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Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
This process has been continuing for a long time, paarsurrey. The report would have to cover books! :)
Simply claims of Bahaism people v the disinformation, and brief argument.
One could give just one item per post. Isn't it convenient, please? RF fraternity will like it.Right, please?
It will give an added opportunity to our Bahai friends in the forum to reciprocate it, so they will also like it, ultimately. They don't miss any opportunity even it it is very small/dim.Do they, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Quote, "Every Writing by the Bab and Baha'u'llah were revealed from God, just as the Quran. The difference in this day is that the Messengers wrote a lot of it with their own hands."Unquote

Friend! I know that is one's belief, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason or, is it one acknowledgement that one's belief is in blindfaith, please?
The above sentence colored in magenta is one's conjecture in general which entails that the whole book of Iqan is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Bahaullah. So we need these claims from within the main text of Iqan (Farsi or English) in an unequivocal and straightforward manner that:
  1. the whole Iqan is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Bahaullah.
  2. Iqan is not authored by Bahaullah.
  3. and the natural words in the main text of Iqan demonstrate to that effect.
Right, please?

We now take verses 36-40 of Iqan :
36
و اطلاق شمس بر آن علماء به مناسبت علوّ و شهرت و معروفيّت است. مثل علمای مسلّم عصر که مشهور بلاد و مسلّم اند بين عباد. و اگر حاکی از شمس الهی باشند از شموس عاليه محسوبند و إلّا از شموس سجّين چنانچه می فرمايد: "الشّمسُ والقمَرُ بِحُسبَانِ
معنی شمس و قمر هم که در آيه مذکوره هست البتّه شنيده ايد، احتياج به ذکر نيست. و هر نفسی هم که از عنصر اين شمس و قمر باشد يعنی در اقبال به باطل و اعراض از حقّ، البتّه از حسبان ظاهر و به حسبان راجع خواهد شد
37
پس ای سائل، بايد به عروة الوثقی متمسّک شويم که شايد از شام ضلالت به نور هدايت راجع گرديم و از ظلّ نفی فرار نموده در ظلّ اثبات درآئيم و از نار حسبان آزاد شده به نور جمال حضرت منّان منوّر گرديم والسّلام. کَذلِکَ نُعطيکُم مِن اَثمارِ شَجَرةِ العِلمِ لِتَکُونُنَّ فی رِضوانِ حِکمةِ اللّه لَمِن المُحبرينَ
38
و در مقامی هم مقصود از اطلاقات شمس و قمر و نجوم، علوم و احکام مرتفعه در هر شريعت است مثل صلات و صوم که در شريعت فرقان بعد از اخفای جمال محمّدی از جميع احکام محکم تر و اعظم تر است. چنانچه احاديث و اخبار مشعر بر آن است و به علّت شهرت، احتياج ذکر نيست. بلکه در هر عصری حکم صلات محکم و مجری بوده.
39
چنانچه از انوار مشرقه از شمس محمّديّه مأثور است که بر جميع انبياء در هر عهدی حکم صلات نازل شده، نهايت آنکه در هر عصر به اقتضای وقت به قسمی و آدابی جديد مخصوص گشته. و چون در هر ظهور بعد، آداب و عادات و علوم مرتفعه محکمه مشرقه واضحه ثابته در ظهور قبل منسوخ
می شود لهذا تلويحاً به اسم شمس و قمر ذکر نموده‏اند. "لِيَبْلُوَکُم اَيُّکُم اَحسَنُ عَمَلاً"
40
و در حديث هم اطلاق شمس و قمر بر صوم و صلات شده چنانچه می فرمايد: "الصَّومُ ضِياءٌ وَالصَّلوةُ نُورٌ." و لکن روزی در محلّی نشسته بودم شخصی از علمای معروف وارد شد و به مناسبتی اين حديث را ذکر نمود و فرمود: چون صوم حرارت در مزاج احداث می نمايد لهذا به ضياء که شمس باشد تعبير يافته و صلات ليل چون برودت می طلبد لهذا به نور که قمر باشد معبّر گشته. ملاحظه نمودم که آن فقير به قطره ای از بحر معانی موفّق نشده و به جذوه ای ازنار سدرهحکمت ربّانی فائز نگشته. بعد از مدّتی در نهايت ادب اظهار داشتم که جناب، آنچه فرموديد در معنی حديث، در السن و افواه ناس مذکور است و ليکن گويا مقصود ديگر هم از حديث مستفاد می شود. بيان آن را طلب نمود. ذکر شد که خاتم انبياء و سيّد اصفياء دين مرتفع در فرقان را تشبيه به سماء فرموده‏اند به علّت علوّ و رفعت و عظمت و احاطه آن بر جميع اديان. و چون در سماء ظاهره دو رکن اعظم اقوم مقرّر شده است که نيّرين باشد و به شمس و قمر ناميده، همچنين در سماء دين هم دو نيّر مقدّر گشته که صوم و صلات باشد. الإسلامُ سَماءٌ
و الصَّومُ شَمسُها و الصَّلوةُ قَمَرُها.
مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ١٥-٣٠

Now its English Translation, please:
(Continued in the next post #123 )
 
Last edited:

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
(Continued from post #122)
Now its English Translation, please:

36
That the term “sun” hath been applied to the leaders of religion is due to their lofty position, their fame, and renown. Such are the universally recognized divines of every age, who speak with authority, and whose fame is securely established. If they be in the likeness of the Sun of Truth, they will surely be accounted as the most exalted of all luminaries; otherwise, they are to be recognized as the focal centers of hellish fire. Even as He saith: “Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire.”24 You are no doubt familiar with the interpretation of the term “sun” and “moon” mentioned in this verse; no need therefore to refer unto it. And whosoever is of the element of this “sun” and “moon,” that is, followeth the example of these leaders in setting his face towards falsehood and in turning away from the truth, he undoubtedly cometh out of infernal gloom and returneth thereunto.
37
And now, O seeker, it behooveth us firmly to cling unto the ‘Urvatu’l-Vuthqá, that perchance we may leave behind the darksome night of error, and embrace the dawning light of divine guidance. Shall we not flee from the face of denial, and seek the sheltering shadow of certitude? Shall we not free ourselves from the horror of satanic gloom, and hasten towards the rising light of the heavenly Beauty? In such wise, we bestow upon you the fruit of the Tree of divine knowledge, that ye may gladly and joyously abide in the Riḍván of divine wisdom.
38
In another sense, by the terms “sun,” “moon,” and “stars” are meant such laws and teachings as have been established and proclaimed in every Dispensation, such as the laws of prayer and fasting. These have, according to the law of the Qur’án, been regarded, when the beauty of the Prophet Muḥammad had passed beyond the veil, as the most fundamental and binding laws of His dispensation. To this testify the texts of the traditions and chronicles, which, on account of their being widely known, need not be referred to here. Nay rather, in every Dispensation the law concerning prayer hath been emphasized and universally enforced. To this testify the recorded traditions ascribed to the lights that have emanated from the Daystar of Truth, the essence of the Prophet Muḥammad.
39
The traditions established the fact that in all Dispensations the law of prayer hath constituted a fundamental element of the Revelation of all the Prophets of God—a law the form and the manner of which hath been adapted to the varying requirements of every age. Inasmuch as every subsequent Revelation hath abolished the manners, habits, and teachings that have been clearly, specifically, and firmly established by the former Dispensation, these have accordingly been symbolically expressed in terms of “sun” and “moon.” “That He might prove you, which of you excel in deeds.”25
40
Moreover, in the traditions the terms “sun” and “moon” have been applied to prayer and fasting, even as it is said: “Fasting is illumination, prayer is light.” One day, a well-known divine came to visit Us. While We were conversing with him, he referred to the above-quoted tradition. He said: “Inasmuch as fasting causeth the heat of the body to increase, it hath therefore been likened unto the light of the sun; and as the prayer of the night-season refresheth man, it hath been compared unto the radiance of the moon.” Thereupon We realized that that poor man had not been favored with a single drop of the ocean of true understanding, and had strayed far from the Burning Bush of divine wisdom. We then politely observed to him saying: “The interpretation your honor hath given to this tradition is the one current amongst the people. Could it not be interpreted differently?” He asked Us: “What could it be?” We made reply: “Muḥammad, the Seal of the Prophets, and the most distinguished of God’s chosen Ones, hath likened the Dispensation of the Qur’án unto heaven, by reason of its loftiness, its paramount influence, its majesty, and the fact that it comprehendeth all religions. And as the sun and moon constitute the brightest and most prominent luminaries in the heavens, similarly in the heaven of the religion of God two shining orbs have been ordained—fasting and prayer. ‘Islám is heaven; fasting is its sun, prayer, its moon.’”
Baha'i Prayers & Writings App for Android, iPhone, iPad, macOS and Windows
24. Qur’án 55:5. ↩
25. Qur’án 67:2. ↩
Baha'i Prayers & Writings App for Android, iPhone, iPad, macOS and Windows

Is there any natural word/s in the text of the above verses that indicates that these verses are a Direct Verse from/by G-d addressed to Bahaullah, please?
On the same lines that I have adopted for Quran in my posts #281,#411,in the thread "Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad " please . Right, please?
If one is not easy with Farsi Iqan to highlight one could highlight in the English translation, no harm, please.

Anybody, please.

Regards
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Again, please feel free to offer all that is not right about a Faith you have not embraced. That is most likely a better way to teach about it, more than I could ever do. Baha'u'llah has written that it is when people do this, that the Faith does spread as a result. Thus I have become very welcoming of your comments.

What another great day heading for another humid 40 Celsius today, been having 30 nights, wet season building. Birds are singing, the first rays of dawn showing on the horizon, much fruit on the trees.

Regards Tony

No Tony......... all that is needed is to correct Bahai claims! ...... as they are written.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Simply claims of Bahaism people v the disinformation, and brief argument.
One could give just one item per post. Isn't it convenient, please? RF fraternity will like it.Right, please?
It will give an added opportunity to our Bahai friends in the forum to reciprocate it, so they will also like it, ultimately. They don't miss any opportunity even it it is very small/dim.Do they, please?

Regards

Ah, well, paarsurrey..... the only way that I manage is by copy-posting Bahai claims and then replying to them, as I have for years now.

Or, alternatively, to ask a question of them, as I have on this thread without any answers given, such as:-
How many actions would attract a death sentence (if convicted) in a Bahai World?

:p
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Ah, well, paarsurrey..... the only way that I manage is by copy-posting Bahai claims and then replying to them, as I have for years now.

Or, alternatively, to ask a question of them, as I have on this thread without any answers given, such as:-
How many actions would attract a death sentence (if convicted) in a Bahai World?

:p
Is there a Bahai World really, please? I don't believe one.
Please quote from the source, please.

What about the death sentence?

Regards
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
No Tony......... all that is needed is to correct Bahai claims! ...... as they are written.

First one would have to know what they are saying.

If not, one would have to correct the needed corrections, before they even started.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
No Tony.
I don't start threads against Bahai often, if ever.
I only respond to what Bahais write.

I am happy for you to respond in any way you choose.

I will point out from time to time that what you offer is not how a Baha'i sees it and is also not what Baha'u'llah offered. As such, you corrections of what has been said, is suited to your understanding, to which you are more then free to have and will always be free to have.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Is there a Bahai World really, please? I don't believe one.
Please quote from the source, please.

What about the death sentence?

Regards

"Bahai claims! ...... as they are written"

Please mention them and their correction with reasonable arguments, please.

Regards

Parrsurrey, it looks like you keep appearing with short sharp comments, to flog that dead horse :D

Regards Tony
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Parrsurrey, it looks like you keep appearing with short sharp comments, to flog that dead horse :D

Regards Tony
My suggestion? Take a deep breath, brew yourself a hot cup of tea, grab a prune danish and relax.

If you haven't noticed already, the gentleman is slowly working his way through the religions of the world. He would represent that he is simply posing respectful questions so as to educate himself, to learn more about other faith traditions. I do not believe that the Jews, Christians and others on this forum who have attempted to answer his questions would agree with that innocuous self assessment.

The good news is that eventually he will move on, he will find another group that he wishes to tear apar.... I mean ask questions of... and he will leave Baha'i alone.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
My suggestion? Take a deep breath, brew yourself a hot cup of tea, grab a prune danish and relax.

If you haven't noticed already, the gentleman is slowly working his way through the religions of the world. He would represent that he is simply posing respectful questions so as to educate himself, to learn more about other faith traditions. I do not believe that the Jews, Christians and others on this forum who have attempted to answer his questions would agree with that innocuous self assessment.

The good news is that eventually he will move on, he will find another group that he wishes to tear apar.... I mean ask questions of... and he will leave Baha'i alone.

I see you have a very valid point. Thank you for my stress concerns. I will take your advice in fact hebal tea. :)

Most importantly, I see paarsurry has a heart that wants to offer all that is good to all people, and it is that goal of heart I thank G_d for.

The trick for us is not confusing what G_d wants, with what we see G_d wants. An age old quandary. ;)

Regards Tony
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
My suggestion? Take a deep breath, brew yourself a hot cup of tea, grab a prune danish and relax.

If you haven't noticed already, the gentleman is slowly working his way through the religions of the world. He would represent that he is simply posing respectful questions so as to educate himself, to learn more about other faith traditions. I do not believe that the Jews, Christians and others on this forum who have attempted to answer his questions would agree with that innocuous self assessment.

The good news is that eventually he will move on, he will find another group that he wishes to tear apar.... I mean ask questions of... and he will leave Baha'i alone.
Intelligent comments from our friend @RabbiO , isn't it,please?
I like it.
Welcome

Regards
 

darklydreaming

New Member
Most likely another cut and paste from Islamic anti-Baha’i websites using unauthorised translations without any context provided or writings that were never written by the Bab in the first place.
That is why you will find unauthorized translations, hell bent offering a different intent, that the Bayan was not in any way conveying.
When Baha'is claim this, it's always funny. I studied Arabic and Persian in college when I was investigating Islam and related religions. There are in fact unsavoury things in the Baha'i writings which are concealed through selective translation practices, and scholars and private individuals are free to translate those things as they wish. Baha'is cannot simply wave those translations away, deride them as "provisional" or "unauthorised," and pretend as if they don't exist; it's intellectually dishonest. Christians don't have a central body ruling over us which determines what can and cannot be translated or which translations are valid. Muslims don't either, neither do Jews, or those of any other religion; this is a peculiarity of the Baha'i Faith. Also, I never see Arab or Persian Baha'is who make this argument; at least, they do it very rarely. It's always English-speaking Baha'is who are skilled in no other language who make these kind of claims, and they make them from a convenient position of ignorance.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
When Baha'is claim this, it's always funny. I studied Arabic and Persian in college when I was investigating Islam and related religions. There are in fact unsavoury things in the Baha'i writings which are concealed through selective translation practices, and scholars and private individuals are free to translate those things as they wish. Baha'is cannot simply wave those translations away, deride them as "provisional" or "unauthorised," and pretend as if they don't exist; it's intellectually dishonest. Christians don't have a central body ruling over us which determines what can and cannot be translated or which translations are valid. Muslims don't either, neither do Jews, or those of any other religion; this is a peculiarity of the Baha'i Faith. Also, I never see Arab or Persian Baha'is who make this argument; at least, they do it very rarely. It's always English-speaking Baha'is who are skilled in no other language who make these kind of claims, and they make them from a convenient position of ignorance.

Thanks and welcome to the forum and one's input in this thread. Since, one knows Persian and Arabic, so one will be an asset in this thread. Most welcome.

Regards
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
When Baha'is claim this, it's always funny. I studied Arabic and Persian in college when I was investigating Islam and related religions. There are in fact unsavoury things in the Baha'i writings which are concealed through selective translation practices, and scholars and private individuals are free to translate those things as they wish. Baha'is cannot simply wave those translations away, deride them as "provisional" or "unauthorised," and pretend as if they don't exist; it's intellectually dishonest. Christians don't have a central body ruling over us which determines what can and cannot be translated or which translations are valid. Muslims don't either, neither do Jews, or those of any other religion; this is a peculiarity of the Baha'i Faith. Also, I never see Arab or Persian Baha'is who make this argument; at least, they do it very rarely. It's always English-speaking Baha'is who are skilled in no other language who make these kind of claims, and they make them from a convenient position of ignorance.

Welcome to RF.

As one who is fluent in English and doesn’t speak Persian and Arabic I can only work with what I know, not what I don’t.

The Baha’i Faith is a relatively small faith community unlike Christianity and Islam, and relatively young having emerged from Persia in 1844. Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings span a period of 40 years and the volume of writings is estimated to be 15 times the size of the Christian Bible. His works have been translated into hundreds of languages. The translation work into English is particularly important as it becomes a source for translation into other languages.

The most important of Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings, the Kitab-i-Aqdas was finally translated into English in 1992 and Summons to the Lord of Hosts, another key work was released 2002.

Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Wikipedia

Summons of the Lord of Hosts - Wikipedia

Both Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice have said a great deal about the translation work.

Translation and provisional translations

All the best with your Islamic studies.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Welcome to RF.

As one who is fluent in English and doesn’t speak Persian and Arabic I can only work with what I know, not what I don’t.

The Baha’i Faith is a relatively small faith community unlike Christianity and Islam, and relatively young having emerged from Persia in 1844. Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings span a period of 40 years and the volume of writings is estimated to be 15 times the size of the Christian Bible. His works have been translated into hundreds of languages. The translation work into English is particularly important as it becomes a source for translation into other languages.

The most important of Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings, the Kitab-i-Aqdas was finally translated into English in 1992 and Summons to the Lord of Hosts, another key work was released 2002.

Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Wikipedia

Summons of the Lord of Hosts - Wikipedia

Both Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice have said a great deal about the translation work.

Translation and provisional translations

All the best with your Islamic studies.

Adrian. You have completely ignored the whole context of what was said in the comment you replied to. Completely.
 
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