Krishna - Historical or mythological?

[chinu]

Meditation and chanting is part of my daily spiritual practice. Bhakti yoga with devotion to the exalted Personage of Krishna and Karma Yoga with emphasis on service to humanity have similarities to my beliefs and practice. Although Chakras are important to both Bhakti and Karma Yoga I’m somewhat of a chakra agnostic and rarely think in such terms. However if it genuinely works for others I’m all for it.

First of all I want to say here.. Working-genuinely doesn't mean that it is the BEST that leads to supreme God.

Although "Bhakti-yoga" and "Chakra-yoga" are two different paths with same goals, but, "Bhakti-yoga" was recommended by most of the great people in the history due to certain reasons. I myself prefer, and recommend it others as compare to "Chakra-yoga", but this definitely does-NOT mean that "Chakra-yoga" does-NOT-work.

"Chakra-yoga" works like climbing to the top of the building (Human-body) using staircases, from one chakra to another, and then further taking an aircraft from the top of the building (Human-body) to reach the final destination (Supreme-God).

Whereas, "Bhakti-yoga" works like reaching the top of same building (Human-body) using an elevator, and then further taking an aircraft from the top of the building (Human-body) to reach the final destination (Supreme-God).

"Chakra-yoga" takes too long time climbing the staircases one by one up to the top of the building, including the very high possibility of falling-down on the base from any step to start again. Whereas, in "Bhakti-yoga" one is directly taken to the top of the building in an elevator with NO risks involved to fall down.

In "Chakra-yoga" development is visible when passing through different levels. Whereas, this is NOT the case in "Bhakti-yoga" because the view is closed from all sides.

NOW, I would like to come on the ORIGINAL QUESTION:- Krishna/Vishnu is Supreme God, or NOT ?

"Anahata-chakra" / "Heart-chakra" is the place of Vishnu. Why NOT practice "Chakra-yoga", reach the level, and know the truth by own-self ?

And, when passing through "Heart-chakra-level" one will automatically come to know about the truth. Or perhaps, just reaching the first-chakra (1st level) will further give the courage, and possibility of the existence of next levels.

I very well understand that practicing "Charka-yoga" will take a lot of time, its not that easy, In fact, success sounds almost impossible to achieve in this 21st century. But, sadly there's NO other nearest possible solution to know the "Truth" on the basis of some solid evidence.

Rest everything is just books and talks, thank you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, a bit of correction. Brahma is a deprecated God in the trinity for theists Hindus. What I accept is Brahman, the sole stuff of the universe, 'physical energy', with which we started at the time of Big Bang, and which constitutes all things in the universe without any exception, humans, animals, vegetation, non-living substances. Brahman, for me is not a God, it does not want to be worshiped, it is not a judge of peoples' deeds, and is completely neutral to what is happening in the world. No mysticism, no esoteric language there.

For some reason I have totally agreed with you with this. Never did apply it to a religion or anything. Wasn't raised in any religion. I do have interest in learning about the mysticism but understanding it apart from abrahamic means would be kind of difficult.

 

[ameyAtmA]

In the Bhagvat Geetha Krisha is called Vasudeva. Yet Vasudeva is the father of Krishna so most believe the meaning of Vasudeva was attributed to Krishna, not as a name. Vasu meaning living or good, deva meaning God.

Krishna's father was Vasudev with a short 'a' , pronounced like wusoodev

whereas Shri Krishna is VAAsudev with a long A like in glass class grass etc.

for 2 reasons
1. Sanskrit grammer. Son of Vasudev = VAAAsudev (short a becomes long)
Son of Vivasvat = Vaivaswat
Son of Vineeta (female, mother) = Vainiteya
Son of Kunti (mother) = Kaunteya (Arjun is Kaunteya)


2. The real reason He is VAsudev is because of His omnipresence. Vaas = residence. One Who resides everywhere an in the heart of every being - VishNu complete - VAsudev
OR
:Like you said - Living God.

VAsudev sarvam iti -- this entire existence is VAsudev.


------
As for the threads discussing KrishNa's historicity -- Yes, KrishNa was in human form on earth around 5300 years ago. His LeelA on earth was for 128 years,
He continues to be here for His devotees and keeps His many promises. He has kept His word..

 

[ameyAtmA]

You are welcome to all practices, but 'Chakra', 'Kundalini' is farce.

How do you explain pressure in the AdnyA and sahasra? What causes it?

 

[firedragon]

Krishna's father was Vasudev with a short 'a' , pronounced like wusoodev

whereas Shri Krishna is VAAsudev with a long A like in glass class grass etc.

for 2 reasons
1. Sanskrit grammer. Son of Vasudev = VAAAsudev (short a becomes long)
Son of Vivasvat = Vaivaswat
Son of Vineeta (female, mother) = Vainiteya
Son of Kunti (mother) = Kaunteya (Arjun is Kaunteya)


2. The real reason He is VAsudev is because of His omnipresence. Vaas = residence. One Who resides everywhere an in the heart of every being - VishNu complete - VAsudev

VAsudev sarvam iti -- this entire existence is VAsudev.


------
As for the threads discussing KrishNa's historicity -- Yes, KrishNa was in human form on earth around 5300 years ago. His LeelA on earth was for 128 years,
He continues to be here for His devotees and keeps His many promises. He has kept His word..

Can you give me the verse where Vasudeva is with the short swara.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Can you give me the verse where Vasudeva is with the short swara.

Do you read DevnAgri script? Like Sanskrit? वसुदेव versus वासुदेव (Krishna)
|| ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय ||
Unless the roman script has the accentuation for Sanskrit pronunciation, you cannot tell.
All verses in the BhAgvat purAN and MahAbhArat that refer to the Vrishni prince Vasudev (Krishna's father, Devaki's husband) are with a short 'a' - sound: wu like mud, bud

Śhrimad BhAgvat 10.5.20
वसुदेव उपश्रुत्य भ्रातरं नन्दमागतम् ।
ज्ञात्वा दत्तकरं राज्ञे ययौ तदवमोचनम् ॥ २० ॥
vasudeva upaśrutya
bhrātaraṁ nandam āgatam
jñātvā datta-karaṁ rājñe
yayau tad-avamocanam

Translation
When Vasudeva heard that Nanda Mahārāja, his very dear friend and brother, had come to Mathurā and already paid the taxes to Kaṁsa, he went to Nanda Mahārāja’s residence.

--
Vasudeva Sutam Devam
Kamsa Chanoora Mardanam
Devaki Paramaanandam
Krishnam Vande Jagat Gurum
वसुदेवसुतं देवं कंस चाणूर मर्दनम्‌ ।
देवकी परमानन्दं कृष्णं वन्दे जगात्गुरुम्‌ ॥

Word to word meaning: Vasudeva = Vasudeva, Sri Krishna's father; Sutam = to the son (Sutaha = son); Devam = to the Lord/God; Kamsa = Kamsa, Krishna's maternal uncle or mama; Chanoora = Chanoora, a wrestler in Kamsa's court; Mardanam = to the one who killed; Devaki = Devaki, Krishna's mother; Parama = immense; Anandam = to the one who caused joy; Krishnam = to Lord Krishna; Vande = I bow upon/I salute or namaskar; Jagat = world; Gurum = to the teacher.

Meaning: I bow to Lord Krishna, the son of Vasudeva, who was the cause of mother Devaki's immense happiness, and the one who killed the wicked Kamsa and Chanoora, and who is the supreme teacher of the universe.

---------
Whereas, in the Bhagavad Geeta , Arjun calls Krishna VAsudev , and KrishNa says in
BG 10.37 "Among VrishNis I am VAsudev" that means "I am the son of Vasudev => I am VAAsudev

Bhagvad GeetA 10.37
वृष्णीनां वासुदेवोऽस्मि पाण्डवानां धनञ्जय: |
मुनीनामप्यहं व्यास: कवीनामुशना कवि: || 37||

vṛiṣhṇīnāṁ vāsudevo ’smi pāṇḍavānāṁ dhanañjayaḥ <-- Note the bar on the a => long sound
munīnām apyahaṁ vyāsaḥ kavīnām uśhanā kaviḥ

Translation
BG 10.37: Amongst the descendants of Vrishni, I am Krishna, and amongst the Pandavas I am Arjun. Know me to be Ved Vyas amongst the sages, and Shukracharya amongst the great thinkers.

3. See my signature

 

[atanu]

Krishna is regarded by many Hindus as one of the most important deities in Hinduism. He is worshiped as the eighth avatar of the God Vishnu and also as the supreme God in his own right. He is the God of compassion, tenderness, love and is one of the most popular and widely revered among Indian divinities.

Was He a real historic character or are the accounts of His life in Hindu sacred scriptures wholly mythical?

According to Wikipedia:

According to Guy Beck, "most scholars of Hinduism and Indian history accept the historicity of Krishna—that he was a real male person, whether human or divine, who lived on Indian soil by at least 1000 BCE and interacted with many other historical persons within the cycles of the epic and puranic histories." Yet, Beck also notes that there is an "enormous number of contradictions and discrepancies surrounding the chronology of Krishna's life as depicted in the Sanskrit canon."[140]

Lanvanya Vemsani states that Krishna can be inferred to have lived between 3227 BCE – 3102 BCE from the Puranas.[141] A number of scholars, such as A. K. Bansal, B. V. Raman places Krishna's birth year as 3228 BCE.[142][143] A paper[which?] presented in a conference in 2004 by a group of archaeologists, religious scholars and astronomers from Somnath Trust of Gujarat, which was organised at Prabhas Patan, the supposed location of the where Krishna spent his last moments, fixes the death of Sri Krishna on 18 February 3102 BC at the age of 125 years and 7 months.

Krishna - Wikipedia

Is there reasonable evidence to conclude Krishna was a real person or merely wishful thinking on the part of some Hindu scholars?

I am sure that no one has seen Krishna or Shiva in normal waking time. And I do not think there is any historical evidence of their existence too. I know the right Hindutva brigade in India will troll me or even threaten me for saying this.

But I think these questions are inappropriate from a spiritual point of view. Hinduism teaches of cyclic time of Yuga-s (Yuga - Wikipedia) and eternality and reality of Consciousness and its 'vivarta' (like gold exists as a bangle without changing itself) versus the temporality of forms. Krishna says "kalosmi", "I am Time". So, at what time period is time expected to exist?

Therefore, I do not understand whether the question is meaningful or not. However, to some religious persons who believe that Krishna was a temporal material being this question may be relevant. For such people Krishna's departure marks the end of Dvapara Yuga and the start of Kali Yuga, which is dated to 17/18 February 3102 BCE. But again how do you prove it.

I think that it is better to be in the present and examine the reality of oneself.
...

 

[ameyAtmA]

I am sure that no one has seen Krishna or Shiva in normal waking time..

Are you?

 

[atanu]

Are you?

Normal waking time.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Normal waking time.

Yes. Waking. Jagrut.

 

[atanu]

Yes. Waking. Jagrut.

The whole of Jagrut is That. The whole of Taijjassa is That. The whole of Shushupti is that. The consciousness running through these three states is That.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Krishna's father was Vasudev with a short 'a' , pronounced like wusoodev

whereas Shri Krishna is VAAsudev with a long A like in glass class grass etc.

for 2 reasons
1. Sanskrit grammer. Son of Vasudev = VAAAsudev (short a becomes long)
Son of Vivasvat = Vaivaswat
Son of Vineeta (female, mother) = Vainiteya
Son of Kunti (mother) = Kaunteya (Arjun is Kaunteya)


2. The real reason He is VAsudev is because of His omnipresence. Vaas = residence. One Who resides everywhere an in the heart of every being - VishNu complete - VAsudev
OR
:Like you said - Living God.

VAsudev sarvam iti -- this entire existence is VAsudev.


------
As for the threads discussing KrishNa's historicity -- Yes, KrishNa was in human form on earth around 5300 years ago. His LeelA on earth was for 128 years,
He continues to be here for His devotees and keeps His many promises. He has kept His word..

Any sources regarding His historicity? And reading material? Many thanks.

 

[firedragon]

Do you read DevnAgri script? Like Sanskrit? वसुदेव versus वासुदेवा (Krishna)
|| ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय ||
Unless the roman script has the accentuation for Sanskrit pronunciation, you cannot tell.
All verses in the BhAgvat purAN and MahAbhArat that refer to the Vrishni prince Vasudev (Krishna's father, Devaki's husband) are with a short 'a' - sound: wu like mud, bud

Śhrimad BhAgvat 10.5.20
वसुदेव उपश्रुत्य भ्रातरं नन्दमागतम् ।
ज्ञात्वा दत्तकरं राज्ञे ययौ तदवमोचनम् ॥ २० ॥
vasudeva upaśrutya
bhrātaraṁ nandam āgatam
jñātvā datta-karaṁ rājñe
yayau tad-avamocanam

Translation
When Vasudeva heard that Nanda Mahārāja, his very dear friend and brother, had come to Mathurā and already paid the taxes to Kaṁsa, he went to Nanda Mahārāja’s residence.

--
Vasudeva Sutam Devam
Kamsa Chanoora Mardanam
Devaki Paramaanandam
Krishnam Vande Jagat Gurum
वसुदेवसुतं देवं कंस चाणूर मर्दनम्‌ ।
देवकी परमानन्दं कृष्णं वन्दे जगात्गुरुम्‌ ॥

Word to word meaning: Vasudeva = Vasudeva, Sri Krishna's father; Sutam = to the son (Sutaha = son); Devam = to the Lord/God; Kamsa = Kamsa, Krishna's maternal uncle or mama; Chanoora = Chanoora, a wrestler in Kamsa's court; Mardanam = to the one who killed; Devaki = Devaki, Krishna's mother; Parama = immense; Anandam = to the one who caused joy; Krishnam = to Lord Krishna; Vande = I bow upon/I salute or namaskar; Jagat = world; Gurum = to the teacher.

Meaning: I bow to Lord Krishna, the son of Vasudeva, who was the cause of mother Devaki's immense happiness, and the one who killed the wicked Kamsa and Chanoora, and who is the supreme teacher of the universe.

---------
Whereas, in the Bhagavad Geeta , Arjun calls Krishna VAsudev , and KrishNa says in
BG 10.37 "Among VrishNis I am VAsudev" that means "I am the son of Vasudev => I am VAAsudev

Bhagvad GeetA 10.37
वृष्णीनां वासुदेवोऽस्मि पाण्डवानां धनञ्जय: |
मुनीनामप्यहं व्यास: कवीनामुशना कवि: || 37||

vṛiṣhṇīnāṁ vāsudevo ’smi pāṇḍavānāṁ dhanañjayaḥ <-- Note the bar on the a => long sound
munīnām apyahaṁ vyāsaḥ kavīnām uśhanā kaviḥ

Translation
BG 10.37: Amongst the descendants of Vrishni, I am Krishna, and amongst the Pandavas I am Arjun. Know me to be Ved Vyas amongst the sages, and Shukracharya amongst the great thinkers.

3. See my signature

Thanks a lot for that.

So there is a difference between Vaasudeevaa (Both v's) and the simple svara of vasudeva (Note both V's).

In the examples you gave, both v's are elongated.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Thanks a lot for that.

So there is a difference between Vaasudeevaa (Both v's) and the simple svara of vasudeva (Note both V's).

In the examples you gave, both v's are elongated.

You are very welcome.

Just the first VA is elongated, VAAsudev, not the second. वासुदेव

That second vaa in devnAgri script was a result of cut-n-paste where I could not remove the aakar , because I chopped it off of the word VAAsudevAAya - AAya => To VAsudev (suffix, gramatical).

I am sorry about that - it is fixed now in the post above that you have quoted.

 

[sayak83]

Krishna is regarded by many Hindus as one of the most important deities in Hinduism. He is worshiped as the eighth avatar of the God Vishnu and also as the supreme God in his own right. He is the God of compassion, tenderness, love and is one of the most popular and widely revered among Indian divinities.

Was He a real historic character or are the accounts of His life in Hindu sacred scriptures wholly mythical?

According to Wikipedia:

According to Guy Beck, "most scholars of Hinduism and Indian history accept the historicity of Krishna—that he was a real male person, whether human or divine, who lived on Indian soil by at least 1000 BCE and interacted with many other historical persons within the cycles of the epic and puranic histories." Yet, Beck also notes that there is an "enormous number of contradictions and discrepancies surrounding the chronology of Krishna's life as depicted in the Sanskrit canon."[140]

Lanvanya Vemsani states that Krishna can be inferred to have lived between 3227 BCE – 3102 BCE from the Puranas.[141] A number of scholars, such as A. K. Bansal, B. V. Raman places Krishna's birth year as 3228 BCE.[142][143] A paper[which?] presented in a conference in 2004 by a group of archaeologists, religious scholars and astronomers from Somnath Trust of Gujarat, which was organised at Prabhas Patan, the supposed location of the where Krishna spent his last moments, fixes the death of Sri Krishna on 18 February 3102 BC at the age of 125 years and 7 months.

Krishna - Wikipedia

Is there reasonable evidence to conclude Krishna was a real person or merely wishful thinking on the part of some Hindu scholars?

Krishna, the prince of a princely oligarchy of Dwarika who allied with the Pandavas in a kuru civil war and was instrumental in developing a new socio political order around 1000 BCE in India... is likely historical.
The stories around young Krishna in Mathura is unlikely to be historical. More mythology.
Not that it ought to matter much.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not that it ought to matter much.

I concur, and have always found history odd. Not history itself, but the infatuation with it. That attachment hinders living in the present, getting stuff done. Fact is, millions of people seek his solace and love everyday, and they believe it improves their lives. That ought to be sufficient.

 

[firedragon]

You are very welcome.

Just the first VA is elongated, VAAsudev, not the second. वासुदेव

That second vaa in devnAgri script was a result of cut-n-paste where I could not remove the aakar , because I chopped it off of the word VAAsudevAAya - AAya => To VAsudev (suffix, gramatical).

I am sorry about that - it is fixed now in the post above that you have quoted.

Alright brother. I understand. Thanks.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Any sources regarding His historicity? And reading material? Many thanks.

Namaste and thanks for your patience while I compiled this:

Historicity of KrishNa

VAsudev-KRshNa (long a sound in VA) , the son of VRshNi prince Vasudev (short a sound), appeared on earth 5300 years ago (we will come back to address this date)

Ample evidence exists for VAsudev-KRshNa through

(i) The existence and narrations of BhAgavatas , the most ancient devotees of VAsudev , also called "VAsudevaka" as in OF/belonging to/devotees of VAsudev - per Grammarian Panini.
175-135 BCE: Garuda pillars erected by BhAgvatas. Krishna (lit. "black one") born a khsatriya among the Yadavas at Mathura, SE of Delhi, son of Vasudeva and Devaki. Brought up by cowherds in the area of Vrindaban.

(ii) Ca. 750 BCE : Mention of Krishna, son of Devaki, in Chandogya Up. (3.17.6).
ChhAndogya Upanishad - one of the original ancient canon of Upanishads mentions KrishNa, Devaki-putra (Krishna, the son of Devaki) along with the sage Ghor Angiras of the Angiras lineage.

(iii) 500 BCE: Panini mentions bhakti in reference to Krishna and references Vasudeva, Krishna's father
Panini's grammar examples: VAsudevaka = Of/belonging to/Devotee Of VAsudev, VAsudev = Son of Vasudev

(iv) 3rd BCE: Patanjali knows of Krishna's escape from the demon prince Kansa as an "anicent" story. Bas relief of "slaughter of infants" from this period now in the Mathura museum. (Patanjali is the father of AshTAnga Yoga and believed to be an avatAr of Adi-Shesh, who inturn is believed to be born as the great Acharya Ramanuja.)

(v) The Greeks who came to India - had a lot of reverence for KRshNa and Balaram, so much that they engraved His pictures on their coins and pillars. They were also His admirers and devotees.
2nd BCE: Greek ambassador Megathenes reports of worship of Krishna, incarnation of Vishnu.


(v) Archelogical findings in Andhra Pradesh of VRshNi heroes Krishna(VAsudev), BalarAm(SankarshaN) - elder brother, Padyumna - son, Aniruddha - grandson, SAmbh (son) , ruins of an ancient city under sea , Dwarka , carbon-dated to 5000 - 10000 years. Most recent expedition in 1980s and 1990s by Dr. Rao of Banglore.

------------
VAsudev-KRshNa - General info

Vāsudeva (IAST vāsudeva, वासुदेव), later incorporated as Vāsudeva-Krishna (IAST vāsudeva kṛṣṇa "Krishna, son of Vasudeva"),[8][9][10] Krishna-Vāsudeva or simply Krishna, was the son of Vasudeva Anakadundubhi, king of the Vrishnis in the region of Mathura.[11] He was a leading member of the Vrishni heroes, and may well have been an historical ruler in the region of Mathura

Bactria coin-currency

Krishna on a coin of Agathocles of Bactria, 190-180 BCE
The picture below: The white umbrella that was always above His head - in honor, and the crown is really a war helmet that He had to wear to protect DwarkA from invasions. The wheel is the unique Sudarshan chakra in His hand / on His finger, which He never used but as a last resort to punish extreme wickedness when all else failed.

The VRishNi Heroes - KrishNa-BalarAm a.k.a. VAsudev-SankarshaN

Vrishni heroes on the coinage of Agathocles of Bactria, circa 190-180 BCE: Samkarshana, with Gada mace and plow, and Vāsudeva, with Shankha (a pear-shaped case or conch) and Chakra wheel.[1][2][3] This is "the earliest unambiguous image" of the two deities

The 5 VRshNi Heroes

The five Vrishni heroes Saṃkarṣaṇa, Vāsudeva, Pradyumna, Samba, Aniruddha standing around enthroned Narasimha. Kondamotu Vrishni heroes relief, 4th century CE, Hyderabad State Museum. Found in the literature and archaeological sites of ancient India. Their earliest worship is attestable in the clan of the Vrishnis near Mathura by 4th-century BCE.

Citings in Sanskrit Grammarian Panini's books
He appears in Pāṇinis writings in conjunction with Arjuna as an object of worship, since Pāṇini explains that a vāsudevaka is a devotee (bhakta) of Vāsudeva
(Just as I explained earlier, VAAsudev is son of Vasudev)

Other Religions and geographical regions
Evidence of KRshNa and elder brother Balaram is found, not only in the earliest BhAgvat cult/tradition, but also in the texts of Jainism and Buddhism. According to the Jains, an era has tirthankars, chakravartis, vAsudev and sankarshaN and "A VAsudev is a very powerful and gracious personality, and the earth shakes with His every step." - Dada Bhagwan

ChhAndogya Upanishad - one of the earliest original upanishad cannon
ChhAndogya Up. 3.17.6 :
Ghora Angirasa, after imparting this meditation that was such, to KRshNa, son of Devaki , said, "At the time of death, one should repeat these three mantras: 'You are undecaying(immortal), You are unchanging, You are the vital force (prANa) made completely fine (subtle)". He verily became free from the thirst [for any other kind of meditation]. In this regard, there are 2 Rg Veda ruchis

The Heliodorus pillar & The Temple of VAsudev
- the devotees of VAsudev-KRshNa as Supreme expand beyond Bharat

By the end of the 2nd century BCE, Vāsudeva was considered as Devadeva, the "God of Gods", the Supreme Deity (by those outside the BhAgvat cult), whose emblem was the mythical bird Garuda, as known from the Heliodorus pillar inscription. This pillar, offered by the Greek ambassador and devotee Heliodorus, also shows that Vāsudeva even received dedications from the Indo-Greeks, who also represented him on the coinage of Agathocles of Bactria (190-180 BCE). The Heliodorus pillar, joining earth, space and heaven, is thought to symbolize the "cosmic axis" and express the cosmic totality of the Deity.[21] Next to the pillar, a large Temple of Vāsudeva was discovered, where he was celebrated together with his deified kinsmen, the Vrishni heroes.

Temple of VAsudev excavations

Excavation of the huge Temple of Vāsudeva next to the Heliodorus pillar, dated to the 2nd century BCE, Vidisha.[42] The Temple measured 30x30 meters, and the walls were 2.4 meters thick.[43] A earlier and smaller elliptic temple structure underneath probably dates to the end of the 3rd century BCE

Date of KRshNa's earthly appearance
The date of JanmshTami 5300 yrs ago was calculated by expert Vedic astronomers based on the arrangement of stars at the time of appearance as narrated in the accounts compared to the arrangement of constellations today. KRshNa was born when the Moon was in RohiNi Nakshatra - a special constellation, in the monsoon season of ShravaN-Bhadrapad (Aup-Sep of English caendar. We can go into the papers on the details.

Vasudev (with a short a sound) : Krishna, Balaram and Subhadra's father

The Vrishnis were an ancient vedic Indian clan who were believed to be the descendants of Vrishni,the ancestor of Yadu. It is believed that Vrishni was father of Satvata, a ancestor of Yadu, the son of Yayati. He had two wives, Gandhari and Madri. He has a son named Devamidhusha by his wife Madri. Vasudeva, the father of Krishna was the grandson of Devamidhusha.[3] According to the Puranas, the Vrishnis were residents of Dvaraka.

VRshNi coin:

Silver coin of a "King Vrishni" (of the Audumbaras according to Cunningham). Obv Pillar with half-lion and half-elephant, surmounted by a Triratna symbol and surrounded by Buddhist railing.

Vrishnis in ancient literature

Pāṇini in his Ashtadhyayi (IV.1.114, VI.2.34) mentioned about the Vrishnis along with the Andhakas. The Arthashastra of Kautilya described the Vrishnis as a sangha (tribal confederation). In the Mahabharata (Drona Parva, 141.15) the Vrishnis and the Andhakas are referred as Vratyas.

"Vāsudeva" is the first name to appear in the epigraphical record and in the earliest literary sources such as the writings of Pāṇini.

Demo: VAsudevaka = a devotee of VAsudev -- grammar example by Panini

Panini's table - AshTAdhyayi: Ashtadhyayi | work by Panini
Wiki:

Pāṇini (Sanskrit: पाणिनि) (pronounced [paːɳɪnɪ], variously dated between fl. 4th century BCE[1][2][3][4] and "6th to 5th century BCE" was an ancient Sanskrit philologist, grammarian, and a revered scholar in ancient India. Since the discovery and publication of his work by European scholars in the nineteenth century, Pāṇini has been considered the "first descriptive linguist",[11] and even labelled as “the father of linguistics”.[12][13][14] Pāṇini's grammar was influential on such foundational linguists as Ferdinand de Saussure and Leonard Bloomfield

Back to the Greeks: "Harkales" --- "Hari-KRshNa" ?
Wiki sources:

Vāsudeva is often identified with Megasthenes' Herakles, the deity similar to the Greek God Herakles, son of Zeus, who, according to Megasthenes was revered in Mathura at the time of his writing, circa 300 BCE:[39][1]
Such, then are the traditions regarding Dionysus and his descendants current among the Indians who inhabit the hill-country. They further assert that Herakles also was born among them. They assign to him like Greeks, the clubs and the lion's skin. He far surpassed other men in personal strength and prowess, and cleared sea and land of evil beasts. Marrying many wives he begot many sons, but one daughter only. The sons having reached man's estate, he divided all India into equal portions for his children, whom he made kings in different parts of his dominion. He provided similarly for his daughter, whom he reared up and made a queen. He was the founder, also, of no small number of cities, the most renowned and greatest of which he called Palibothra (Pataliputra).
— Extract from Megasthenes's Indica[40]
Arrian, in Indika, quoting from Megasthenes, also mentions Mathura and the Yamuna river in relation with this Indian god identified as Herakles:
About Herakles he writes: "Herakles, however, who is currently reported to have come as a stranger into the country, is said to have been in reality a native of India. This Herakles (Hari-Krishna) is held in a special honor by the Sourasenoi (Sursena-clan - Vasudev's father is Sursen), an Indian tribe that possesses two large cities, Methora (MathurA) and Kleisobora (KRshNapur?), and through whose country flows a navigable river called Iobares (Yamuna) "
— Arrian, Indika Chapter VIII.[41]


It has also been proposed to identify the word "Herakles" with "Hari-Krishna".[39] According to Upinder Singh, "Vāsudeva-Krishna was the Indian God bearing the closest resemblance to the Greek God Herakles".[1][/QUOTE]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Namaste and thanks for your patience while I compiled this:

Historicity of KrishNa

VAsudev-KRshNa (long a sound in VA) , the son of VRshNi prince Vasudev (short a sound), appeared on earth 5300 years ago (we will come back to address this date)

Ample evidence exists for VAsudev-KRshNa through

(i) The existence and narrations of BhAgavatas , the most ancient devotees of VAsudev , also called "VAsudevaka" as in OF/belonging to/devotees of VAsudev - per Grammarian Panini.
175-135 BCE: Garuda pillars erected by BhAgvatas. Krishna (lit. "black one") born a khsatriya among the Yadavas at Mathura, SE of Delhi, son of Vasudeva and Devaki. Brought up by cowherds in the area of Vrindaban.

(ii) Ca. 750 BCE : Mention of Krishna, son of Devaki, in Chandogya Up. (3.17.6).
ChhAndogya Upanishad - one of the original ancient canon of Upanishads mentions KrishNa, Devaki-putra (Krishna, the son of Devaki) along with the sage Ghor Angiras of the Angiras lineage.

(iii) 500 BCE: Panini mentions bhakti in reference to Krishna and references Vasudeva, Krishna's father
Panini's grammar examples: VAsudevaka = Of/belonging to/Devotee Of VAsudev, VAsudev = Son of Vasudev

(iv) 3rd BCE: Patanjali knows of Krishna's escape from the demon prince Kansa as an "anicent" story. Bas relief of "slaughter of infants" from this period now in the Mathura museum. (Patanjali is the father of AshTAnga Yoga and believed to be an avatAr of Adi-Shesh, who inturn is believed to be born as the great Acharya Ramanuja.)

(v) The Greeks who came to India - had a lot of reverence for KRshNa and Balaram, so much that they engraved His pictures on their coins and pillars. They were also His admirers and devotees.
2nd BCE: Greek ambassador Megathenes reports of worship of Krishna, incarnation of Vishnu.


(v) Archelogical findings in Andhra Pradesh of VRshNi heroes Krishna(VAsudev), BalarAm(SankarshaN) - elder brother, Padyumna - son, Aniruddha - grandson, SAmbh (son) , ruins of an ancient city under sea , Dwarka , carbon-dated to 5000 - 10000 years. Most recent expedition in 1980s and 1990s by Dr. Rao of Banglore.

------------
VAsudev-KRshNa - General info

The crown on the head is really a war helmet that He had to wear to protect DwarkA from invasions. The wheel is the unique Sudarshan chakra in His hand / on His finger, which He never used but as a last resort to punish extreme wickedness when all else failed.

The VRishNi Heroes - KrishNa-BalarAm a.k.a. VAsudev-SankarshaN
View attachment 47403 View attachment 47404


The 5 VRshNi Heroes
View attachment 47405


Citings in Sanskrit Grammarian Panini's books
He appears in Pāṇinis writings in conjunction with Arjuna as an object of worship, since Pāṇini explains that a vāsudevaka is a devotee (bhakta) of Vāsudeva
(Just as I explained earlier, VAAsudev is son of Vasudev)

Other Religions and geographical regions
Evidence of KRshNa and elder brother Balaram is found, not only in the earliest BhAgvat cult/tradition, but also in the texts of Jainism and Buddhism. According to the Jains, an era has tirthankars, chakravartis, vAsudev and sankarshaN and "A VAsudev is a very powerful and gracious personality, and the earth shakes with His every step." - Dada Bhagwan

ChhAndogya Upanishad - one of the earliest original upanishad cannon
ChhAndogya Up. 3.17.6 :
Ghora Angirasa, after imparting this meditation that was such, to KRshNa, son of Devaki , said, "At the time of death, one should repeat these three mantras: 'You are undecaying(immortal), You are unchanging, You are the vital force (prANa) made completely fine (subtle)". He verily became free from the thirst [for any other kind of meditation]. In this regard, there are 2 Rg Veda ruchis

The Heliodorus pillar & The Temple of VAsudev
- the devotees of VAsudev-KRshNa as Supreme expand beyond Bharat
View attachment 47410


Temple of VAsudev excavations
View attachment 47406View attachment 47407



Date of KRshNa's earthly appearance
The date of JanmshTami 5300 yrs ago was calculated by expert Vedic astronomers based on the arrangement of stars at the time of appearance as narrated in the accounts compared to the arrangement of constellations today. KRshNa was born when the Moon was in RohiNi Nakshatra - a special constellation, in the monsoon season of ShravaN-Bhadrapad (Aup-Sep of English caendar. We can go into the papers on the details.

Vasudev (with a short a sound) : Krishna, Balaram and Subhadra's father


VRshNi coin:
View attachment 47408


Vrishnis in ancient literature



Demo: VAsudevaka = a devotee of VAsudev -- grammar example by Panini

Panini's table - AshTAdhyayi: Ashtadhyayi | work by Panini
Wiki:


Back to the Greeks: "Harkales" --- "Hari-KRshNa" ?
Wiki sources:

Vāsudeva is often identified with Megasthenes' Herakles, the deity similar to the Greek God Herakles, son of Zeus, who, according to Megasthenes was revered in Mathura at the time of his writing, circa 300 BCE:[39][1]
Such, then are the traditions regarding Dionysus and his descendants current among the Indians who inhabit the hill-country. They further assert that Herakles also was born among them. They assign to him like Greeks, the clubs and the lion's skin. He far surpassed other men in personal strength and prowess, and cleared sea and land of evil beasts. Marrying many wives he begot many sons, but one daughter only. The sons having reached man's estate, he divided all India into equal portions for his children, whom he made kings in different parts of his dominion. He provided similarly for his daughter, whom he reared up and made a queen. He was the founder, also, of no small number of cities, the most renowned and greatest of which he called Palibothra (Pataliputra).
— Extract from Megasthenes's Indica[40]
Arrian, in Indika, quoting from Megasthenes, also mentions Mathura and the Yamuna river in relation with this Indian god identified as Herakles:
About Herakles he writes: "Herakles, however, who is currently reported to have come as a stranger into the country, is said to have been in reality a native of India. This Herakles (Hari-Krishna) is held in a special honor by the Sourasenoi (Sursena-clan - Vasudev's father is Sursen), an Indian tribe that possesses two large cities, Methora (MathurA) and Kleisobora (KRshNapur?), and through whose country flows a navigable river called Iobares (Yamuna) "
— Arrian, Indika Chapter VIII.[41]


It has also been proposed to identify the word "Herakles" with "Hari-Krishna".[39] According to Upinder Singh, "Vāsudeva-Krishna was the Indian God bearing the closest resemblance to the Greek God Herakles".[1]

The good thing for me is I know in my heart that Krishna existed and that Krishna taught us how to become united as one people.

I would always be happy in uniting with all those that follow the path Krishna pointed us to. Together we could all become better people in service to each other.

The quandary we all face is we have been given an opportunity to consider if the Most Great Spirit,’ the ’Tenth Avatar,’ the ‘Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna’ has now come.

Regards Tony

 

[ameyAtmA]

The quandary we all face is we have been given an opportunity to consider if the Most Great Spirit,’ the ’Tenth Avatar,’ the ‘Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna’ has now come.

Regards Tony

I did not quite understand.
Bahaulla is not Krishna - that is too far fetched.
Why can't he just be Bahaulla?