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Knowledge and Belief

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
This is exactly why we ought never use the wrong word. A person ought never say, "there is no God." Because that is the same as saying "I know there is no God." It is impossible to know that there is no God, and so it ought never be said by anyone, ever. If they were honest, no person should ever go beyond saying "I believe there is no God."
No, we really ought to say "there is no God." This is the proper way of expressing belief, with all the weight of your opinion that you have perceived a real truth backing it up. Else, all our beliefs would have to be expressed wishy-washy, and who'd believe that?

The difference between the way we express a belief and knowledge is, ideally, none--no difference. Every bit of "knowledge" you hear expressed should first and foremost be taken by you as belief. Belief is the core, knowledge is a convenience (and almost incidental).
 

idea

Question Everything
If there are no facts, then it follows that there is at least one fact. Not a good result.

What is the temperature of the room you are in? Can you give an exact value? The temperature varies with position, with time - there is no exact temperature... perhaps for one moment you could know the velocity of one atom in the room? but then the moment would be gone, and the velocity changed.... such is knowledge.

And if this Perry schema is accurate, then we essentially get dumber as we get older and more educated- that is, our view of truth drifts farther and farther from what is the case, and becomes more untenable. We should certainly hope that it is not accurate.

The more you know, the more you know you don't know...

The only thing we can really control, is our self - that is the only thing we can come to know and define, is our self, this is the highest Perry level, knowing yourself, and acting in accordance with your own conscience.

Perry levels are real, many universities use them to design "open ended" courses, students and professionals are tested on their levels, it's a natural progression for most people.
 

idea

Question Everything
I think that is why you don't get many arguments. 2+2 equals 4 because we agree on the symbols and take as a given one assumption. The symbol 2 equals 1+1. The symbol 4 equals 1+1+1+1

Symbols seldom mean same thing on mist threads

2 + 2, 2 of what? 2 scoops of ice cream? how much ice cream to make one official scoop? what if it melts? 2+2=3 + a puddle? Reality is always more complex than the symbols we use to describe it.
 

adi2d

Active Member
2 + 2, 2 of what? 2 scoops of ice cream? how much ice cream to make one official scoop? what if it melts? 2+2=3 + a puddle? Reality is always more complex than the symbols we use to describe it.

You added symbols to the equation that we don't all agree on

A puddle? Are you stating ice cream isn't ice cream when it melts?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
What is the temperature of the room you are in? Can you give an exact value? The temperature varies with position, with time - there is no exact temperature... perhaps for one moment you could know the velocity of one atom in the room? but then the moment would be gone, and the velocity changed.... such is knowledge.
The nature of measurement is only degrees of precision. Yet behind each measurement there is the idea that regardless of what we measure there is some exact size, else we could not say that each measure falls short. Right?

Fact is not absent from our claims of estimate, approximation or guess work. They need some measure, themselves, in order to be less than exact.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
What is the temperature of the room you are in? Can you give an exact value? The temperature varies with position, with time - there is no exact temperature... perhaps for one moment you could know the velocity of one atom in the room? but then the moment would be gone, and the velocity changed.... such is knowledge.
Inexact, fallible... But still knowledge. And despite such fuzzy cases, there are plenty of cases that we can be as precise as we wish- if I ask whether you know whats on TV at 7 pm I don't care whether it is in fact starting at 7:01.013 or 6:59.997, I want to know whether the game is on or not. If you know, I'm happy. Different types of knowledge admits of varying degrees of precision- this doesn't mean that knowledge doesn't exist, or that it isn't different from mere belief.

The more you know, the more you know you don't know...
Sure. Which itself sort of presupposes a realist conception of knowledge, else this saying doesn't make much sense.

The only thing we can really control, is our self - that is the only thing we can come to know and define, is our self, this is the highest Perry level, knowing yourself, and acting in accordance with your own conscience.

Perry levels are real, many universities use them to design "open ended" courses, students and professionals are tested on their levels, it's a natural progression for most people.
That may be- but as I pointed out to you, it's irrelevant. Just because people are more likely to hold a certain position as they get older or go to school doesn't mean that this position is accurate; I would imagine that there's a positive correlation between age and belief in the afterlife, or college education and disbelief in God, but in neither of these cases does this constitute an argument for or evidence of the truth of the belief in question.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I am perpetually studying language formally.

So you are in an academic linguistics program?

And you wonder why people use language in 'peculiar ways'?

I'm not at all sure what that means. Are you making some kind of distinction between 'poetic' language vs. 'literal' language perhaps?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
So you are in an academic linguistics program?

And you wonder why people use language in 'peculiar ways'?

I'm not at all sure what that means. Are you making some kind of distinction between 'poetic' language vs. 'literal' language perhaps?

Of course I am. I wouldn't have said so if I wasn't.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
So you are in an academic linguistics program?

And you wonder why people use language in 'peculiar ways'?

I'm not at all sure what that means. Are you making some kind of distinction between 'poetic' language vs. 'literal' language perhaps?

People constantly use words incorrectly. Sometimes it is unintentional. Other times it is quite intentional.

People often devise alternate definitions for words in order to undermine the true meaning.

Thus, there are two sorts of people who use words incorrectly; the ignorant, and the deceitful.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
People constantly use words incorrectly. Sometimes it is unintentional. Other times it is quite intentional.

People often devise alternate definitions for words in order to undermine the true meaning.

Thus, there are two sorts of people who use words incorrectly; the ignorant, and the deceitful.

Amazing. Really and truly amazing.

So anyway, which one are you... ignorant or deceitful?

I see you using words incorrectly all the time, but in my opinion that's just a necessary part of linguistic behavior. If you see it as either ignorance or deceit, which one do you feel motivates you?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Amazing. Really and truly amazing.

So anyway, which one are you... ignorant or deceitful?

I see you using words incorrectly all the time, but in my opinion that's just a necessary part of linguistic behavior. If you see it as either ignorance or deceit, which one do you feel motivates you?

I'm sorry to inform you, I never use words incorrectly.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
So let's cut to the chase.

Do you believe that God exists?
Or do you believe that no God exists?
Please explain why.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
So let's cut to the chase.

Do you believe that God exists?
Or do you believe that no God exists?
Please explain why.

What? How is that "cutting to the chase" on a thread regarding the existence of knowledge, and its non-identity with mere belief? :confused:

If you want to discuss the existence of God, there is no lack of threads devoted to that topic. Please find one.
 
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