LDS Church Makes 'Surprise' Change on LGBT Issues

[dianaiad]

It was YOUR chart that showed an incredible trend towards oblivion. If you ignore the Fantasy Delusion part -- the "projected" section which was absolutely not based in reality.

My entire point was that the projection section was not based in reality. Hello?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My entire point was that the projection section was not based in reality. Hello?

Except that all the future projections sure seem to follow the historical trend.

The historical data seems noisy, so it woild have been better if they gave a lower and upper limit instead of a single line, but the line itself seems to follow just fine from the data.

If you don't believe me, you can always throw the same numbers into Excel, draw the graph, hit "add trendline" and see what happens.

 

[dianaiad]

Except that all the future projections sure seem to follow the historical trend.

The historical data seems noisy, so it woild have been better if they gave a lower and upper limit instead of a single line, but the line itself seems to follow just fine from the data.

If you don't believe me, you can always throw the same numbers into Excel, draw the graph, hit "add trendline" and see what happens.

They don't. I see you weren't paying attention to the 'Names removed' graph, OR to what I wrote about it.

And I'm done here.

 

[BilliardsBall]

When one person labels another with terms like "immoral" and "serious transgression," they aren't being tolerant.

Judges do it all the time from the bench. You have conflated "tolerance" with "overly tolerant".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Judges do it all the time from the bench.

Are you a judge?

You have conflated "tolerance" with "overly tolerant".

No, I really haven't. There's no tolerance at all in declaring someone "immoral," or in saying that what they do is a "serious transgression." These terms are intolerant... i.e. the opposite of tolerance.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They don't. I see you weren't paying attention to the 'Names removed' graph, OR to what I wrote about it.

I guess you missed when I tagged your reply "informative."

And I'm done here.

Meh.

 

[Baroodi]

Indeed. Irony, considering how fractured Islam has become, and in fact, any place where Islam is in the majority-- or worse-- is synonymous with government, there is war strife and mayhem-- as the different "brands" of Islam fight amongst themselves...

... it's as if there isn't actually any over-arching authority that could address this internal fighting and bloodshed...

unfortunately these wars were invented by evangelical colonist Christian and Zionists. Sudan war, Kashmir War, Palestine war, Kongo. World war 1 and 2. We all hope there should be no 3d war. The rule was divide to prevail. All are lingering legacy of Colonization.

 

[Baroodi]

The same argument can be made for Islam that if it is not immune to tampering why are there so many sects of Islam.

Totally wrong. Islam as presented by Mohammed prevail in Sunni Muslim World with the same Quran revealed to Mohammed peace be upon him for the last 15 centuries. Duties are the same, All prohibited are still prohibited nothing got a licence or a verdict to legalize it.

 

[danieldemol]

Totally wrong. Islam as presented by Mohammed prevail in Sunni Muslim World with the same Quran revealed to Mohammed peace be upon him for the last 15 centuries. Duties are the same, All prohibited are still prohibited nothing got a licence or a verdict to legalize it.

The sects of Sunni Islam can’t even agree whether praying at the shrines of saints is permissible, no one is saying there is more than one Quran, but there is certainly more than one interpretation of it and you can bury your head in the sand about it all you want.

 

[Baroodi]

The sects of Sunni Islam can’t even agree whether praying at the shrines of saints is permissible, no one is saying there is more than one Quran, but there is certainly more than one interpretation of it and you can bury your head in the sand about it all you want.

Yes you are right some Sunni do invalidated acts in groups under the umbrella of Sunni Islam. But yes Quran is the same and the relics of Mohammed the Messenger are there very prestine. The infidels used to laugh at the believers at the time of the prophet by saying: Mohammed teaches his follower every thing even the way to defecate themselves. And this is true, He shows us evey thing about how to worship our lord in a clear way, those who are haunted or hexed get lured off the track.

 

[columbus]

(shrug) Perhaps someone can come up with a work around, but I don't see it, myself. I'm willing to wait and see, though.

Mormons used to be extremely racist. They were also once polygamists.
But they aren't now, in the 21st century.

Ask yourself, "How did they find a work around?".

I see it. It's easy. I believe that Mormons will also, in the relatively near future.
Tom

 

[Brickjectivity]

Mormons used to be extremely racist. They were also once polygamists.
But they aren't now, in the 21st century.

Ask yourself, "How did they find a work around?".

I see it. It's easy. I believe that Mormons will also, in the relatively near future.
Tom

Is this thread still going? Somebody shoot it.

 

[Katzpur]

Mormons used to be extremely racist. They were also once polygamists.
But they aren't now, in the 21st century.

Ask yourself, "How did they find a work around?".

I see it. It's easy. I believe that Mormons will also, in the relatively near future.
Tom

Actually, I believe that Mormons have always been less racist than members of many other Christian denominations. For instance, there has never been a period of time in the Church's history when we did not have integrated congregations (although there were admittedly not many Black members of the Church prior to 1978, at least not in the U.S.) Also, growing up in the Church, I can never recall a single instance of being taught that they were "the spawn of Satan" or any other such nonsense. While it's true that the Church's policy prohibiting Black men to hold the priesthood could accurately be described as racist, Mormons have never been encouraged to harm or harrass African-Americans, but always to treat them respectfully in their personal interactions. You won't find a lot of vitriolic talk coming from Mormons directed at Blacks, even when th ban was in place. They were clearly discriminated against in terms of their roles as members of the Church, but when you say they were "extremely racist," I can't help but think of the kind of racism that involves violence, etc. Maybe that's not what you had in mind, but that's how it came across to me.

 

[idea]

Works for me. What that tells me is that if we hold to what we truly believe to be true, and have faith that God will straighten things out if we are faithful, then...He will straighten things out. So far that seems to be working.

Have you ever changed what you believe? No one is perfect, we all have incomplete understandings - so when you get new information, beliefs change with that new information, right? It's not good to hold onto beliefs. Progression (eternal progression right - not stagnation - but progression) - Progression is a process of changing beliefs.

Example: Start out believing the earth is flat (or the earth is the center of the universe etc. as was a religious belief for many at one point)

New information is added (plotting stars, moons, study shadows, explore the ocean - not find an edge) - so new information surfaces, and what are you supposed to do with that? Should you close your eyes, hold to flat-earth beliefs?

It is not good to hold onto belief systems.

It is good to hold onto honesty. Hold onto an open mind. Hold onto curiosity.

 

[Watchmen]

Actually, I believe that Mormons have always been less racist than members of many other Christian denominations. For instance, there has never been a period of time in the Church's history when we did not have integrated congregations (although there were admittedly not many Black members of the Church prior to 1978, at least not in the U.S.) Also, growing up in the Church, I can never recall a single instance of being taught that they were "the spawn of Satan" or any other such nonsense. While it's true that the Church's policy prohibiting Black men to hold the priesthood could accurately be described as racist, Mormons have never been encouraged to harm or harrass African-Americans, but always to treat them respectfully in their personal interactions. You won't find a lot of vitriolic talk coming from Mormons directed at Blacks, even when th ban was in place. They were clearly discriminated against in terms of their roles as members of the Church, but when you say they were "extremely racist," I can't help but think of the kind of racism that involves violence, etc. Maybe that's not what you had in mind, but that's how it came across to me.

Didn’t Brigham Young say blacks were the 1/3 of spirits who accepted Christ’s plan, but not whole heartedly? Or something like that?

 

[Katzpur]

Didn’t Brigham Young say blacks were the 1/3 of spirits who accepted Christ’s plan, but not whole heartedly? Or something like that?

Someone (not Brigham Young) said something to that effect (i.e. that they were "fence sitters"). It runs in my mind that that comment was made a number of years later, by someone who was trying to justify the ban by coming up with what he felt was a possible explanation for it. Of course there really was no explanation other than racial prejudice.

 

[columbus]

Actually, I believe that Mormons have always been less racist than members of many other Christian denominations.

That's a really low bar. Back when the LDS was being formed practically all Christians in the USA were pretty racist.

But my point wasn't about that. My point was that LDS got over their racism and polygamy. Because they have a built-in work around(to use @dianaiad 's term) and I believe that they will adopt queer friendly policies sooner than most other Christian denominations.
Tom

 

[Katzpur]

That's a really low bar. Back when the LDS was being formed practically all Christians in the USA were pretty racist.

Agreed. It wasn't intended to be an excuse, but just to put our history in perspective with everybody else's.

But my point wasn't about that. My point was that LDS got over their racism and polygamy. Because they have a built-in work around(to use @dianaiad 's term) and I believe that they will adopt queer friendly policies sooner than most other Christian denominations.
Tom

Possibly. I sure hope so. Did you see this? What jumped out at me was the reaction of his classmates. These are the people who will one day be a part of the Church's leadership.

 

[columbus]

Possibly. I sure hope so. Did you see this? What jumped out at me was the reaction of his classmates. These are the people who will one day be a part of the Church's leadership.

Yes, I didn't even have to click your link to know what you are referring to.
Heh... Brigham Young


As I was saying.....
Tom

 

[Watchmen]

Someone (not Brigham Young) said something to that effect (i.e. that they were "fence sitters"). It runs in my mind that that comment was made a number of years later, by someone who was trying to justify the ban by coming up with what he felt was a possible explanation for it. Of course there really was no explanation other than racial prejudice.

Upon reflection, I think David O McKay and Joseph Fielding Smith made the comment.