Killing the apostate! Islamic?? Whats the source? Whats there to consider?

[firedragon]

I read the whole post, took it all into account, then responded to what I saw as relevant in my opinion.

Daniel. Everything is relevant. I can't go post hunting now, so I will try to summarise, once more. I have given some more explanation to this gentleman who's posts and scholars you were quoting many times so when you have some time, read up.

The most important methodology of validation in the Sunni schools of Shafii and Hanbali and consequent Salafi, Wahabi, Deobandi, and other sects is the Isnad. I said this because by deciding not to take a narrator into account, he completely invalidated his own theology. The chain of narrations. So according to them, this is one of the most important aspects to validate a hadith. But even according to them, the Quran is the key, the criterion, the yardstick, the Furqan, the Muhameenun. Thats why I said you were misquoting me when you tried to sum up what I was saying. You absolutely misrepresented what I was saying. For them, the Quran is Gods word, and is the criterion. Please be kind enough to read up on their theology a bit because you are making nonsensical claims.

So, taking two ahadith, one speaking about what Ali did, both going to one guy who is absolutely dubious according many many sources I have given in this same thread, this hadith is not valid. Thats the whole point.

The other hadith that you kept on asking about ignoring this is from Nasai and is someone else saying "this is God and the prophets law" but it does not go back to the prophet. It is someone else's claim. In Aqidah, it is not valid Sunnah "ACCODING TO EVEN THE SALAFI'S".

Also I gave you an extensive explanation about the validation of ahadith and the nuances, which of course you have ignored. Do you have a problem asking a question and clarifying about another theology with a bit of humility mate? Just ask. You will not lose anything. After all, this is an Internet forum so your reputation won't be affected in the real world for asking a humble question. Dont make statements you dont understand.

Let me cut and paste one post I gave this guy so that you could read it. He of course asked for sources and never responded after that since the sources are valid and he may know they are. You, just like this other guy, immediately try to force someone to a sect, either Quranite, or Shii, or something. Thats because you dont understand the theology from anyones point of view. You think the Salafi's dont give precedence to the Quran? Thats nonsense. According to their theology, the Quran is still all of that I explained above.

Read these.
#120
#118

 

[danieldemol]

The other hadith that you kept on asking about ignoring this is from Nasai and is someone else saying "this is God and the prophets law" but it does not go back to the prophet. It is someone else's claim. In Aqidah, it is not valid Sunnah "ACCODING TO EVEN THE SALAFI'S".

Ok, this appears to be new information you are sharing, but my question to you is if @Shakeel 's scholars don't regard that as valid sunnah, why are they (presumably) quoting this hadith to Shakeel and (presumably) telling him it is sahih and sarih?
Can you see how the two dont add up? What am I missing here?

 

[Shakeel]

He of course asked for sources and never responded after that since the sources are valid and he may know they are.

The reason I haven't responded to your claim about certain people rejecting Ikrima's narrations is that you provided no specific source and I guess you expect me to purchase a copy of every book each of them has ever written so that I may perhaps find what you claim is there?

I searched it and found a single dubious amateur website saying something similar to what you say. I simply don't have time to do your job of verifying your claims and then responding to them. It's not worth it and the whole tactic seems like dishonesty on your part.

You want to confuse people. You don't actually want them to understand. You just want them to get tired of discussing so that you can pretend you were the more knowledgeable one, even though much, if not most, of what you say are lies.

 

[danieldemol]

@firedragon why dont you just scan the relevant pages of the books you are talking about then email them to @Shakeel along with a copy of the title page, that doesnt seem like a big ask if you own those books.

 

[firedragon]

The reason I haven't responded to your claim about certain people rejecting Ikrima's narrations is that you provided no specific source

Not true. All very very specific sources. If you are expecting a website, I am not the character you should look for. Ask someone else for websites.

I searched it and found a single dubious amateur website saying something similar to what you say. I

Yep. As I thought I can see the type of sources you are looking for.

I cannot have "your website against my website" debates. I will not do that, so please dont expect me to respond with "website after websites" as sources. Go to primary sources.

Have a good day.

 

[firedragon]

@firedragon why dont you just scan the relevant pages of the books you are talking about then email them to @Shakeel along with a copy of the title page, that doesnt seem like a big ask if you own those books.

No.

 

[firedragon]

Ok, this appears to be new information you are sharing, but my question to you is if @Shakeel 's scholars don't regard that as valid sunnah, why are they (presumably) quoting this hadith to Shakeel and (presumably) telling him it is sahih and sarih?

That, you should ask this person. Asking me why someone elses whoever did whatever is one of the most lame questions one could ask. I can't believe you just acted like that.

I asked him several times who are these scholars he keeps speaking about, and why he agrees with them. Was never answered. Since you seem to be so curious, why dont you like you suggested earlier, have a private conversation with him and enlighten us here since you are so interested in asking me about someone else's business?

 

[danieldemol]

No.

No what? Is it a big ask or are you just saying you won't do it?

 

[danieldemol]

That, you should ask this person. Asking me why someone elses whoever did whatever is one of the most lame questions one could ask. I can't believe you just acted like that.

I asked him several times who are these scholars he keeps speaking about, and why he agrees with them. Was never answered. Since you seem to be so curious, why dont you like you suggested earlier, have a private conversation with him and enlighten us here since you are so interested in asking me about someone else's business?

Sometimes people may know or understand why the scholars acted in a certain way, but if you do not know that is fine.

@Shakeel quotes from sunnah.com in post #2, so I am probably better off asking sunnah.com directly who the scholars are on their contact page, but it may take some time to get a response.

If I get one and this thread has become old I will try find it if the response seems relevant and engage in a little thread necromancy.

 

[firedragon]

Sometimes people may know or understand why the scholars acted in a certain way,

Which scholars, what did they say, why do you agree or disagree with them, what were their sources?

 

[firedragon]

@Shakeel quotes from sunnah.com in post #2

Err. A list of hadith is not a scholars assessment. Its just a cut and paste, and you very well know this.

so I am probably better off asking sunnah.com directly who the scholars are on their contact page, but it may take some time to get a response.

this shows you dont even know what a scholar is and what they do.

 

[danieldemol]

Which scholars, what did they say, why do you agree or disagree with them, what were their sources?

The scholars who wrote sunnah.com (assuming it was scholars who wrote it). I have contacted them to find out what they have to say, and without knowing what they have to say I can't know if I agree with part or all of what they are saying. I may have to do a follow up email to them to find their sources but I will see what their reply is like to the first email.

 

[danieldemol]

Err. A list of hadith is not a scholars assessment. Its just a cut and paste, and you very well know this.

this shows you dont even know what a scholar is and what they do.

Ok, but I asked what their scholars assessment was in the email I sent them (assuming they have scholars who can assess these ahadith)

 

[danieldemol]

@firedragon , this is the email I sent them FYI;

'Hi,
Do your scholars say that the following hadith is both Sahih and Sarih (reliable)?

Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet (ﷺ) along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash`ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'O Abu Musa (O `Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or `Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu`adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu`adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu`adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu`adh to sit down but Mu`adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

The reason I ask is because a Muslim gentleman told me that, 'this is from Nasai and is someone else saying "this is God and the prophets law" but it does not go back to the prophet. It is someone else's claim. In Aqidah, it is not valid Sunnah "ACCODING TO EVEN THE SALAFI'S".'

So my question is if the scholars do not consider it valid sunnah why is it considered by the scholars to be both sahih and sarih, and what are the names of those scholars?

For background you may wish to see: Killing the apostate! Islamic?? Whats the source? Whats there to consider?'

If there is any misconceptions there in my email and they have scholars at hand im sure their scholars will be able to set me straight.

 

[firedragon]

The scholars who wrote sunnah.com (assuming it was scholars who wrote it).

Hilarious mate. You are absolutely hilarious. Sorry, I cannot engage with this kind of ignorance.

Again let me try telling you that a list is not scholarly work. A list is a list. Scholars take these lists, analyse, apply criticism, and make a hypothesis, then test them using some sciences and research.

I will not engage with this kind of thing again.

 

[firedragon]

@firedragon , this is the email I sent them FYI;

'Hi,
Do your scholars say that the following hadith is both Sahih and Sarih (reliable)?

Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet (ﷺ) along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash`ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'O Abu Musa (O `Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or `Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu`adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu`adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu`adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu`adh to sit down but Mu`adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

The reason I ask is because a Muslim gentleman told me that, 'this is from Nasai and is someone else saying "this is God and the prophets law" but it does not go back to the prophet. It is someone else's claim. In Aqidah, it is not valid Sunnah "ACCODING TO EVEN THE SALAFI'S".'

So my question is if the scholars do not consider it valid sunnah why is it considered by the scholars to be both sahih and sarih, and what are the names of those scholars?

For background you may wish to see: Killing the apostate! Islamic?? Whats the source? Whats there to consider?'

If there is any misconceptions there in my email and they have scholars at hand im sure their scholars will be able to set me straight.

Congratulations.

 

[firedragon]

Ok, but I asked what their scholars assessment was in the email I sent them (assuming they have scholars who can assess these ahadith)

Nice. Ask them to name the scholar, the analysis, and make commentary on it why you side with them.

Interesting and congrats again.

 

[danieldemol]

Hilarious mate. You are absolutely hilarious. Sorry, I cannot engage with this kind of ignorance.

Again let me try telling you that a list is not scholarly work. A list is a list. Scholars take these lists, analyse, apply criticism, and make a hypothesis, then test them using some sciences and research.

I will not engage with this kind of thing again.

Ok, I assumed the list was translated by a scholar from the original Arabic, but maybe that's just ignorance on my part

 

[firedragon]

Ok, I assumed the list was translated by a scholar from the original Arabic, but maybe that's just ignorance on my part

What does translation have to do with anything my brother. One can take translation from so many translations. Translations will definitely be done by scholars. If you want lists, you could go to an anti islamic evangelical website like answeringislam or even some pseudo scholar like Anish Shorosh who got arrested like so many others for fraud. Lists can be found anywhere. And all of them take a translation from someones translation.

What does that have anything to do with what the discussion is? I dont know this website very well, but it is just a cut and paste of books of ahadith. It seems like a very good resource of course, but its just a list. If you want scholars you have to go to someone like lets say Ibn Hajar. Thats just an explanation. Ibn Hajar was a very hadith following scholar of Usul ul hadith. One of the most famous and accepted in the hadith absolutists world, as well as the older traditions. Thats a scholar. He is not a translator, but a scholar in hadith science. I just gave one example.

If you are looking for hadith translators, he is not a scholar of Usul al hadith, he is a scholar of arabic. Its chalk and cheese. Its like Robert Cawdrey and a Bible scholar like Cardinal Umberto. Like Malik Ibn Anas and Nasruddin al hathab from Canada who is a translator.

Out of respect to you, let me give an example of a page scan you asked me to furnish to this gentleman Shakeel above. He is a Muslim, so he and you are different people. Let me give you an example of Ibn Hajar, and what a cut and paste would look like in this image. This is from thakreeb al thahzeeb. Just FYI. This begins with "Alhamdulillahi wakafaa wassalaamu alaa".

This book shows that Aisha was around 20 when she married the prophet. Now Im sure you won't like it, but this is a book that I quoted earlier. So what do you want me to do? Which page do you want me to take scans and email people? What a ridiculous request are you making? You will note that I never quoted these books to you because I know that you dont have the resources. But I quoted them to a Muslim because he does. Thats the reason you should not conflate everything and make such absurd requests. It is beneath you.

Please try to take a higher road.

Peace.

 

[danieldemol]

What does translation have to do with anything my brother. One can take translation from so many translations. Translations will definitely be done by scholars. If you want lists, you could go to an anti islamic evangelical website like answeringislam or even some pseudo scholar like Anish Shorosh who got arrested like so many others for fraud.

Do you think that sunnah.com is an anti Islamic website?
Do you think it is a fraud website?

If you want scholars you have to go to someone like lets say Ibn Hajar. Thats just an explanation. Ibn Hajar was a very hadith following scholar of Usul ul hadith. One of the most famous and accepted in the hadith absolutists world, as well as the older traditions. Thats a scholar. He is not a translator, but a scholar in hadith science. I just gave one example.

If you are looking for hadith translators, he is not a scholar of Usul al hadith, he is a scholar of arabic. Its chalk and cheese. Its like Robert Cawdrey and a Bible scholar like Cardinal Umberto. Like Malik Ibn Anas and Nasruddin al hathab from Canada who is a translator.

Ok, I just assumed that they were good translators and that good translators would either consult with or be hadith scholars themselves, but it is human to make wrong assumptions some times, no big deal.

Out of respect to you, let me give an example of a page scan you asked me to furnish to this gentleman Shakeel above. He is a Muslim, so he and you are different people. Let me give you an example of Ibn Hajar, and what a cut and paste would look like in this image. This is from thakreeb al thahzeeb. Just FYI. This begins with "Alhamdulillahi wakafaa wassalaamu alaa".

I said a scan, not a cut and paste. If you have it on file that you can copy paste from why not just send the whole file?

This book shows that Aisha was around 20 when she married the prophet.

How is this relevant to what you referenced to shakeel?

Which page do you want me to take scans and email people?

The pages you cited to Shakeel about ikrima being a karijite.

You will note that I never quoted these books to you because I know that you dont have the resources. But I quoted them to a Muslim because he does.

You assume he has access to them even after he told you he does not?