Last February, Trump signed a bill making it easier for people with mental illness to buy guns

[Skipper]

One could also argue you wouldn't even have a free society to raise your children if it wasn't for guns.

A society that refuses to make it impossible for mentally ill from obtain guns, a society that refuses to have reasonable checks and balances on the purchase of guns, a society that allows people to purchase with ease military assault weapons at the expense of its children is a sick society.

Another thing is that people ought to stop calling young adults children.

I consider anyone still in high school a child, not a young adult. To me the age of being a young adult begins with the 20th birthday ... assuming they are also mentally of that age. I do not consider teenagers as young adults.

 

[Revoltingest]

What does it matter what level of training when the laws do not enforce the level of training required to own a gun.

I would support the gun control measures to force gun owners more training and, especially, evaluations.

Your question doesn't support the current US system. It's a hypothetical that would support tighter gun control.

The teacher training proposal I made was just one of many.
And the question wasn't about supporting anything....just understanding the statistics.

 

[Revoltingest]

A society that refuses to make it impossible for mentally ill from obtain guns....

Note that this wasn't the effect of the bill Trump signed.
(The OP's title is misleading.)
It had to do with automatic loss of gun rights for some
Social Security recipients. It might've even applied to
me because I have someone else balance my checking
accounts.

 

[Revoltingest]

Also, do teachers have to arm themselves now? Is that part of the solution?

No.
They're prohibited from being armed in schools.

The solution is to have every organization be armed like if they're police or military, right?

No, I've never proposed that.
In fact, the military is largely disarmed too (while on base or in public).

 

[Altfish]

Guns sold are quite safe when used as designed for legal purposes. The problem isn’t the gun. It is their misuse that is the problem.

The UK has strict restrictions on gun ownership and usage - it has a death rate due t fire arms equal to approximately one fiftieth of the death rate of the US. So do US gun owners misuse more than UK gun owners?

 

[Curious George]

The UK has strict restrictions on gun ownership and usage - it has a death rate due t fire arms equal to approximately one fiftieth of the death rate of the US. So do US gun owners misuse more than UK gun owners?

The UK has a homicide rate of about 1/5 of the U.S. and a comparable suicide rate. Is it possible that when we are not talking discrepancies of a factor of 50, that it is other factors beyond guns that are determinitive of the amount of people dying?

 

[Altfish]

The UK has a homicide rate of about 1/5 of the U.S. and a comparable suicide rate. Is it possible that when we are not talking discrepancies of a factor of 50, that it is other factors beyond guns that are determinitive of the amount of people dying?

According to Wikipedia the death rate per 100,000 due to all types of gun related death, including suicides are...

UK - 0.23
US - 10.54

Now my maths isn't brilliant but that isn't a lot less than 50 times as many.

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia

 

[Curious George]

According to Wikipedia the death rate per 100,000 due to all types of gun related death, including suicides are...

UK - 0.23
US - 10.54

Now my maths isn't brilliant but that isn't a lot less than 50 times as many.

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia

I think a large part of the confusion is that people who advocate gun control associate homicide rate with gun related death.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

What does gun related death include? Does it include suicide? Are we talking about suicide? Do you have a reason to believe that taking away guns will change the numbers of suicide significantly?

 

[Altfish]

I think a large part of the confusion is that people who advocate gun control associate homicide rate with gun related death.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

What does gun related death include? Does it include suicide? Are we talking about suicide? Do you have a reason to believe that taking away guns will change the numbers of suicide significantly?

Suicide must be counted. I'm no expert and I stand to be corrected but suicide can be a cry for help. If guns are easily available and you decide to shoot yourself, you don't usually get a second chance. If you slit your wrist or whatever because you can't get to a gun, you may be found.

 

[Curious George]

Suicide must be counted. I'm no expert and I stand to be corrected but suicide can be a cry for help. If guns are easily available and you decide to shoot yourself, you don't usually get a second chance. If you slit your wrist or whatever because you can't get to a gun, you may be found.

Suicides in the UK - Office for National Statistics

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Notice how the suicide rates are similar. Are guns really a factor?

 

[Altfish]

Suicides in the UK - Office for National Statistics

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Notice how the suicide rates are similar. Are guns really a factor?

Interesting, it appears I am wrong.

 

[Altfish]

Interesting, it appears I am wrong.

Although this chart shows a significant difference in rates...
US -12.6; UK - 7.6

List of sovereign states by suicide rate - Wikipedia

 

[Curious George]

Interesting, it appears I am wrong.

Hold on, it is not so clear cut. The u.k. on average does have a lower suicide rate (and the Japan has a higher one). We cannot conclude guns are not a factor, we just can't draw a causal relationship. It is likely that a country which promotes guns might promote other philosophical viewpoints that do not value life as much. But, taking away the guns won't fix that.

I am not saying there is no connection between suicide, homicide, and mass killings. I am simply trying to have people realize that it is far more complicated than guns.

From my point of view, everyone wants to blame guns or even mental health. It is very, very unlikely that any one factor is a cause. It is likely that there are multiple problems that all need to be addressed. And of those issues, I personally, think gun ownership is at the bottom of the list.

 

[Curious George]

Although this chart shows a significant difference in rates...
US -12.6; UK - 7.6

List of sovereign states by suicide rate - Wikipedia

Perhaps it is not age-standardized, or perhaps it is just older information. The U.K. source I gave was the office for national statistics.

And the U.S. source has a higher rate than your source as well.

Either way, we are talking about factor of less than 2. And there are many more differences that could account for such a factor.

 

[suncowiam]

But I needn't prove that guns improve the public safety. I only need show they are not a causal factor with regard to death rates.

Suggesting that I am failing to bring statistics to the table doesn't mean that I was wrong. When you looked at intentional homicide rates did you find that I was off?
You are discussing "The facts still show that US is still behind other Western nations," yet I noticed you included Japan which certainly has one of the lowest homicide rates and is not a western country.

Remove them and my 0-5 number is really close. (Nevermind, it was already much closer than your 10-100). Still, somehow I am wrong because I didn't link it? This is not a published paper I am writing. I questioned your use of gun deaths in order to make the claim that decreasing guns would decrease murder. That fact is not substantiated. Decreasing guns will decrease gun deaths. It will not necessarily reduce homicide rates or total death rates.

But would you like me to give examples of countries with stricter gun laws and more deaths? Or does the fact that we are not talking about some great factor of reduced deaths or homicides make this more apparent to you?

You didn't disprove anything... You suggested some notions without any proper statistics. They were at best speculation and suggestions.

The correlations do not have to be one to one. They are not the same subjects so they should not be one to one. The correlations just need to prove a trend. We both know smoking is bad concerning asthma and bad concerning cancer. The rate of asthma related diseases and cancer related diseases will obviously not be one to one. But both diseases will be increased due to smoking.

The statistics show a correlation of HIGHER gun violence with looser gun laws. The statistics show a correlation of HIGHER homicides with looser gun laws. Every single Western developed country that has stricter gun laws has less gun violence and less homicides than the US.

What else do you need?

Japan is definitely a Western nation. It is not that it has a conservative base. It is how the country is ruled from as a democracy, as a republic and how it enables liberty and freedom to its citizens.
Is Japan a Western country ?

Even if you some how proved that Japan is not a Western nation, there are plenty of other Western developed countries to take its place to show that stricter gun laws show less gun violence and homicides. You didn't choose to argue with UK nor Australia. You're now simply deflecting and obfuscating the subject.

Honestly, I'm done. This has been become a typical debate with an advocate in denial who rather chooses to be biased than face the facts.

 

[Curious George]

You didn't disprove anything... You suggested some notions without any proper statistics. They were at best speculation and suggestions.

The correlations do not have to be one to one. They are not the same subjects so they should not be one to one. The correlations just need to prove a trend. We both know smoking is bad concerning asthma and bad concerning cancer. The rate of asthma related diseases and cancer related diseases will obviously not be one to one. But both diseases will be increased due to smoking.

The statistics show a correlation of HIGHER gun violence with looser gun laws. The statistics show a correlation of HIGHER homicides with looser gun laws. Every single Western developed country that has stricter gun laws has less gun violence and less homicides than the US.

What else do you need?

Japan is definitely a Western nation. It is not that it has a conservative base. It is how the country is ruled from as a democracy, as a republic and how it enables liberty and freedom to its citizens.
Is Japan a Western country ?

Even if you some how proved that Japan is not a Western nation, there are plenty of other Western developed countries to take its place to show that stricter gun laws show less gun violence and homicides. You didn't choose to argue with UK nor Australia. You're now simply deflecting and obfuscating the subject.

Honestly, I'm done. This has been become a typical debate with an advocate in denial who rather chooses to be biased than face the facts.

You seem confused. You are still going on about gun violence, while I am talking about homicide. If you had rather we could talk about violence. Of course there is a causal relationship of guns to gun violence. But that does not mean there is a causal relationship of guns to violence or murder.

You feel like I am obfuscating the subject but I feel like you are trying to put a simple fix on a complex subject.

Australia or the UK? We are only talking about 4 more homicides per 100k people.

And did you really just send me to another forum to prove your point about Japan being a "Western" country?

I know you want the issue to be cutilized and dry but it is not.

 

[Curious George]

You didn't disprove anything... You suggested some notions without any proper statistics. They were at best speculation and suggestions.

The correlations do not have to be one to one. They are not the same subjects so they should not be one to one. The correlations just need to prove a trend. We both know smoking is bad concerning asthma and bad concerning cancer. The rate of asthma related diseases and cancer related diseases will obviously not be one to one. But both diseases will be increased due to smoking.

The statistics show a correlation of HIGHER gun violence with looser gun laws. The statistics show a correlation of HIGHER homicides with looser gun laws. Every single Western developed country that has stricter gun laws has less gun violence and less homicides than the US.

What else do you need?

Japan is definitely a Western nation. It is not that it has a conservative base. It is how the country is ruled from as a democracy, as a republic and how it enables liberty and freedom to its citizens.
Is Japan a Western country ?

Even if you some how proved that Japan is not a Western nation, there are plenty of other Western developed countries to take its place to show that stricter gun laws show less gun violence and homicides. You didn't choose to argue with UK nor Australia. You're now simply deflecting and obfuscating the subject.

Honestly, I'm done. This has been become a typical debate with an advocate in denial who rather chooses to be biased than face the facts.

You seem confused. You are still going on about gun violence, while I am talking about homicide. If you had rather we could talk about violence. Of course there is a causal relationship of guns to gun violence. But that does not mean there is a causal relationship of guns to violence or murder.

You feel like I am obfuscating the subject but I feel like you are trying to put a simple fix on a complex subject.

Australia or the UK? We are only talking about 4 more homicides per 100k people.

And did you really just send me to another forum to prove your point about Japan being a "Western" country?

I know you want the issue to be cutilized and dry but it is not.

 

[suncowiam]

You seem confused. You are still going on about gun violence, while I am talking about homicide. If you had rather we could talk about violence. Of course there is a causal relationship of guns to gun violence. But that does not mean there is a causal relationship of guns to violence or murder.

You feel like I am obfuscating the subject but I feel like you are trying to put a simple fix on a complex subject.

Australia or the UK? We are only talking about 4 more homicides per 100k people.

And did you really just send me to another forum to prove your point about Japan being a "Western" country?

I know you want the issue to be cutilized and dry but it is not.

I did bring up the statistics of homicide, and that was a ratio per one million. Go look at the source again.

You absolutely read that wrong. You've been mistaken all this time from your understanding of the statistics.

The ratio is a factor of about 4 concerning US compared to UK and Australia.

Again, that means for every 25 homicides in UK or Australia, there is 100 homicides in US. Go back to the source and read it.

It proves a trend. The trend is negative. A factor of 4 is not acceptable in my book.

 

[Curious George]

I did bring up the statistics of homicide, and that was a ratio per one million. Go look at the source again.

You absolutely read that wrong. You've been mistaken all this time from your understanding of the statistics.

The ratio is a factor of about 4 concerning US compared to UK and Australia.

Again, that means for every 25 homicides in UK or Australia, there is 100 homicides in US. Go back to the source and read it.

It proves a trend. The trend is negative. A factor of 4 is not acceptable in my book.

The trend is small. It is a very different than the trend of gun violence. When we look at the disparity between the two types of statistics, we have to ask why we don't see similar disparity between nations in one type as the other type?

Could it be because guns are a relatively small addition to the actual violence? Or could it be because guns don't cause the additional violence and that is caused by other factors. I point to Russia and Brazil as counter examples. We see higher homicide rates in these countries even though they have stricter gun laws than the U.S.
India has much stricter gun laws than the U.S. but the murder rate is only 1 less per 100k. Why is that? Well, it could be cultural factors. But if we allow for cultural factors to explain these discrepancies, how come we do not allow for "cultural factors" to explain the differences in homicide rates between the U.S. and the U.K or Australia

Why are you so certain that it is guns? You haven't shown that. That is what is missing from your argument.

 

[Koldo]

I don't recall ever seeing a bank guard.
And when I enter a bank with a gun, no one notices.
(Of course, that's because they can't see it.)

Do you mean there aren't metal detectors at pretty much every bank's entrance in the USA ?
I am honestly surprised if that's true.