• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The Bahais/Bahaism people! Please continue believing what all of you have been given to understand about Bab, Abdul Baha, Shoghí Effendí and UHJ . I have no objection to it. Yet, their writings/speeches add no value to us, please.Right, please?
Kindly restrict to Iqan, please.

Regards

No value would imply they require little effort to obtain, or little effort to throw away

You take great efforts to show they are of no use, but at the same time have the pleplexity that these writings were written with the blood of tens of thousands of saints, just as the Bible foretold.

The quandary is that many millions have also embrace the wisdom as God given.

The Kitab-i-Iqan tells all the story of God's given Faiths, from the first day of God until the Last day of God and includes the wisdom as to how to embrace all that is from God and not our own selves. Thus the validity of and the usefulness of the Kitab-i-Iqan is PRICELESS, Timeless and well that is for a Baha'i anyway :)

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
"as if you have already decided long ago"

That doesn't restrict me from a sincere search/research for the truth and to accept Truth where-ever I find it with reasons and argument through a peaceful dialogue. In fact that would mean that the prayer as mentioned in the OP and I repeat:

[1:1]بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ﴿۱﴾
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2]اَلۡحَمۡدُ لِلّٰہِ رَبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۲﴾
All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3]الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ۙ﴿۳﴾
The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4]مٰلِکِ یَوۡمِ الدِّیۡنِ ؕ﴿۴﴾
Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5]اِیَّاکَ نَعۡبُدُ وَ اِیَّاکَ نَسۡتَعِیۡنُ ؕ﴿۵﴾
Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6]اِہۡدِ نَا الصِّرَاطَ الۡمُسۡتَقِیۡمَ ۙ﴿۶﴾
Guide us in the right path —
[1:7]صِرَاطَ الَّذِیۡنَ اَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ۬ۙ غَیۡرِ الۡمَغۡضُوۡبِ عَلَیۡہِمۡ وَ لَا الضَّآلِّیۡنَ ٪﴿۷﴾
The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
Right, please/

Regards

Who is Allah, what do you know of Allah, what is it you see when All praise is given ? :)

Who is the Master of the Day of Judgement? For a Baha'i that is Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Quote, "Every Writing by the Bab and Baha'u'llah were revealed from God, just as the Quran. The difference in this day is that the Messengers wrote a lot of it with their own hands."Unquote

Friend! I know that is one's belief, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason. Right, please? Or is one's belief a blindfaith, please?

We take verses 6-10 of Iqan :

6
اگر بر ابتلای انبياء و علّت و سبب اعتراضات عباد بر آن شموس هويّه آگاه شويد بر اکثری از امور اطّلاع يابيد و ديگر هر چه اعتراضات مردم را بر مشارق شموس صفات احديّه بيشتر ملاحظه کنيد در دين خود و امراللّه محکم تر و راسخ تر شويد. لهذا بعضی از حکايات انبياء مجملاً در اين الواح ذکر می شود تا معلوم شود و مبرهن آيد که در جميع اعصار و اقران بر مظاهر قدرت ٤ و مطالع عزّت وارد می آوردند آنچه را که قلم از ذکرش خجل و منفعل است. شايد اين اذکار سبب شود که بعضی از ناس از اعراض و اعتراض علماء و جهّال عصر مضطرب نشوند و بلکه بر ايقان و اطمينانشان بيفزايد.
7
و از جمله انبياء نوح بود که نهصد و پنجاه سال نوحه نمود و عباد را به وادی ايمن روح دعوت فرمود و احدی او را اجابت ننمود. و در هر يوم به قدری ايذاء و اذيّت بر آن وجود مبارک وارد می آوردند که يقين بر هلاکت او می نمودند. و چه مراتب سخريّه و استهزاء و کنايه که بر آن حضرت وارد شد چنانچه می فرمايد: "و کُلَّمَا مَرَّ عَلَيهِ مَلَأٌ مِن قَومِهِ سَخِرُوا مِنهُ قَالَ اِن تَسخَرُوا مِنَّا فَإنَّا نَسخَرُ مِنکُمْ کَمَا تَسخَرُونَ فَسَوفَ تَعلَمُونَ." ۳ و بعد از مدّت ها چند مرتبه وعده انزال نصر به اصحاب خود فرمودند به وعده معيّن و در هر مرتبه بدا شد. و بعضی از آن اصحاب معدوده به علّت ظهور بدا اعراض می نمودند چنانچه تفصيل آن در اکثر کتب مشهوره ثبت شده و البتّه بنظر عالی رسيده يا می رسد. تا آنکه باقی نماند از برای آن حضرت مگر چهل نفس و يا هفتاد و دو نفس چنانچه در کتب و اخبار مذکور است. تا آنکه بالاخره نداء "رَبِّ لا تَذَر عَلَی الاَرضِ مِنَ الکافِرينَ دَيَّاراً" ۴ از جان بر کشيد.
8
حال قدری تأمّل بايد ۵
که سبب چه بود در اين مدّت آن عباد به اين قسم اعتراض نمودند و احتراز جستند و از قميص نفی به خلع اثبات مفتخر و فائز نشدند؟ و ديگر چرا در وعده های الهی بدا شد که سبب ادبار بعضی مقبلين شود؟ بسيار تأمّل بايد تا بر اسرار امور غيبی واقف شويد و از طيب معنوی گلستان حقيقی بوئی بريد و تصديق نمائيد که امتحانات الهيّه هميشه در ما بين عباد او بوده و خواهد بود تا نور از ظلمت و صدق از کذب و حقّ از باطل و هدايت از ضلالت و سعادت از شقاوت و خار از گل ممتاز و معلوم شود. چنانچه فرمود: "الم اَحَسِبَ النَّاسُ اَن يُترکُوا اَن يَقُولُوا آمَنَّا وَ هُم لا يُفتَنُونَ." ۵
9
و بعد از نوح جمال هود از مَشرق ابداع مُشرق شد و قريب هفتصد سنه اَو ازيد به اختلاف اقوال، مردم را به رضوان قرب ذی الجلال دعوت نمود. و چه مقدار بلايا که به مثل غيث هاطل بر آن حضرت باريد تا آنکه کثرت دعوت سبب کثرت اعراض شد و شدّت اهتمام علّت شدّت اغماض گرديد. "وَ لا يَزيدُ الکَافِرينَ کُفْرُهُم إلّا خَسَاراً. " ۶
10
و بعد هيکل صالحی از رضوان غيبی معنوی قدم بيرون نهاد و عباد را به شريعه قرب باقيه دعوت نمود و صد سنه اَو ازيد امر به اوامر الهی و نهی از مناهی می فرمود، ثمری نبخشيد و اثری ظاهر نيامد. و چند ۷ و هيچ فائده نبخشيد تا آنکه به صيحه ای جميع به نار راجع شدند.
۳
[ بازگشت به مرجع][ سوره هود، آيه ۳۹-۳۸ ]
۴
[ سوره نوح، آيه ٢٦ ][ بازگشت به مرجع]
۵
[ بازگشت به مرجع][ سوره عنکبوت، آيه ٢ ]
۶
[ بازگشت به مرجع][ سوره فاطر، آيه ٣٩ ]


مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ١-١٥

Now its English Translation, please:
6
Should you acquaint yourself with the indignities heaped upon the Prophets of God, and apprehend the true causes of the objections voiced by their oppressors, you will surely appreciate the significance of their position. Moreover, the more closely you observe the denials of those who have opposed the Manifestations of the divine attributes, the firmer will be your faith in the Cause of God. Accordingly, a brief mention will be made in this Tablet of divers accounts relative to the Prophets of God, that they may demonstrate the truth that throughout all ages and centuries the Manifestations of power and glory have been subjected to such heinous cruelties that no pen dare describe them. Perchance this may enable a few to cease to be perturbed by the clamour and protestations 7 of the divines and the foolish of this age, and cause them to strengthen their confidence and certainty.
7
Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’” 3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and 4
8
And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of this people. What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part? What could have induced them to refuse to put off the garment of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance? Moreover, what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when 5
9
And after Noah the light of the countenance of Húd shone forth above the horizon of creation. For well-nigh seven hundred years, according to the sayings of men, He exhorted the people to turn their faces and draw nearer unto the Riḍván of the divine presence. What showers of afflictions rained upon Him, until at last His adjurations bore the fruit of increased rebelliousness, and His assiduous endeavours resulted in the wilful blindness of His people. “And their unbelief shall only increase for the unbelievers their own perdition.” 6
10
And after Him there appeared from the Riḍván of the Eternal, the Invisible, the holy person of Ṣáliḥ, Who again summoned the people to the river of everlasting life. For over a hundred years He admonished them to hold fast unto the commandments of God and eschew that which is forbidden. His admonitions, however, yielded no fruit, and His pleading proved of no avail. Several times He retired and lived in seclusion. All this, although that eternal Beauty was summoning 7 All this proved fruitless, until at last there went up a great cry, and all fell into utter perdition.
1. Qur’án 36:30. [ Back To Reference]
2. Qur’án 40:5. [ Back To Reference]
3. Qur’án 11:38. [ Back To Reference]
4. Qur’án 71:26.[ Back To Reference]
5. Qur’án 29:2.[ Back To Reference]
6. Qur’án 35:39. [ Back To Reference]
7. Qur’án 11:61, 62. [ Back To Reference]

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

Is there any natural word/s in the text of the above verses that indicates that these verses are a Direct Verse from/by G-d addressed to Bahaullah, please?
On the same lines that I have adopted for Quran in my post #281, please . Right, please?
If one is not easy with Farsi Iqan to highlight one could highlight in the English translation, no harm, please.
Anybody, please.

Regards
 
Last edited:

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
"as if you have already decided long ago"

That doesn't restrict me from a sincere search/research for the truth and to accept Truth where-ever I find it with reasons and argument through a peaceful dialogue. In fact that would mean that the prayer as mentioned in the OP and I repeat:

[1:1]بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ﴿۱﴾
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2]اَلۡحَمۡدُ لِلّٰہِ رَبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۲﴾
All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3]الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ۙ﴿۳﴾
The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4]مٰلِکِ یَوۡمِ الدِّیۡنِ ؕ﴿۴﴾
Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5]اِیَّاکَ نَعۡبُدُ وَ اِیَّاکَ نَسۡتَعِیۡنُ ؕ﴿۵﴾
Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6]اِہۡدِ نَا الصِّرَاطَ الۡمُسۡتَقِیۡمَ ۙ﴿۶﴾
Guide us in the right path —
[1:7]صِرَاطَ الَّذِیۡنَ اَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ۬ۙ غَیۡرِ الۡمَغۡضُوۡبِ عَلَیۡہِمۡ وَ لَا الضَّآلِّیۡنَ ٪﴿۷﴾
The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
Right, please/

Regards

So who are those Allāh guides and who does has gone astray? Sunni Muslims, Shi’a Muslims, Ahmadiyya Muslims, the Baha’is or some other group.

The following anti-Baha’i polemic appears on the Ahmadiyya Muslim website:

https://www.alislam.org/library/books/babi-and-bahai.pdf

Any organisation that promotes calumny and slander is not guided by Allah IMHO.

What you call sincere search of truth looks little more than confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
...........................................................
Baha'u'llah's works need to be considered as a whole and in light of the authoritative interpretations and elaborations provided by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. We also need to consider the Bab's Revelation and the authority of the Universal House of Justice to resolve and clarify difficulties. So it would be a mistake to read the Kitab-i-Iqan is isolation..

On the side of the thread....... does this mean that the Bab's instructions to Bahais were direct orders from God?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Quote,
"Every Writing by the Bab and Baha'u'llah were revealed from God, just as the Quran. The difference in this day is that the Messengers wrote a lot of it with their own hands."Unquote

@Tony Bristow-Stagg ...... Hi..... Sis you write the sentence, above?

If so, can you explain why the Bab wrote sentences such as :-

OF THE BĀB.
Surah 98. Oh warriors of the Truth, when you stand in lines in a war against unbelievers, do not fear their great numbers, because We have written fear on their hearts. Kill each and every of them and do not let one of them remain on earth."

Surah 97 that means: Oh Believers! Take and occupy every city and its inhabitants for God's religion and do not accept from them a money in exchange ..."


??[
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
On the side of the thread....... does this mean that the Bab's instructions to Bahais were direct orders from God?
There were no Baha’is during the Bab’s Ministry. The central purpose of the Bab’s Ministry was to prepare His Followers to recognise Him whom God shall make manifest. Bahá’u’lláh was widely regarded by the Babis as that Promised One.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
@Tony Bristow-Stagg ...... Hi..... Sis you write the sentence, above?

If so, can you explain why the Bab wrote sentences such as :-

OF THE BĀB.
Surah 98. Oh warriors of the Truth, when you stand in lines in a war against unbelievers, do not fear their great numbers, because We have written fear on their hearts. Kill each and every of them and do not let one of them remain on earth."

Surah 97 that means: Oh Believers! Take and occupy every city and its inhabitants for God's religion and do not accept from them a money in exchange ..."


??[
Source please.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
As I understand it, the Ahmadiyya movement is an attempt to take Islam back to its allegedly pure form based on the four rightly guided Caliphs as believed by Sunni Islam. So Muhammad is seen as the final Prophet of all time and the Quran as God’s guidance to humanity for all time. The major problems with that approach is there are laws in the Quran that are no longer suited to our modern era of history. Any attempt to force laws from a bygone era such as condign punishments for theft and adultery into the modern world will fail.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
@Tony Bristow-Stagg ...... Hi..... Sis you write the sentence, above?

If so, can you explain why the Bab wrote sentences such as :-

OF THE BĀB.
Surah 98. Oh warriors of the Truth, when you stand in lines in a war against unbelievers, do not fear their great numbers, because We have written fear on their hearts. Kill each and every of them and do not let one of them remain on earth."

Surah 97 that means: Oh Believers! Take and occupy every city and its inhabitants for God's religion and do not accept from them a money in exchange ..."


??[

Source please.

Yes source of quote please.

Regards Tony
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
As I understand it, the Ahmadiyya movement is an attempt to take Islam back to its allegedly pure form based on the four rightly guided Caliphs as believed by Sunni Islam. So Muhammad is seen as the final Prophet of all time and the Quran as God’s guidance to humanity for all time. The major problems with that approach is there are laws in the Quran that are no longer suited to our modern era of history. Any attempt to force laws from a bygone era such as condign punishments for theft and adultery into the modern world will fail.

Friend! While making comparative study of religions/no-religions one should concentrate and focus:
Right, please?

Regards
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Its first part "Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d", is my understanding, please, and the other part is a question, please. Right, please?

Regards
Where did Bahaullah learn all those to write them in Iqan? I mean, if we think, it was not God who revealed it, then we must be able to answer this question: Where did Bahaullah study and learn all the information He wrote in Iqan? Please try to give an unbiased, well-informed answer.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Friend! While making comparative study of religions/no-religions one should concentrate and focus:
Right, please?

Regards

If you wanted to convince your fellow Muslims that your faith is Islamic, that is a reasonable approach. Many Muslims reject Ahmadiyya Islam of course, so establishing your core beliefs based on the core principles of Islam is sensible. But that does not address the concern raised which is about the application of Quranic laws in our modern world. For example:

Hudud - Wikipedia
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
If you wanted to convince your fellow Muslims that your faith is Islamic, that is a reasonable approach. Many Muslims reject Ahmadiyya Islam of course, so establishing your core beliefs based on the core principles of Islam is sensible. But that does not address the concern raised which is about the application of Quranic laws in our modern world. For example:

Hudud - Wikipedia
That is a subject of another thread. I have discussed it already in some threads. Right, please?
Nevertheless the petty subjects cannot prevail over the core subjects, please. Right, please?

Regards
 
Last edited:

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
That is a subject of another thread. I have discussed it already in some threads. Right, please?
Nevertheless the petty subject cannot prevail over the core subjects, please. Right, please?

Regards

The core subject of the Kitab-i-Iqan is the Oneness of God in the recognition and acceptance of all of God's Messenger's.

Thus @InvestigateTruth asked where did Baha'u'llah get that knowledge from?

You have now read this Tablet from Baha'u'llah, that a Baha'i sees comes from God. Thus it is now your choice of heart to decide. It is you that has to ask of one's own self, Do I see the Power of the Words in the Quran, in the Words of the Kitab-i-Iqan.

Maybe you already do and that is what inspires these threads, maybe you do not want it to be so?

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That is a subject of another thread. I have discussed it already in some threads. Right, please?
Nevertheless the petty subject cannot prevail over the core subjects, please. Right, please?

Regards

What is petty for one is of profound importance to another.

You wish to know how we can determine whether or not Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings in the Kitab-i-Iqan. Consider the criteria we would use to establish whether the Quran was from God or Muhammad and apply the same standards to the Baha’i Writings.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The core subject of the Kitab-i-Iqan is the Oneness of God in the recognition and acceptance of all of God's Messenger's.

Thus @InvestigateTruth asked where did Baha'u'llah get that knowledge from?

You have now read this Tablet from Baha'u'llah, that a Baha'i sees comes from God. Thus it is now your choice of heart to decide. It is you that has to ask of one's own self, Do I see the Power of the Words in the Quran, in the Words of the Kitab-i-Iqan.

Maybe you already do and that is what inspires these threads, maybe you do not want it to be so?

Regards Tony
"Oneness of God"

Friend @Tony Bristow-Stagg !
ONE G-d appoints His Messengers/Prophets with a Direct Converse with them. This thread will establish if G-d had had a Direct Converse with Bahaullah in the Pre-Covenant period. So, far my Bahai friends have not highlighted any specific words of Direct Converse of G-d with Bahaullah. Kindly focus on it, please. Right, please?

Regards
 
Top