Knowledge and Belief

[AmbiguousGuy]

While a believer can be unfaithful to his/her spouse, they can never claim that unfaithfulness is God's will. It's not.

Lots of God's prophets pass through this place. Some of them are Christians; some Jews or Muslims or Baha's; some atheists. They all know God's absolute truth.

Me, I pray every night: God, please protect me from any final knowledge of Your Will. Keep me humble and ready to grow in wisdom, oh Lord.

 

[Sonofason]

I have a pet rock too, and it can do anything.

I don't believe you do. Honesty is a virtue, not a toy for children.

 

[Sonofason]

Lots of God's prophets pass through this place. Some of them are Christians; some Jews or Muslims or Baha's; some atheists. They all know God's absolute truth.

Me, I pray every night: God, please protect me from any final knowledge of Your Will. Keep me humble and ready to grow in wisdom, oh Lord.

See that? God answers some prayers.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

See that? God answers some prayers.

God and I are tight. If you have any questions about godly stuff, I'm the guy to ask.

 

[Ouroboros]

I don't believe you do. Honesty is a virtue, not a toy for children.

So you can have a rock, but I can't? How unfair. You believe in your rock, and I believe in mine.

 

[Sonofason]

So you can have a rock, but I can't? How unfair. You believe in your rock, and I believe in mine.

I am free to believe what ever I believe. If I believe you are not telling the truth about the rock you claim to have, the I will believe you have not the rock you claim to have. It's not unfair at all.

You still have your little rock, and I have my Rock.

 

[Willamena]

Just wanted to point out that even if we accept that knowledge is defined by belief of truth, that does not preclude the possibility that it is actually true, as your syllogisms above indicate.

To add "belief of" to "truth" does affect things. It's the third example, indicating the case where truth is undetermined (in this case, the truth of truth).

But truth isn't undetermined.

I could say "Unicorns do not exist". This statement of knowledge is based upon my belief in the (certain) truth that unicorns don't exist.

It may or may not be actually true that unicorns don't exist.

The point is: My decision to consider this statement "knowledge" was based off of my certainty of belief, and not the actual truth.

But "Unicorns do not exist" is only a statement of knowledge if it's actually true that unicorns do not exist. Your decision to consider it knowledge or declare it knowledge isn't what makes it knowledge, and your certainty of belief isn't what makes it knowledge.

I'm just re-iterating a position, unwilling to make my arguments again from the start.

 

[Ouroboros]

I am free to believe what ever I believe. If I believe you are not telling the truth about the rock you claim to have, the I will believe you have not the rock you claim to have. It's not unfair at all.

You still have your little rock, and I have my Rock.

Oh, and talking about honesty:

2 Tess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isn't it cool? God is tricking us unbelievers and send a delusion to make us believe in what is false. He's such a swell guy... and honest.

And besides that, I don't believe you believe Jesus is an actual physical rock. That would be just silly. Wouldn't it?

 

[Sonofason]

Oh, and talking about honesty:

2 Tess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isn't it cool? God is tricking us unbelievers and send a delusion to make us believe in what is false. He's such a swell guy... and honest.

And besides that, I don't believe you believe Jesus is an actual physical rock. That would be just silly. Wouldn't it?

You are probably correct on this point:
Jesus is probably not literally a rock. Do you know what a metaphor is? If you don't, I'd be happy to supply a reasonable definition for you.

 

[Ouroboros]

You are probably correct on this point:
Jesus is probably not literally a rock. Do you know what a metaphor is? If you don't, I'd be happy to supply a reasonable definition for you.

I have a metaphorical pet rock. I'd be happy to explain to you that in a equal world, other people can have metaphors too. But you can take me literal if you want, but that's your problem.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

But "Unicorns do not exist" is only a statement of knowledge if it's actually true that unicorns do not exist.

So since we humans can never know whether it's true or false that unicorns exist in the physical world, then all claims of knowledge about them are just guesses? It might be knowledge (true) or it might not be knowledge (false)?

Then why even claim knowledge of anything at all?

Your decision to consider it knowledge or declare it knowledge isn't what makes it knowledge, and your certainty of belief isn't what makes it knowledge.

Right. It's only knowledge if the thing is actually true.

But we can't ever know if the thing is actually true.

So all claims of knowledge are simply guesses.

Yes?

 

[Sonofason]

I have a metaphorical pet rock. I'd be happy to explain to you that in a equal world, other people can have metaphors too. But you can take me literal if you want, but that's your problem.

I'm a little confused.

If your "pet rock" is just a metaphor, what is your little pet rock a metaphor for?

And if this rock of yours is a metaphor, why do you refer to it as your pet?

Please explain, because all I see is dishonesty. Your comment seems most disingenuous to me. Please enlighten me.

 

[Sonofason]

So since we humans can never know whether it's true or false that unicorns exist in the physical world, then all claims of knowledge about them are just guesses? It might be knowledge (true) or it might not be knowledge (false)?

Then why even claim knowledge of anything at all?



Right. It's only knowledge if the thing is actually true.

But we can't ever know if the thing is actually true.

So all claims of knowledge are simply guesses.

Yes?

If you ever see one, you will have certain knowledge that unicorns exist.

 

[Willamena]

So since we humans can never know whether it's true or false that unicorns exist in the physical world, then all claims of knowledge about them are just guesses? It might be knowledge (true) or it might not be knowledge (false)?

Then why even claim knowledge of anything at all?

Is it true that we humans can never know whether it's true of false that unicorns exist in the physical world?

I spy with my little eye, I see something asserted as true...

Right. It's only knowledge if the thing is actually true.

But we can't ever know if the thing is actually true.

So all claims of knowledge are simply guesses.

Yes?

But we can and do know if some things are actually true.

 

[Ouroboros]

Please explain, because all I see is dishonesty. Your comment seems most disingenuous to me. Please enlighten me.

With that kind of attitude you won't get anything from me.

Your skill in evangelizing your gospel is amazing. You win the arrogance test.

 

[Sonofason]

With that kind of attitude you won't get anything from me.

Your skill in evangelizing your gospel is amazing. You win the arrogance test.

What you are calling arrogance I see as measured confidence.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

If you ever see one, you will have certain knowledge that unicorns exist.

So we can only have knowledge of things we see?

What if we see a pink dragon which no one else can see? Can we have certain knowledge that a pink dragon is there?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Is it true that we humans can never know whether it's true of false that unicorns exist in the physical world?

I spy with my little eye, I see something asserted as true...

Huh? Really, I often just can't understand what you are trying to say to me.

It is my opinion that we cannot know, as God knows, whether there are unicorns in the world. How about you? Is it your opinion that we can know whether unicorns do or don't exist in the world?

But we can and do know if some things are actually true.

Oh, sure. We can also fly by flapping our arms. We can do anything.

 

[Willamena]

Huh? Really, I often just can't understand what you are trying to say to me.

It is my opinion that we cannot know, as God knows, whether there are unicorns in the world. How about you? Is it your opinion that we can know whether unicorns do or don't exist in the world?

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on things about which I'm not informed.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on things about which I'm not informed.

So you have no opinion as to whether there are or aren't unicorns.

But you claim we can know whether or not there are unicorns?

Sorry. Sometimes I get completely lost.