LDS, JW, SDA, other?

[lombas]

Yeah, I figured you were thinking in terms of past European history...

Just had to add that in case you thought any different of us...

I understand.

I've also seen the light show in the plaza, but not the Christmas one..

Here it is, just looking at this now...


Complete light show at Grand Place - Brussels, Belgium

Cool. I only visit Brussels a couple times a year, so I don't get a chance to "tourist" my way through the city.

 

[doppelganger]

If you believe that the true Church was at one time lost,

Who says the "true Church" was ever even found?

 

[may]

so what is a church ?
The Greek word ek·kle·si´a, which is translated "church" or "congregation" in the Bible, literally means "that which is called out." It refers to a group of persons called out from among others for a particular purpose; but it is used as the equivalent of the Hebrew word qahal´, meaning "congregation" or "assembly."

 

[painted wolf]

yes, I was talking about those guys who hung out with Jesus. Mathew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul... but what about the others?

wa:do
and ps, girls can be wolves too.

 

[Super Universe]

Jesus did not found a church but Paul did.

And Joseph Smith.

And so did Charles Taze Russell.

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus told Peter, "And upon this rock I will build my Church." Unless He didn't do what I said He was going to do, He did in fact establish His Church.

 

[doppelganger]

Jesus told Peter, "And upon this rock I will build my Church." Unless He didn't do what I said He was going to do, He did in fact establish His Church.

Or unless that was just part of a story written after there already was something calling itself the Church.:rainbow1:

 

[Super Universe]

Jesus told Peter, "And upon this rock I will build my Church." Unless He didn't do what I said He was going to do, He did in fact establish His Church.

But what was built upon that rock? Nothing that Jesus built and nothing that Paul, Joseph Smith, or Charles Russell built.

Did Jesus also say "My church will fight other church's, molest children, discriminate against women, promote hatred, promote the idea of an angry and jealous God, judge others, and fight against free will?"

 

[Ronald]

Tabernacle of the congregation/Temple of the Congregation/ Dem Moed is not an equal to Church, Assembly(Called out group) is an equal to ekklhsia/church.
The church building is for the congregation/gathering of the assembly/ekklhsia.
The Messiah's church was called the Way. After the statement "I am the way, the truth and the light."

 

[Katzpur]

Or unless that was just part of a story written after there already was something calling itself the Church.:rainbow1:

Sure, that's always a possibility, but I figure that if I'm going to believe the Bible is the word of God, it would be pointless for me to reject what were supposedly Christ's own words. If I'm going to do that, I might as well reject everything else He supposedly said, therefore rejecting the message of His Gospel. Having rejected Christianity, I would have a lot of new avenues open to me. I'm just not willing to do that.

 

[Katzpur]

But what was built upon that rock? Nothing that Jesus built and nothing that Paul, Joseph Smith, or Charles Russell built.

Jesus said He was going to build His Church upon the rock, and from the context in which He stated it, the rock is clearly the rock of revelation, by which Peter alone had come to the realization that He was the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Did Jesus also say "My church will fight other church's, molest children, discriminate against women, promote hatred, promote the idea of an angry and jealous God, judge others, and fight against free will?"

No, I don't believe so. Everything He taught was contrary to what you are implying He said, and everything His Church teaches today is contrary to those things.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

so what is a church ?
The Greek word ek·kle·si´a, which is translated "church" or "congregation" in the Bible, literally means "that which is called out." It refers to a group of persons called out from among others for a particular purpose; but it is used as the equivalent of the Hebrew word qahal´, meaning "congregation" or "assembly."

I was hoping a Jehovah's Witness would post! So now tell us why the Jehovah's Witnesses fit the bill as the restoration of Christ's Church over and against the LDS, SDA, etc etc

 

[Katzpur]

I don't believe that there ever was a "great apostacy".

I know you don't, Dawn, but in the OP, FerventGodSeeker was assuming (just for the sake of discussion) that there was one and that there had also been a restoration. He was just asking that members of the various churches that claim to be the restored Church to explain why they believe it to be their church. We've had a number of discussions here on RF on the Apostasy, but none on the Restoration, so I'm really not interested in taking this one off in another direction (although I'm sure it will end up that way eventually).

The foundation isn't the church, though, in my opinion.

No, the foundation isn't "the Church," and I've never said it was. Christ said His Church was built on the foundation of prophets and apostles, so that's what I believe.

The foundation is Christ.

Christ said He is the cornerstone of His Church. That's what I believe, too.

And Christ is found within each of us. My foundation can't crumble. Take away every church...every "religion"...and we still have Christ.

Of course we still have Christ. Christians have had Christ since the beginning, but that's still not the same thing as the Church He founded.

I just don't believe that Christ placed any more emphasis on the authority of the church than he did on the authority that each believer posesses. And I can provide scripture that tells us that the believer has authority.

I know you can, but I can provide several others that say that's not the case. If Christ established His Church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles, and Paul said that's how He intended it to function, I'm afraid I'm just not comfortable disagreeing with them.

 

[jonny]

If you believe that the true Church was at one time lost, that there was a great Apostasy in the early Church etc, what modern-day church do you believe to be the true Church founded by Jesus Christ? Is it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, the Church of Christ, or some other group? What evidence (Scriptural and non-Scriptural if you have it) do you have that supports your belief?

Is this serious? Why on earth wouldn't someone say that their church wasn't "it." This discussion is absolutely pointless.

The Doctrine and Covenants is scriptural proof that supports my belief. Read it and tell me otherwise.

 

[Katzpur]

Is this serious? Why on earth wouldn't someone say that their church wasn't "it." This discussion is absolutely pointless.

I disagree, jonny. Like Dawny, most Protestants (from Pentacostals to Baptists to Lutherans, etc.) don't believe that the differences between the doctrines taught by the various Churches are significant enough for anyone to worry about. Since they believe in the "priesthood of all believers," they don't see the need for the authority of the Priesthood. I think that's why most LDS who have done much studying on the subject believe that there are really only two or three possible choices in terms of which Church is the one Christ founded -- the Roman Catholic Church, (possibly the Eastern Orthdox Church) and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If Jesus didn't actually establish a visible Church, and if all believers have the same authority, and if the ordinances of the Church are not essential after all, then what difference would it make which denomination a person affiliated with?

I, too, would like to hear May's input on why she believes the JW's are the restored Church Christ established during His ministry.

 

[doppelganger]

If I'm going to do that, I might as well reject everything else He supposedly said, therefore rejecting the message of His Gospel.

How does that follow? Just because it doesn't has authoritative force it must be rejected as untrue?!

 

[jonny]

I may have misread the opening post, but isn't the purpose of this for us to say which of our church's is the true church? Why would a Latter-day Saint who believed in the church say anything other than "Latter-day Saint."

That's why I find the discussion pointless.

 

[Katzpur]

How does that follow? Just because it doesn't has authoritative force it must be rejected as untrue?!

You lost me. Jesus said He was going to establish a Church -- or so the scriptures tell us. You're saying, maybe He didn't say that at all. Maybe someone just made it up after the fact. If that's the case, which things that He supposedly said am I supposed to be able to believe and which things am I supposed to assume were somebody else's opinions of what He might have said?

 

[Katzpur]

I may have misread the opening post, but isn't the purpose of this for us to say which of our church's is the true church? Why would a Latter-day Saint who believed in the church say anything other than "Latter-day Saint."

That's why I find the discussion pointless.

The OP was directed to people who believe an apostasy and a restoration had both taken place and that their church was the restored Church of Jesus Christ. So all Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians would automatically be excluded from answering since they don't believe in the Apostasy in the first place. Protestants would pretty much be excluded since they see if Apostasy (if, in fact, it even happened) as an insignificant detail since Christ's Church was really just an invisible Church and authority is held but all believers. He wanted the opinions of Restorationists like us, the JW's and the SDA's. The whole point was to determine which "restored Church" is the restoration of the original Church Christ established.

 

[jonny]

The OP was directed to people who believe an apostasy and a restoration had both taken place and that their church was the restored Church of Jesus Christ. So all Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians would automatically be excluded from answering since they don't believe in the Apostasy in the first place. Protestants would pretty much be excluded since they see if Apostasy (if, in fact, it even happened) as an insignificant detail since Christ's Church was really just an invisible Church and authority is held but all believers. He wanted the opinions of Restorationists like us, the JW's and the SDA's. The whole point was to determine which "restored Church" is the restoration of the original Church Christ established.

Gotcha. I thought that it was supposed to be a discussion between the LDS, JW, and SDA.