LDS Church Makes 'Surprise' Change on LGBT Issues

[idea]

Yup. Just as biblical prophets overruled past prophets. But, as far as the LDS prophet overruling the Bible, do you know how many times that has actually happened over our nearly 200-year history?

All of it - from the Bible to any current religious groups - are just more evidence that we all need individual personal guidance on all of it. There are those who try to take away the free agency of others by making unreasonable demands and declarations - claiming "authority" more than another - this always has been, and always will be the case. By the end of it, hopefully everyone learns not to trust any arms of flesh, learns to be spiritually self-reliant, and finds their own voice - discovers their own authority over themselves, their individual light, their personal testimony that is not dependent on anyone or any organization on earth.

 

[idea]

They did it when I was there. I quoted matt 19:12, and Deut 56:4-5 and they said that I had incorrectly interpreted the Bible.

matt 19:12... I actually have something in common with you Ellen. I am a bit in-between genders myself... have also been under the knife for it, and because of abuse am not attracted to others as some think I should be. I think those who have chosen a celibate life - from nuns to monks, do have more resources available for devotion to God rather than to a family or spouse. There is nothing wrong with not being married, or not being one gender over another - consider that Eve in her perfect form did not have kids - getting pregnant was part of the curse. Also consider that Jesus was an only child - their one and only - and he was begotten by a handmaid NOT heavenly mother. (Heavenly Mother does not beget children.) I agree - the LDS worship of family and marriage etc. are way out of line with much of what is recorded in scriptures.

 

[Katzpur]

All of it - from the Bible to any current religious groups - are just more evidence that we all need individual personal guidance on all of it. There are those who try to take away the free agency of others by making unreasonable demands and declarations - claiming "authority" more than another - this always has been, and always will be the case. By the end of it, hopefully everyone learns not to trust any arms of flesh, learns to be spiritually self-reliant, and finds their own voice - discovers their own authority over themselves, their individual light, their personal testimony that is not dependent on anyone or any organization on earth.

I fair to see how any of this overrules the Bible. I do, however, agree that it's of utmost importance for each and every one of us to realize that our "personal testimonies are not dependent on anyone or any organization on earth." As a matter of fact, that reminds me very much of what my former bishop used to say: "Your salvation is between you and the Lord. Period. It's not between you and your bishop, you and your stake president or you and the prophet." This is something I have always believed. The only "truths" I feel compelled to accept are the one's God himself has taught me (i.e. through the Holy Ghost). If I have trouble accepting anything else man may teach, I simply don't worry about it.

 

[idea]

I fair to see how any of this overrules the Bible. I do, however, agree that it's of utmost importance for each and every one of us to realize that our "personal testimonies are not dependent on anyone or any organization on earth." As a matter of fact, that reminds me very much of what my former bishop used to say: "Your salvation is between you and the Lord. Period. It's not between you and your bishop, you and your stake president or you and the prophet." This is something I have always believed. The only "truths" I feel compelled to accept are the one's God himself has taught me (i.e. through the Holy Ghost). If I have trouble accepting anything else man may teach, I simply don't worry about it.

I guess it is just in how you read the Bible - if you read it as an example of "the correct way to react" and think everything recorded in it was the best possible scenario and how everything was supposed to happen - then you will get yourself into trouble. If you read it as a story - of one person's observations - without attaching any "right" or "wrong" to any of it.... when the prophet comes barreling in, and ends up getting stoned because he was not good at communicating or something - instead of taking it as a lesson of "wow - I want to be like that prophet - what dedication" - if instead you say "wow - that prophet really messed up - that is NOT how you go about teaching or converting anyone - God was right to allow him to be stoned and taken away like that" - those are two very different ways to read the same scriptures.

It gives me hope when I see posts from people like you Katz - a whole spectrum of beliefs and people within all religious organizations which is healthy, and good.

Have to run, read ya' all later.

 

[Ellen Brown]

It is a manipulative power-play that quite a few religious organizations use unfortunately.

Spiritual self-reliance is so important for everyone. No borrowed light, no middle-men - we all have a conscience and a direct line to God. Everything we have, are, and do is between us and God. I'm in a mixed faith family which is a delicate thing to balance - the kids all know they define their own worthiness - not some old guy. They have their own authority over their thoughts, beliefs, and body - not some old guy. There are good things in the church - friends, parables, so long as you keep everything in perspective - just like you can go to college and not agree with administrators, you can go to church and not agree with the bishop etc.

In my own case, I'd have stayed with the church because the Members are so loving and supportive. I have PTSD and a thing they regularly do in Sacrament triggers it, and it got to be too much. It was leave or suicide. The constant implication that those who do not have a TR are doing something wrong is just evil. The members are conditioned to put up with that. I was not.

 

[idea]

In my own case, I'd have stayed with the church because the Members are so loving and supportive. I have PTSD and a thing they regularly do in Sacrament triggers it, and it got to be too much. It was leave or suicide. The constant implication that those who do not have a TR are doing something wrong is just evil. The members are conditioned to put up with that. I was not.

I go to support family and know what you mean with things that are triggering - I have learned to redefine quite a few things, so that when topics like "temple" come up, in my mind - it is not the LDS temple, it is any holy place where spirituality is felt. For me - nature is my temple, going outside, going for a run (you really can "run" away from your problems - great endorphins etc.) I also retreat into my kindle books when needed, or just hang out in the foyer. I will not let myself get labeled as the "black sheep" who will not go, and am also there to make sure no one is pulling my kids aside to bless them etc. I guess I am a little more forward - I do comment in class and have learned who else in the ward agrees with me There is a role for everyone in any community - I will take up the laid-back, honest, - just fun, low-key, realistic person in the group. The non-literal secular participant there to keep things interesting and stirred up just a little. It really is like a school or work - you don't have to agree with everyone, you don't have to feel bad if you are not a 4.0 student - be the change you want to see, be the person you want others to be too - you never know who else in there needs someone who is likeminded in there too to take things down a notch

 

[Ellen Brown]

Sorry, Ellen, you lost me there. You're going to have to be more specific.

I thought that we had talked about this before? I never felt "right" gender wise, but was forced to live as a male. Much later in life, I found I am Intersex and researchers are finding new things about that every day. I recently heard, though it is not verified, that perhaps certain intersex folk are failed twins and some actually have two different genomes! This is new to me...

So, the family story is that when I was born, the Doctor took me and went into another room. Who knows what he did? I heard that after my birth there was an extended stay in the Hospital. The theory that I have heard repeatedly is that I had both sets of sex organs and he took the female ones out. He did not know that my nature prefered to be female. In 1947 this sort of thing was protocol and there were no records of the surgery. Later in life I went to San Diego to see what I could find and that hospital had been torn down and long forgotten.

In life, I was never "Manly" enough and lots of people thought I was Homosexual. I never was, and it is hard to describe the unkindness and prejudice I encountered in life. Later, the LGBT folk got their hands on me and decided I was transexual. With severe PTSD, the counselor got me on heavy prescription experimental Psychological Medications that made me very suggestible. They decided I needed surgery to correct that and I got it. In truth it didn't solve a thing. I should have just suicided.

The GA says that my gender change was voluntary, but it wasn't, either time. Matt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

AND Isaiah 56:4-5
4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Even faced with these scriptures, the GA "sleazed" their way through it and chose to reject the truth. I'm 72 and the clock is about up. My conscience is clear. I have tried to serve the Creator as faithfully as I could. I trust Him.

 

[Ellen Brown]

matt 19:12... I actually have something in common with you Ellen. I am a bit in-between genders myself... have also been under the knife for it, and because of abuse am not attracted to others as some think I should be. I think those who have chosen a celibate life - from nuns to monks, do have more resources available for devotion to God rather than to a family or spouse. There is nothing wrong with not being married, or not being one gender over another - consider that Eve in her perfect form did not have kids - getting pregnant was part of the curse. Also consider that Jesus was an only child - their one and only - and he was begotten by a handmaid NOT heavenly mother. (Heavenly Mother does not beget children.) I agree - the LDS worship of family and marriage etc. are way out of line with much of what is recorded in scriptures.

You understand more than I thought. I wish we had met before...

 

[Katzpur]

I thought that we had talked about this before? I never felt "right" gender wise, but was forced to live as a male. Much later in life, I found I am Intersex and researchers are finding new things about that every day. I recently heard, though it is not verified, that perhaps certain intersex folk are failed twins and some actually have two different genomes! This is new to me...

So, the family story is that when I was born, the Doctor took me and went into another room. Who knows what he did? I heard that after my birth there was an extended stay in the Hospital. The theory that I have heard repeatedly is that I had both sets of sex organs and he took the female ones out. He did not know that my nature prefered to be female. In 1947 this sort of thing was protocol and there were no records of the surgery. Later in life I went to San Diego to see what I could find and that hospital had been torn down and long forgotten.

In life, I was never "Manly" enough and lots of people thought I was Homosexual. I never was, and it is hard to describe the unkindness and prejudice I encountered in life. Later, the LGBT folk got their hands on me and decided I was transexual. With severe PTSD, the counselor got me on heavy prescription experimental Psychological Medications that made me very suggestible. They decided I needed surgery to correct that and I got it. In truth it didn't solve a thing. I should have just suicided.

The GA says that my gender change was voluntary, but it wasn't, either time. Matt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

AND Isaiah 56:4-5
4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Even faced with these scriptures, the GA "sleazed" their way through it and chose to reject the truth. I'm 72 and the clock is about up. My conscience is clear. I have tried to serve the Creator as faithfully as I could. I trust Him.

Yes, we have talked about it. I just wasn't sure what, specifically, you were talking about in your previous post. Honestly, all I can say is that I totally sympathize with you in how you were treated, and if I'd been treated the same way, I'd feel exactly the same way you do. When you said they'd "overruled the Bible," I figured it was just a matter of a difference of opinion as to how those verses should be interpreted, but I've got to say that I don't really think they could be interpreted much differently than you have. Human beings are just not always what they should be. I'm sorry. Oh, and about your conscience being clear... I'm glad to hear that. It should be clear. You've done nothing wrong.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yes, we have talked about it. I just wasn't sure what, specifically, you were talking about in your previous post. Honestly, all I can say is that I totally sympathize with you in how you were treated, and if I'd been treated the same way, I'd feel exactly the same way you do. When you said they'd "overruled the Bible," I figured it was just a matter of a difference of opinion as to how those verses should be interpreted, but I've got to say that I don't really think they could be interpreted much differently than you have. Human beings are just not always what they should be. I'm sorry. Oh, and about your conscience being clear... I'm glad to hear that. It should be clear. You've done nothing wrong.

Thank you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

More reason to ask why cling onto something you have to keep updating and changing because the core values are inherently and fundamentally incompatible with today's knowledge and society. Why not just let it go and replace it with something that doesn't have all the baggage and negativity?

 

[Ellen Brown]

matt 19:12... I actually have something in common with you Ellen. I am a bit in-between genders myself... have also been under the knife for it, and because of abuse am not attracted to others as some think I should be. I think those who have chosen a celibate life - from nuns to monks, do have more resources available for devotion to God rather than to a family or spouse. There is nothing wrong with not being married, or not being one gender over another - consider that Eve in her perfect form did not have kids - getting pregnant was part of the curse. Also consider that Jesus was an only child - their one and only - and he was begotten by a handmaid NOT heavenly mother. (Heavenly Mother does not beget children.) I agree - the LDS worship of family and marriage etc. are way out of line with much of what is recorded in scriptures.

Yes, and the GA beats the drum to have lots of children.

I was married 38 years... After that is an ugly painful story. I'm Celibate now and have been for 15 years. You are right, it is much simpler to be devoted to God without all the entanglements. Jesus spoke about that. I hope that we talk more.

 

[Prestor John]

It is not clear when apostles are speaking from revelation, and when they are not.

Sure it is.

Acts 15 records a perfect example that is comparable to what we are discussing.

The Lord Jesus Christ had originally told His disciples to not teach the Gentiles, but after His Resurrection He commanded them to go and teach and baptize the Gentiles.

These supposedly opposing commandments caused controversy in the original Church of Jesus Christ.

Acts 15 describes how the Apostles dealt with that issue.

 

[Prestor John]

Hmmm. I can and do.

You are free to believe that, but I believe that history and doctrine are both on my side of this issue.

 

[Katzpur]

You are free to believe that, but I believe that history and doctrine are both on my side of this issue.

I know you do, and I know I'm not going to change your mind. You're not going to change mine either. The only reason I even commented was that your statement (i.e. "I don't see how anyone could view these policy changes as an admittance of any "past mistake" and I do not believe the previous policies were made in error.") was such a broad declaration that I just couldn't help but point that out! Many, many, many active members in the Church do not see the situation as you do, and it sounded like you were simply incredulous to think that this could be the case.

 

[Prestor John]

I know you do, and I know I'm not going to change your mind. You're not going to change mine either.

I understand, even though I still don't personally see anything supporting your position.

We have already had that kind of discussion when we talked about black people and the Priesthood ban.

For anyone who is interested in seeing that discussion go here:

LDS (Mormon) Only: Blacks, the Priesthood and the Seed of Cain

The only reason I even commented was that your statement (i.e. "I don't see how anyone could view these policy changes as an admittance of any "past mistake" and I do not believe the previous policies were made in error.") was such a broad declaration that I just couldn't help but point that out!

It was not so much a "declaration" as it was me sharing the opinion I formed based on the evidence given.

According to what has been done and said by the Brethren in regards to this issue, I don't see how anyone could view the new policies as an admittance of any "past mistake".

The Brethren never claimed that the past policies were given in error or that the new policies were corrections to the previously given ones.

Not only this, but none of these policies, past or present, contradict canonized scripture or established revelation.

Me stating that "I don't see" how someone could come to that conclusion is not the same as saying "It is not possible" to come to that conclusion.

One is the sharing of opinion while the other is a statement of fact.

People can agree with you as much as they want. I would just not be able to agree with them because I do not see any evidence supporting that conclusion.

Many, many, many active members in the Church do not see the situation as you do, and it sounded like you were simply incredulous to think that this could be the case.

Truth is not established by a consensus. At least, not by those who lack the authority.

I do find it hard to believe that any faithful member of the Church would conclude that the Brethren had made a mistake.

You would have to flat out ignore various scriptures, both ancient and modern, in order to come to that conclusion.

Most of my arguments can be found in the link I posted above.

From my perspective, it sounds like any member that would conclude that the Brethren made such a mistake would essentially be saying, "I believe that these men have the power and authority to speak and act in the name of God, as long as I agree with it."

We may not always agree with what the Lord commands His Church to do, but, in my opinion, that proves that we lack something, not that the men who were called and chosen to lead His Church in these last times made any error.

 

[idea]

We may not always agree with what the Lord commands His Church to do, but, in my opinion, that proves that we lack something, not that the men who were called and chosen to lead His Church in these last times made any error.

So, you believe church leaders to be infallible?

 

[Prestor John]

So, you believe church leaders to be infallible?

No. Not at all.

The link I posted gets more into that sort of stuff.

 

[Katzpur]

No. Not at all.

The link I posted gets more into that sort of stuff.

Can you name a single instance of where they made a policy decision you believe was a mistake?

 

[Prestor John]

Can you name a single instance of where they made a policy decision you believe was a mistake?

Not off the top of my head.

I think I told you before that initially I was troubled by the policy to not baptize the children of same-sex couples.

However, like with all other things I don't agree with or understand, I pondered on it and sought comfort in the scriptures.

Understanding and acceptance eventually came.

I believe that trying to view these kinds of things from God's perspective, rather than only from our own, helped me.

I'd be willing to consider any other policies you'd like to mention.

Other than the Priesthood ban and the past policies about same-sex marriage, what others do you take issue with?