specific parts of the book, and I keep saying that it's also valid to zoom out, and look at the in from a broader perspective, and see patterns. Because human brains see patterns.

 

[firedragon]

The "where" in the Quran is scattered throughout the book. This tone is established in the first Surah and is repeated in most (if not all), of the Surahs that follow. Just as a few examples, in the first Surah we learn that Allah is angry with some non-Muslims. In the second Surah we learn that Allah has created some people to not believe, that and that they have a horrible fate in store for them. We learn that these people are hypocrites and that they think they can fool Allah, but they are the fools. And so on. And that's just in the first two Surahs.

That's why I keep telling you it's a pattern. You keep wanting to focusing on small, specific parts of the book, and I keep saying that it's also valid to zoom out, and look at the in from a broader perspective, and see patterns. Because human brains see patterns.

Where in the Quran does it make a "tone" that apostasy is such a crime that it should be punishable by death?

Please provide evidence to your claim.

 

[firedragon]

@icehorse

You will never substantiate your claim. It will never happen. So of course some rhetoric could be expected. If it takes 10 years, it will still be the same.

Where in the Quran does it make a "tone" that apostasy is such a crime that it should be punishable by death?

Please provide evidence to your claim.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nope. You are wrong. Maybe you didnt read the page you are sharing. It has nothing about the verse you quoted or that anyone used it to kill apostates.

So go back and please read the question.

I already cited from both the Quran and Hadith.
And apparently you are the one who didn't read it because it includes how the issue is debated among Muslims.

 

[Shakeel]

Perhaps we could ask him to cite which scholars he was reffering to?

It might be easier to say which ones are not referred to.

Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim - Islamweb - Fatwas
As for the Prophetic Sunnah which explains the Qur'an, Allah has made numerous great scholars to safeguard it. Those savants spared no effort to protect and record the Sunnah of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam). For example, Imam al-Bukhari Muhammad Ibn Ismael who, according Hatim Ibn Mansoor as recorded in The Book of al-Siyar by al-Zahabi, 'was a sign of Divine creation in his insight in knowledge'. Rajaa al-Hafiz said: 'Muhammad Ibn Ismael is as much superior to other scholars as men superior to women. He is one of Allah's miracles walking on earth'. Ibn Khuzaimah said: 'I have never seen on earth more learned in the Prophetic Hadith nor better in memorizing it that Muhammad Ibn Ismael al-Bukhari'.
In addition, Imam Muslim is as just and reliable as Imam al-Bukhari; both had the highest degree of memorization proficiency and truthfulness with Allah. Also the book of Sahih Muslim occupies the 2nd place after al-Bukhari; both books were received with full acceptance by the Muslim Ummah due to meeting all conditions of the highest degree for a sound Hadith. Only a straying innovator would contest anything of either book.
The aim of such an innovator is no more than destroying Sharia through his unreasonable doubts. They will fail because both of al-Salaf and al-Khalaf (predecessors and descendants) attest to the trustfulness of them.
In this vein, Imam al-Nawawi, while explaining Sahih Muslim, said: 'The Muslim scholar agreed upon the fact that Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are the most correct books after the Qur'an. The Muslim Ummah received them with full acceptance'.

Those would be the shias, the ahmadis and the general hadith rejectors.

 

[firedragon]

I already cited from both the Quran and Hadith.
And apparently you are the one who didn't read it because it includes how the issue is debated among Muslims.

Yeah I already replied saying the verse you cherry picked doesnt say anything about apostasy. So since you have not read tat post, and the next one, and the next one, I will cut and paste.

You said: verse 89 says to kill the apostate. You cherry picked it ignoring the immediate next verse and having never referred to the book anyway.
I said: It doesnt speak about apostates, and to at least read the immediate next verse rather than cherry picking.
Then you said: "Tell that to those who interpret stuff like that to mean kill apostates."
I asked: Who does that

So I think you understand the question. Your wikipedia link has nothing to do with this verse you provided and your claim that people interpret it as killing apostates.

So please provide some references to who interpreted the verse 4:89 as killing apostates and why. I ask for the second time.

After all, its your claim.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah I already replied saying the verse you cherry picked doesnt say anything about apostasy. So since you have not read tat post, and the next one, and the next one, I will cut and paste.

You said: verse 89 says to kill the apostate. You cherry picked it ignoring the immediate next verse and having never referred to the book anyway.
I said: It doesnt speak about apostates, and to at least read the immediate next verse rather than cherry picking.
Then you said: "Tell that to those who interpret stuff like that to mean kill apostates."
I asked: Who does that

So I think you understand the question. Your wikipedia link has nothing to do with this verse you provided and your claim that people interpret it as killing apostates.

So please provide some references to who interpreted the verse 4:89 as killing apostates and why. I ask for the second time.

After all, its your claim.

I'm not the one "cherry picking." I'm telling you what many Muslims use to justify their cruelty, violence, and militarily dominating others.
But I can guarantee you those Muslims would accuse you of the same. It's people lf the same religion but different denominations tend to do, and Muslims are their own greatest enemy and threat.
Go tell the ones blowing themselves and others up they are cherry picking. Inform Saudi Arabia and Iran they are doing it wrong.

 

[firedragon]

Those would be the shias, the ahmadis and the general hadith rejectors.

How about Imam Malik Ibn Annas? Tell me how your sectarian strife works on him!

How about Yahya ibn said alansari? How about Ibn Sireen? What did Al Qasim say (grand son of Abu Bakr Ral)? How about hafiz addhahabi? What did Ibn Maeen say?

Are they all Shii and Ahmadi mate? Show me how you will apply your sectarian strife onto them!

 

[firedragon]

I'm not the one "cherry picking.

Yes you did. You quoted one verse, falsely, without even reading the immediate next verse.

Thats cherry picking.

 

[firedragon]

Go tell the ones blowing themselves and others up they are cherry picking. Inform Saudi Arabia and Iran they are doing it wrong.

Not the topic of this thread to inform the terrorists and the Saudis. Anyway, none of them quote the Quran for apostasy laws that I have ever seen in any kind of literature ever in my entire life. So this is just a red herring fallacy.

Also, you are more extreme than all of them because it is you who is making false claims about one verse that has nothing to do with apostates. Of course you won't accept that you cut and pasted it without having a clue what it was.

There is not a single verse in the Qur'an speaking of killing an apostate. Thats the reason no one here has been able to provide a single verse. Because it doesnt exist.

So try. If you google "apostasy in Islam" you will come to a wikipedia page, and you already shared it which shows your level of research. Even that doesnt have a single verse of the Quran.

At least have the humility to accept that all you did was a cut and paste from some website but you never even read the immediate next verse.

 

[Shakeel]

How about Imam Malik Ibn Annas? Tell me how your sectarian strife works on him!

How about Yahya ibn said alansari? How about Ibn Sireen? What did Al Qasim say (grand son of Abu Bakr Ral)? How about hafiz addhahabi? What did Ibn Maeen say?

Are they all Shii and Ahmadi mate? Show me how you will apply your sectarian strife onto them!

You'll have to put your point into a coherent sentence. Don't expect me to begin guessing what you want to say.

 

[firedragon]

You'll have to put your point into a coherent sentence. Don't expect me to begin guessing what you want to say.

Thats fine. No need for any guessing. Just dont make absolutely false, sectarian remarks. You spoke of those Hadiths you quoted, and just made a sweeping statement "Those would be the shias, the ahmadis and the general hadith rejectors." in order to make a sectarian argument for your murderous cause.

So I ask you

How about Imam Malik Ibn Annas? Tell me how your sectarian strife works on him!

How about Yahya ibn said alansari? How about Ibn Sireen? What did Al Qasim say (grand son of Abu Bakr Ral)? How about hafiz addhahabi? What did Ibn Maeen say?

Are they all Shii and Ahmadi mate? Show me how you will apply your sectarian strife onto them!

Mate. They are all Sunni, and the closest to the source. Some of the most respected scholars you will ever come across. They are not Shii's or Ahmadi's. They are Sunni. And the oldest. All of them, without an exception, rejected all the ahadith narrated by Ikrima. When I say all, I mean "all".

Are you gonna call Imam Malik a Shii or Ahmadi?

I am sure you understand this question.

 

[firedragon]

This is for those who participated in this thread. If you like, this is an absolute synopsis. @danieldemol @Shadow Wolf @Shakeel

Murder in the name of God

In a nutshell, the Islamic scripture directly tells you never to take an innocent life. So says the Quran in chapter 5 verse 32 - “It is because of this that we have decreed for the Children of Israel: “Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people. “

Now notice that this verse says as a blanket statement that a person who has not committed murder should not be killed or even as a government give a death sentence. But there is a phrase here that many people misunderstand that says “or who has not committed corruption in the land” which is open for interpretation. The Arabic phrase “Al Fasadhu Fil Ardh (الفساد في الأرض)”, or corruption in the land has a definition which a lot of people have ignored. This maybe the boring part for the reader, but this also maybe a piercer of faith to the fanatic. Read further.

So says the Quran in chapter 27, verses 48 to 50, - “And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing corruption in the land, and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, …... “

Notice that it says “Swear by God”. This is what the Quran is saying by the phrase “Spreading corruption in the land”. These are the people the verse 5:32 above is speaking about and they are very clearly explained.

So it should be evident, that their claim of murdering innocents shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’, calls for Gods wrath on them, and the penalty is nothing but death. You murderer, your Quran is mandating a death sentence to you purely for murdering people using Gods name.

Bottomline: If you say Allah/God and kill an innocent human being, you are the scum of the earth according to the Quran. YOU

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Bottomline: If you say Allah/God and kill an innocent human being, you are the scum of the earth according to the Quran. YOU!

Go tell that to those who vigilante and kill someone they know who became or was perceived to have become an apostate.
This is a problem with both Christianity and Islam. There are multiple points of view, no one can definitively prove themselves correct, verses and passages get thrown around,and the argument eternally goes on. There are even many who are so strong in their beliefs they are correct and those of a different denomination are wrong that they will view the other as evil and seek to kill them; or we just say "the history of Medieval Christian Europe and the modern Islamic Middle East." (they seem to have switched sides over the centuries)

 

[firedragon]

Go tell that to those who vigilante and kill someone

Why dont you do that? Why not stop everything and do what you tell others to do?

This is not relevant to the thread. Im sure you know that.

Have a blast.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

This is for those who participated in this thread. If you like, this is an absolute synopsis. @danieldemol @Shadow Wolf @Shakeel @Gargovic Malkav

Murder in the name of God

In a nutshell, the Islamic scripture directly tells you never to take an innocent life. So says the Quran in chapter 5 verse 32 - “It is because of this that we have decreed for the Children of Israel: “Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people. “

Now notice that this verse says as a blanket statement that a person who has not committed murder should not be killed or even as a government give a death sentence. But there is a phrase here that many people misunderstand that says “or who has not committed corruption in the land” which is open for interpretation. The Arabic phrase “Al Fasadhu Fil Ardh (الفساد في الأرض)”, or corruption in the land has a definition which a lot of people have ignored. This maybe the boring part for the reader, but this also maybe a piercer of faith to the fanatic. Read further.

So says the Quran in chapter 27, verses 48 to 50, - “And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing corruption in the land, and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, …... “

Notice that it says “Swear by God”. This is what the Quran is saying by the phrase “Spreading corruption in the land”. These are the people the verse 5:32 above is speaking about and they are very clearly explained.

So it should be evident, that their claim of murdering innocents shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’, calls for Gods wrath on them, and the penalty is nothing but death. You murderer, your Quran is mandating a death sentence to you purely for murdering people using Gods name.

Bottomline: If you say Allah/God and kill an innocent human being, you are the scum of the earth according to the Quran. YOU!

You're preaching to the choir.
I share your view that the Quran doesn't advocate the execution of apostates, and I personally don't really care about Hadith and other Islamic writings but that's not the reason why I said what I said.

The reason why I said what I said was that I notice a pattern in your behaviour where you always respond in a dismissive manner to people who contradict you and make it all about your own views, even though your OPs often seem to suggest an interest in other people's views.

 

[firedragon]

You're preaching to the choir.
I share your view that the Quran doesn't advocate the execution of apostates, and I personally don't really care about Hadith and other Islamic writings but that's not the reason why I said what I said.

The reason why I said what I said was that I notice a pattern in your behaviour where you always respond in a dismissive manner to people who contradict you and make it all about your own views, even though your OPs often seem to suggest an interest in other people's views.

Brother. I dont know what your views are. I just tagged you in that post since you participated in this thread.

But sorry I did that. Since you sound quite offended for tagging you accusing me of "preaching to the choir", I will go back and edit the post and delete your name.

So apologies. It will not happen again.

For your information, when someone states a view, he should show some analysis to come up with that view. Just saying something, or a cut and paste, or cherry picking one part of a sentence, are not views.

You are saying I am preaching to the choir, but you dont see repeated falsehood. Also you should know, I know exactly what most of these people are talking about because they have been repeating the same cherry picking for years and years in this very forum.

Yet, once in a while, someone comes up and makes a suggestion or a view that can overturn existing scholarship. It has happened in this very forum. I will never forget one guy making a case about something in relation to historical parallels and source criticism that blew my mind. He never knew he had a gem with him.

Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Peace.