Lai Thomas exposed. Quite literally.

[Subduction Zone]

Okay, can I just like say something that is perhaps coloured by my not living in America?
So this whole thread is about locker rooms in a high school, is that correct?
Just so I’m fully clear about this, a locker room in this context is like the ones shown on US tv shows right? Big open area where people can change their clothes and take showers presumably behind like a door or curtain or something, right?!

Why do you guys even have those so exposed in the first place?
By that I mean, okay whenever we had swimming carnivals for school or whatever, we would get changed in large rooms with their own individual cabinet things. I guess you would call them “stalls”
We go in, set up shop in one of the stalls, close the door so we have full privacy and then get changed.
At least where I live

They’re called “changing rooms” here. (I know real original, but our English usage is quite drunk lol)
Mind you I’m talking about like public pools and stuff like that so it isn’t like all fancy or that well maintained (bare minimum cleaning standards to avoid the health inspector Iow)
But still.

Come to think of it we don’t really have locker rooms on our public high schools anyway, unless it has a pool. Not the way the US sets them up anyway. Again, at least where I live
If you have to change your clothes here for something, you use the toilets/bathroom. Again individual stalls and this is just something kind of weird that I noticed. But our doors for the individual toilet stalls here actually go a lot lower than in the US (from what I’ve seen.)
So that’s a bit, interesting I guess.

I apologise if I’m misunderstanding the situation. It’s just that you would have to kind of go out of your way here to even catch a glimpse of a naked body in our changing rooms. (Usually) So I’m just wondering why this seemingly comes up a fair few times in the US

It could be. Locker rooms in America are very open. If you are in a men's locker room you will see lots of naked men. I assume that it is the same for women. There are no such things as "changing rooms". You sit on a bench and get dressed.

 

[We Never Know]

Those are physicals in the sense of an "annual physical exam." That is not what a sports physical typically consists of. They are mostly pulmonary and cardio-vascular function.

And doctors don't "fondle" your testicles -- what a bizarre statement. They are palpating the area from which your testicles descended just before or after birth, to see if there is a weakness that might suggest a hernia.

Really! They don't grasp the testes and have you cough? The ******** were molesting me then

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Except that they have not fully shrunken often .

Do you know a time line of how long this takes? Been awhile so I don't remember myself. But I do know it wasn't long at all before my shirts were more baggy and my shoulders looked smaller.
You also have to remember, muscles are use it or lose it. If someone is training rigorously before beginning hormones and keeps up with it we can expect muscle loss to be minimal. But that's not most transwomen.

 

[We Never Know]

Do you know a time line of how long this takes? Been awhile so I don't remember myself. But I do know it wasn't long at all before my shirts were more baggy and my shoulders looked smaller.
You also have to remember, muscles are use it or lose it. If someone is training rigorously before beginning hormones and keeps up with it we can expect muscle loss to be minimal. But that's not most transwomen.

"my shirts were more baggy and my shoulders looked smaller"

Yep less physical activity will cause that too. SSo will age

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you know a time line of how long this takes? Been awhile so I don't remember myself. But I do know it wasn't long at all before my shirts were more baggy and my shoulders looked smaller.
You also have to remember, muscles are use it or lose it. If someone is training rigorously before beginning hormones and keeps up with it we can expect muscle loss to be minimal. But that's not most transwomen.

No, and some muscles are going to atrophy faster than others and also athletes do keep training while on testosterone suspending drugs. So it is not quite "use it or lose it". All that I can do is to look at what level they were competing at before and after. I have heard that combat sports may be a lifetime no compete situation if the person did not start hormone therapy until they were adults. I have seen trans athletes that still look like a man even when compared to other female athletes in the same sport. There may not be a problem with people that started on hormone therapy before puberty. Puberty changes males quite a bit. Some of the changes cannot be undone.

 

[SomeRandom]

It could be. Locker rooms in America are very open. If you are in a men's locker room you will see lots of naked men. I assume that it is the same for women. There are no such things as "changing rooms". You sit on a bench and get dressed.

And you guys are supposed to be the “prudes” lol

 

[We Never Know]

And you guys are supposed to be the “prudes” lol

Prudes???? You have one too many letters in there... We are the "rudes"

 

[JDMS]

I'd like to at least see single-use changing rooms or bathrooms near the locker room for transgender athletes or students alike.

I don't know about forcing segregation, but at least providing the trans folks a place to do their business in private is a good idea in general. It protects the trans person from harassment, and the others from offense.

Other than this? I don't know a perfect solution. Trans folks deserve equality, but cis women deserve to feel safe. It would be nice if there wasn't an inherent fear of phalluses as being potentially dangerous, but there's so many women and females in general that have been traumatized or raised around risk that it's impossible to expect all of them to feel safe and comfortable around phalluses in such an exposed area.

As for trans women performing in women's sports in general, it's a difficult discussion.

It reminds (though it's not exactly the same) me of learning about racial segregation or ethnic superiority in sports during the Civil rights era.

Many people argue that those of West-African decent are naturally better at certain sports. For example, before the 2004 Athens Games, 494 of the top 500 times for the 100m were held by sprinters who were of West-African descent. Most people who have run under 10 seconds are of West-African decent as well.

There's also a common sentiment among East Asians (and towards East Asians) that we are naturally inferior at most sports besides tennis and badminton and the like. I was never sought of for sports because of my race despite my height.

Many people argue that these racial differences are purely societal, but I doubt that average height, flexibility, lung capacity, etc do not come into play.

Even among two women of the same race, you might see major height differences. One girl may be 5'3 while another girl is 5'10. The 5'10 girl will likely be sought out by the high school basketball coach while the 5'3 girl is not.

Then we consider trans women vs cis women.

How do we handle these perceived or real biological advantages in sports? Where do we draw the line between fairness and equality? How much will we limit others based on the physical traits and genetics they were born with?

It will be a long game of tug of war, if I had to guess.

 

[We Never Know]

I'd like to at least see single-use changing rooms or bathrooms near the locker room for transgender athletes or students alike.

I don't know about forcing segregation, but at least providing the trans folks a place to do their business in private is a good idea in general. It protects the trans person from harassment, and the others from offense.

Other than this? I don't know a perfect solution. Trans folks deserve equality, but cis women deserve to feel safe. It would be nice if there wasn't an inherent fear of phalluses as being potentially dangerous, but there's so many women and females in general that have been traumatized or raised around risk that it's impossible to expect all of them to feel safe and comfortable around phalluses in such an exposed area.

As for trans women performing in women's sports in general, it's a difficult discussion.

It reminds (though it's not exactly the same) me of learning about racial segregation or ethnic superiority in sports during the Civil rights era.

Many people argue that those of West-African decent are naturally better at certain sports. For example, before the 2004 Athens Games, 494 of the top 500 times for the 100m were held by sprinters who were of West-African descent. Most people who have run under 10 seconds are of West-African decent as well.

There's also a common sentiment among East Asians (and towards East Asians) that we are naturally inferior at most sports besides tennis and badminton and the like. I was never sought of for sports because of my race despite my height.

Many people argue that these racial differences are purely societal, but I doubt that average height, flexibility, lung capacity, etc do not come into play.

Even among two women of the same race, you might see major height differences. One girl may be 5'3 while another girl is 5'10. The 5'10 girl will likely be sought out by the high school basketball coach while the 5'3 girl is not.

Then we consider trans women vs cis women.

How do we handle these perceived or real biological advantages in sports? Where do we draw the line between fairness and equality? How much will we limit others based on the physical traits and genetics they were born with?

It will be a long game of tug of war, if I had to guess.

"I'd like to at least see single-use changing rooms or bathrooms near the locker room for transgender athletes or students alike"

^^^^^this^^^^^

 

[Subduction Zone]

And you guys are supposed to be the “prudes” lol

Aah, but there is nothing sexual in single sex nudity since homosexuality does not exist here

 

[Aštra’el]

Male athletes tend to be bigger, badder, stronger and faster than their female counterparts. Females tend to feel less threatened stripping down, changing and showering around other females, then they would with males.

Its perfectly understandable. The solution here is, reserve the female locker rooms for non-trans females only. The males aren’t going to feel threatened by a trans dude changing with them. Trans men aren’t the problem, not in sports, not in bathrooms, and not in locker rooms. It’s trans women.

So, sports have to adapt… unless they want trans women completely ruining the female athletic experience. Here is a strat. Build a separate area into the facilities for “other”. It can include a single shower, a toilet and sink, and a few lockers. Yearly physicals for athletes will among other things determine who has a sword and who has a sheath. Transgenders can compete in their own divisions, or with the men/ boys… while female sports become exclusively for non-trans females, and female locker rooms remain exclusively for non trans females.

 

[Curious George]

Locker rooms are not "public spaces" in that sense.

two thoughts: one, are you sure? And two, we had drifted to public nudity in general.

A person does have a right to privacy from the opposite sex.

perhaps in some places, but generally this is not true. A person has the expectation of privacy from the opposite gender, and given the accommodations this is generally a reasonable expectation. But this is much different than having a right to such. Simple notice would cure that expectation.

This is a troublesome area for transgender people.

indeed.

So who is to suffer? The majority or the minority when it comes to a right to privacy?

is it really suffering? Not having access to a facilities is suffering. I am not so sure incidental exposure to a penis, vagina, or breasts is “suffering.”

An unalerted female seeing a biological male in a women's locker room is a cause for concern to her.

. Perhaps they should not be unalerted.

Sports is an area that is loaded with problems when it comes to transgender issues. There are still some very big wrinkles to iron out. Too many transwomen still have benefits of being born biologically male.

a very separate issue. Concerns on this front do not touch the restroom/locker room/ public nudity topic

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Did you do any organized sports? I know for guys that we had to undergo a physical and part of that involves checking the groin area for potential hernias.

Played heaps and heaps, and that didn't happen as a matter of course for me (only in response to injury). It did happen for me in terms of general medical checkups through puberty. Also not suggesting that's 'normal', just my experience.

I coach girls sports now (pretty competitive, teenage kids), and no one is checking genitals.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Other than this? I don't know a perfect solution. Trans folks deserve equality, but cis women deserve to feel safe.

It's not just cis and trans women.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Played heaps and heaps, and that didn't happen as a matter of course for me (only in response to injury). It did happen for me in terms of general medical checkups through puberty. Also not suggesting that's 'normal', just my experience.

I coach girls sports now (pretty competitive, teenage kids), and no one is checking genitals.

I know it is pretty much normal for boys. And no one is "checking genitals" but one is going to feel the testes a bit as part of a check up. I am not advocating any special checking nor am I for the violation of doctor patient confidentiality. I was just going over what happens.

 

[JDMS]

It's not just cis and trans women.

I'm aware. The issue is complicated and many choose to ignore trans men. This thread was more focused on cis women feeling uncomfortable seeing a phallus in the changing room, hence why I didn't mention my fellow FTMs. Personally, as a trans man, I do not feel safe changing in front of cisgender men (I've experienced 'corrective' r*pe), and that's part of the reason I advocate for single-use rooms for trans people.

Also, as far as simply using a bathroom goes, there's really no argument that trans folks should not be allowed in their chosen bathroom. Cis women should not feel intimidated by a trans woman peeing in the stall next to her in provate, and as a trans man, I feel perfectly safe using men's stalls, as I pass as male. No one would know unless they saw my genitals. That's why changing rooms specifically are a problem for me.