Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

[paarsurrey]

I believe there is no direct statement in that text. He might be trying to say that his persecution was due to his being a messenger but that is not necessarily so. There were also people who had a false word who were persecuted.

Friend @adrian009, please!

People make their decision to be convinced or otherwise on their own. Our friend @Muffled , believes of Quran being Word of G-d (#134Muffled) and about Iqan that it is not a Direct Converse of G-d (#149 Muffled). It is his decision that he has reached to, I don't know when he took it.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Although Sen considers himself a Baha'i he is not recognised as a Baha'i by our governing body (Universal House of Justice), nor by many Baha'is. Part of the issue was Sen (and he will most likely disagree) producing his own unauthorised translations for the purposes of justifying his conclusions that were in contradiction with Central Teachings of the Baha'i Faith. He is of course free to translate the Baha'i writings if he wishes and make all manner of claims about what the Baha'i Faith is and isn't as you are. If he wishes to be recognised by the Baha'i administration that is another story.

It is relatively easy for someone who is bilingual and fluent in both languages to translate a writing from one language to another. However they can easily change the meaning or miss the nuances of the original work being translated. Translation of sacred writings is a highly skilled area of work and one needs to be free from personal agendas to reflect faithfully the meaning, spirit and intent of the original work being translated into another language.

The problem becomes an issue of trust. The critics of the Baha'i Faith will accuse Baha'i translators of positive bias. The Baha'is will accuse some Muslims translators of negative bias. If we can not find common ground with a translation that both parties agree on then any conversation or dialogue is unlikely to go well.

"It is relatively easy for someone who is bilingual and fluent in both languages to translate a writing from one language to another. However they can easily change the meaning or miss the nuances of the original work being translated. Translation of sacred writings is a highly skilled area of work and one needs to be free from personal agendas to reflect faithfully the meaning, spirit and intent of the original work being translated into another language."

I understand that Shoghi Effendi was not of one's opinion. He opted translation of Quran verses by a Non-Muslim quoted by Bahaullah in Iqan and then altered/disfigured them at his whims and for some verses he left that translator and translated them himself and rendered them incorrectly that suited him, as I understand.

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"So Muslims believe the Quran is the Word of God, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason"

I am already doing it in the thread <Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad>, an another Forum.

Regards

If we go by your logic, then Quran is not a direct word of God, because God said it to an angel, then angel said it to Muhammad. God did not speak to Muhammad directly then. I believe this logic is flawed, but that is how you are looking at Iqan. You are saying, just because the mode of revelation in Iqan, is not direct word of God, then it cannot be from God. But Bahaullah said, God gave Him all knowledge that exists. So, accordingly, whatever knowledge was required to write Iqan, was given to Bahaullah by God. Then Bahaullah wrote it, with the knowledge that God had given Him. Like an authentic Hadith of Muhammad. Did Muhammad make up Hadithes? Or God gave Him knowledge?
Are not Hadithes of Muhammad, inspiration from knowledge of God? How do you know that?

 

[paarsurrey]

If we go by your logic, then Quran is not a direct word of God, because God said it to an angel, then angel said it to Muhammad. God did not speak to Muhammad directly then. I believe this logic is flawed, but that is how you are looking at Iqan. You are saying, just because the mode of revelation in Iqan, is not direct word of God, then it cannot be from God. But Bahaullah said, God gave Him all knowledge that exists. So, accordingly, whatever knowledge was required to write Iqan, was given to Bahaullah by God. Then Bahaullah wrote it, with the knowledge that God had given Him. Like an authentic Hadith of Muhammad. Did Muhammad make up Hadithes? Or God gave Him knowledge?
Are not Hadithes of Muhammad, inspiration from knowledge of God? How do you know that?

"God said it to an angel, then angel said it to Muhammad."

Kindly quote from Quran the first and the foremost source of Islam/Muhammad whatever the denomination, please.

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"God said it to an angel, then angel said it to Muhammad."

Kindly quote from Quran the first and the foremost source of Islam/Muhammad whatever the denomination, please.

Regards

Did not Muhammad claim Angel Jibril is bringing Him the verses of the Quran?

Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allah , confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers."

2:97

 

[paarsurrey]

Did not Muhammad claim Angel Jibril is bringing Him the verses of the Quran?

Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allah , confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers."

2:97

[2:98]قُلۡ مَنۡ کَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّجِبۡرِیۡلَ فَاِنَّہٗ نَزَّلَہٗ عَلٰی قَلۡبِکَ بِاِذۡنِ اللّٰہِ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ وَ ہُدًی وَّ بُشۡرٰی لِلۡمُؤۡمِنِیۡنَ ﴿۹۸﴾
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah

Say: ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel — for he it is who has caused it to descend on thy heart by the command of Allah, which fulfils that which precedes it, and is a guidance and glad tidings to the believers —

Thanks for quoting the verse. This G-d told to Muhammad in a Direct Converse as is depicted with the natural words "Say" and "thy", and it is mentioned within Quran internally, not outside of Quran. Right, please?
Will one quote such a verse of Direct Converse of G-d from within Iqan on Bahaullah, please?
There is no, repeat no, repeat no such verse within Iqan, internally, I understand. Right, please?

Regards

 

[darklydreaming]

Will one quote such a verse of Direct Converse of G-d from within Iqan on Bahaullah, please?
There is no, repeat no, repeat no such verse within Iqan, internally, I understand. Right, please?

There is no such verse. He had not yet claimed to be a Manifestation of God when he wrote it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

[2:98]قُلۡ مَنۡ کَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّجِبۡرِیۡلَ فَاِنَّہٗ نَزَّلَہٗ عَلٰی قَلۡبِکَ بِاِذۡنِ اللّٰہِ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ وَ ہُدًی وَّ بُشۡرٰی لِلۡمُؤۡمِنِیۡنَ ﴿۹۸﴾
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah

Say: ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel — for he it is who has caused it to descend on thy heart by the command of Allah, which fulfils that which precedes it, and is a guidance and glad tidings to the believers —

Thanks for quoting the verse. This G-d told to Muhammad in a Direct Converse as is depicted with the natural words "Say" and "thy", and it is mentioned within Quran internally, not outside of Quran. Right, please?
Will one quote such a verse of Direct Converse of G-d from within Iqan on Bahaullah, please?
There is no, repeat no, repeat no such verse within Iqan, internally, I understand. Right, please?

Regards

Not really. God did not directly speak to Muhammad in the Quran. He spoke through the Angel, this is well known in Islam, and this is what Muslims believe. The angel brings the verses, including "Say". And not all verses of the Quran asks Muhammad to "SAY".
We explained it many times, that when Iqan was revealed, Bahaullah had not made His station known to people as the manifestation of God. We also showed you in the verses of Iqan Bahaullah alludes that the Book of Iqan is a guidance and testamony of God. Moreover, Bahaullah did not go to school to learn Religious subjects, and to me that proves His knowledge was not through learning, but as He said, His knowledge is from God. Writing a Book like Iqan, requires having great knowledge of Religions, and the fact that Bahaullah did not study Religions, proves to me, that Iqan was revealed by God. Moreover, for example, if you look at how Bahaullah interprets certain verses of the Bible, such as verses about falling stars, or cloud of heaven, you would realize, these interpretations were not even known by anyone else, so that Bahaullah could have learned it, and put it in Iqan.

 

[shunyadragon]

There is no such verse. He had not yet claimed to be a Manifestation of God when he wrote it.

These words have streamed from the pen of this Wronged One in one of His Tablets: "The purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, hath been to bring forth the Mystic Gems out of the mine of man -- they Who are the Dawning-Places of His Cause and the Repositories of the pearls of His knowledge; for, God Himself, glorified be He, is the Unseen, the One concealed and hidden from the eyes of men.

(Bahá'u'lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 13)

Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness.

(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 266)

The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves.

(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 287)

The purpose of the one true God in manifesting Himself is to summon all mankind to truthfulness and sincerity, to piety and trustworthiness, to resignation and submissiveness to the Will of God, to forbearance and kindliness, to uprightness and wisdom.

(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 299)

Thou well knowest, O my Lord, that in revealing myself I have sought only to reveal Thy Cause, and have turned to no one except for the sake of Thy Revelation and for the purpose of manifesting Thy loving-kindness.

(Bahá'u'lláh, Prayers and Meditations by Bahá'u'lláh, p. 65)

More to follow. . .

 

[shunyadragon]

There is no such verse. He had not yet claimed to be a Manifestation of God when he wrote it.

From the Katab-i-Iqan

By God! This Bird of Heaven, now dwelling upon the dust, can, besides these melodies, utter a myriad songs, and is able, apart from these utterances, to unfold innumerable mysteries. Every single note of its unpronounced utterances is immeasurably exalted above all that hath already been revealed, and immensely glorified beyond that which hath streamed from this Pen. Let the future disclose the hour when the Brides of inner meaning will, as decreed by the Will of God, hasten forth, unveiled, out of their mystic mansions, 176 and manifest themselves in the ancient realm of being. Nothing whatsoever is possible without His permission; no power can endure save through His power, and there is none other God but He. His is the world of creation, and His the Cause of God. All proclaim His Revelation, and all unfold the mysteries of His Spirit.