Knowledge, evidence, truth, proof, assumption, axiom, belief, faith and so on

[AppieB]

I don't know that there is only one next step. You tell me what you do, as I can't tell you what the next step is for you.

E.g. how come you answer me as if I exist as me independent of you? But you seem to use an assumption that there is a common world and we as we are a part of it. Is that correct? If yes, then what is that world as such if not just your experience?

Yes, I presuppose that the reality I experience is real. That's it! Do I have proof for this? No! Is it possible that I'm a brain in a vat? Yes!
So why do I have this presupposition? It is born out of necessity and reason. Even though I'm not 100% sure that the reality I experience is real, I experience reality as if it were real. My actions have consequenses for myself. Putting my hands on a hot stove might not be reality, but it certainly feels real. So it is in my interest to treat my experience of reality as if it were real without being absolutely sure it is true.
I don't see a reasonable alternative.

 

[an anarchist]

What does that have to do with real for the universe?

You asked me how I know the universe is real. Well, I gave you an answer.

 

[Estro Felino]

Please explain how you know that?

There have been murderers who were caught red-handed by a surveillance camera.
While they were killing.
And they said: it wasn't me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Idk I'm not an epistemologicalist and I am sure the "correct" answer is woven with nuance.

That real is real is in effect that A is A. That is true, but says nothing about the rest of the world. It is true because of its internal form. It is not true because of what the rest of the world is as such.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You asked me how I know the universe is real. Well, I gave you an answer.

The universe is real is not the same as real is real.
Just as A is B is not the same as B is B.

 

[an anarchist]

That real is real is in effect that A is A. That is true, but says nothing about the rest of the world. It is true because of its internal form. It is not true because of what the rest of the world is as such.

Unless it's a synthetic a priori knowledge claim

 

[an anarchist]

The universe is real is not the same as real is real.
Just as A is B is not the same as B is B.

I am part of the universe. I can confirm I am real. Therefore, the universe to some extent is real. So I say with confidence the universe is real.

Tangent - where does all of your philosophical doubt get you? It's all I ever see you talk about in most threads, regardless of topic. Not hating, just wondering

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, I presuppose that the reality I experience is real. That's it! Do I have proof for this? No! Is it possible that I'm a brain in a vat? Yes!
So why do I have this presupposition? It is born out of necessity and reason. Even though I'm not 100% sure that the reality I experience is real, I experience reality as if it were real. My actions have consequenses for myself. Putting my hands on a hot stove might not be reality, but it certainly feels real. So it is in my interest to treat my experience of reality as if it were real without being absolutely sure it is true.
I don't see a reasonable alternative.

Well, I agree. I also believe so. But I know that some people believe different for religion and since I have no evidence for my beliefs, I don't ask them for evidence for their personal ones.
But the moment someone start claim good/bad for humans as such, I ask how they know that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I am part of the universe. I can confirm I am real. Therefore, the universe to some extent is real. So I say with confidence the universe is real.

Tangent - where does all of your philosophical doubt get you? It's all I ever see you talk about in most threads, regardless of topic. Not hating, just wondering

Doesn't follow.
A part of the universe is real. Therefore the universe in toto is real. That is invalid.

It is because I had to learn all the way down what it means to be different, since I am mentally ill. So in that process it led me to knowledge in general.

 

[an anarchist]

A part of the universe is real.

Do you agree?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There have been murderers who were caught red-handed by a surveillance camera.
While they were killing.
And they said: it wasn't me.

Yeah, we believe differently about objective reality in effect.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Do you agree?

No, not really, since I can't observe real. I believe the universe as such is real, but I don't know that. For "I think, therefore I am" that is very limited, because it doesn't tell me, that you are real or that all my experiences correspond to something real.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Unless it's a synthetic a priori knowledge claim

Then how do you know that?

 

[an anarchist]

For "I think, therefore I am" that is very limited, because it doesn't tell me, that you are real or that all my experiences correspond to something real.

Well, if you think as well as me, then that means we are both real. And if I think as well as you, that tells you that I am real.

 

[AppieB]

Well, I agree. I also believe so. But I know that some people believe different for religion and since I have no evidence for my beliefs, I don't ask them for evidence for their personal ones.
But the moment someone start claim good/bad for humans as such, I ask how they know that.

I've never met a person like that. Who are those people that don't believe that what they are experiencing is reality? It's not the Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindu's, Buddhist or any other religion I know of. Sure, there might be some people who think we are in the Matrix or something like that, but not mentionable.

And I haven't even started about good or bad. Again you're all over the place. Take it easy!

Anyway, if we both agree that we experience an external world then we don't have to question it again unnecessary.

 

[an anarchist]

Then how do you know that?

I don't understand what you mean.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well, if you think as well as me, then that means we are both real. And if I think as well as you, that tell you that I am real.

Well, that we think it, is not the same as we know it.

 

[an anarchist]

Well, that we think it, is not the same as we know it.

The fact that we can think at all means there is something to do the thinking with and something to think about.

As I said in the beginning, real is real.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I've never met a person like that. Who are those people that don't believe that what they are experiencing is reality? It's not the Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindu's, Buddhist or any other religion I know of. Sure, there might be some people who think we are in the Matrix or something like that, but not mentionable.

And I haven't even started about good or bad. Again you're all over the place. Take it easy!

Anyway, if we both agree that we experience an external world then we don't have to question it again unnecessary.

Well, they believe in the supernatural in some sense.That was my point.

So now you just have to show what the external world is as not you and how you know that or whatever you believe in for what the external world is other than not you.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The fact that we can think at all means there is something to do the thinking with and something to think about.

As I said in the beginning, real is real.

Well, you use Descartes but you haven't solved if your experiences are real or not as more than just your your experiences.