LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Katzpur]

. Do you think ordaining a few men justifies the years of racial abuse?

How about you try clicking on page one of this thread, re-reading the OP, and seeing if you can wrap that little hummingbird brain of yours around the topic we're trying to discuss instead of trying to hijack the thread.

 

[madhatter85]

Because they know if they push those lawsuits, it will hurt the chances of legalizing it in the rest of the states.

Exactly, it is a ploy :yes:

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Agreed, but am I coming off as extreme?

No.

Yes, but are you denying the probability that a minority will start lawsuits over it?

You mean lawsuits to force churches to perform same-sex marriages? It's conceivable that in our nation of over 300 million people, anything could happen. For example, it could be true, hypothetically, that a few sinister Negros thought they could take unfair advantage of the Civil Rights Act, and sued the LDS Church in order to force them to fully desegregate worship and participation. Perhaps no such lawsuits occurred, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were one or two cases. However, I am confident that all one or two of these possible cases were quickly thrown out and the LDS Church did not suffer any harm at all from the Civil Rights Act. And I am also confident that the danger posed by these "extreme" Negros was far, far outweighed by the importance of equality and civil rights for all Americans. And the same is true of hypothetical gay lawsuits against churches. It's a convenient boogeyman used to justify prejudice.

 

[happyhummingbird]

. You may not like it, but that's how it is.

Officially that is how it is, but you and I both know that isn't what is practiced around the world. It is interesting how Mormons will say this or that is that "official" doctrine, but they know and see what goes on around them, but chose to stick their heads in the sand.

This is so far off topic that it doesn't even deserve an answer.

Another cop-out. You claim off-topic or isn't relevant or doesn't pertain to 'these latter days'. Whatever the reason, it's a cop-out.

]Doctrines never change.

And polygamy was just a policy and procedure then? Denying blacks the priesthood was just a policy and procedure? Working hard to make sure the Equal Rights Amendment and Prop 8 was just a policy and procedure?

Even if they are just 'policies and procedures,' why on EARTH would anyone want to be part of a church that has those as policies and procedures?

You evidently don't make a distinction. That's unfortunate but not surprising.

Insult the person so you don't actually have to address what is at hand.

The Church leadership has made a lot of mistakes over the past 181 years,

You openly admit you stay with a church that makes mistakes (and BIG ones at that)?

 

[dallas1125]

You mean lawsuits to force churches to perform same-sex marriages? It's conceivable that in our nation of over 300 million people, anything could happen. For example, it could be true, hypothetically, that a few sinister Negros thought they could take unfair advantage of the Civil Rights Act, and sued the LDS Church in order to force them to fully desegregate worship and participation. Perhaps no such lawsuits occurred, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were one or two cases. However, I am confident that all one or two of these possible cases were quickly thrown out and the LDS Church did not suffer any harm at all from the Civil Rights Act. And I am also confident that the danger posed by these "extreme" Negros was far, far outweighed by the importance of equality and civil rights for all Americans. And the same is true of hypothetical gay lawsuits against churches. It's a convenient boogeyman used to justify prejudice.

I dont see a parralel at all between the segregation and homosexuality.

Either way, the reasoning can be used to justify prejudice. Im using the fact that lawsuits might happen and trying to limit the damage that can be done.

 

[happyhummingbird]

How about you try clicking on page one of this thread, re-reading the OP, and seeing if you can wrap that little hummingbird brain of yours around the topic we're trying to discuss instead of trying to hijack the thread.

Insults abound! Yay! If one can't answer the question/subject they just insult the other person. Not too surprising though.

 

[Katzpur]

You mean lawsuits to force churches to perform same-sex marriages? It's conceivable that in our nation of over 300 million people, anything could happen. For example, it could be true, hypothetically, that a few sinister Negros thought they could take unfair advantage of the Civil Rights Act, and sued the LDS Church in order to force them to fully desegregate worship and participation. Perhaps no such lawsuits occurred, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were one or two cases. However, I am confident that all one or two of these possible cases were quickly thrown out and the LDS Church did not suffer any harm at all from the Civil Rights Act. And I am also confident that the danger posed by these "extreme" Negros was far, far outweighed by the importance of equality and civil rights for all Americans. And the same is true of hypothetical gay lawsuits against churches. It's a convenient boogeyman used to justify prejudice.

Civil Rights are different from religious rights, though, and I think we can all agree on that. Many churches, including the LDS Church and the Roman Catholic Church, refuse to ordain women. That's a religious issue, and it's not one governments typically involve themselves with. Civil rights, on the other hand, should be guaranteed to all people, regardless of race, gender, etc.

 

[happyhummingbird]

Exactly, it is a ploy :yes:

Yes, because the evil GBLT's are out to get you. Mwhahahahahaha.

Really? You do know how conspiracy theory that sounds, right?

 

[dallas1125]

Officially that is how it is, but you and I both know that isn't what is practiced around the world. It is interesting how Mormons will say this or that is that "official" doctrine, but they know and see what goes on around them, but chose to stick their heads in the sand.

Yeah, cause those sunday school teachers sure now what they are talking about!

Another cop-out. You claim off-topic or isn't relevant or doesn't pertain to 'these latter days'. Whatever the reason, it's a cop-out.

Do you have something against a new thread? Forum rules are against hijacking a thread.

And polygamy was just a policy and procedure then? Denying blacks the priesthood was just a policy and procedure? Working hard to make sure the Equal Rights Amendment and Prop 8 was just a policy and procedure?

None of these are related in any way to each other except for polygamy and homosexuality to an extent.

You openly admit you stay with a church that makes mistakes (and BIG ones at that)?

The church leaders arent gods...

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Civil Rights are different from religious rights, though, and I think we can all agree on that. Many churches, including the LDS Church and the Roman Catholic Church, refuse to ordain women. That's a religious issue, and it's not one governments typically involve themselves with. Civil rights, on the other hand, should be guaranteed to all people, regardless of race, gender, etc.

I totally agree. I'm not aware of one gay-marriage law on the ballot that infringed on anyone's religious rights. Remarkably, the LDS Church and the RCC are not burdened by women suing them for not ordaining females. Why would a different outcome be expected if LGBT people are equal under the law?

 

[dallas1125]

Yes, because the evil GBLT's are out to get you. Mwhahahahahaha.

Really? You do know how conspiracy theory that sounds, right?

You really believe that there will be no lawsuits?

 

[madhatter85]

Essentially the same arguments were used, successfully, to rally LDS opposition to desegregation and the civil rights movement. See above.

Shame on you!

the only opposition the church had against the civil rights movement was the wording used in the laws proposed. And then it had to do with the same topic we are discussing now. you think the proposition 8 thing was the first time we have moved to block the acceptance of same-sex marriages? absurd.

In Utah, the attack against ERA began when the amendment was first considered by the Utah legislature in 1973. The same fears of anti-ERA opponents prompted Mormon Church leaders to join their financial resources, promotional skills and broad network of members to the anti-ERA movement. In 1976, church leaders described ERA as "a moral issue with many disturbing ramifications for women and for the family as individual members as a whole." President Spencer Kimball declared it "would strike at the family, humankind's basic institution."

source

 

[madhatter85]

I dont see a parralel at all between the segregation and homosexuality.

Either way, the reasoning can be used to justify prejudice. Im using the fact that lawsuits might happen and trying to limit the damage that can be done.

To see the gay community compare thier condition to blacks is absolutely absurd.

even to compare homosexuality to race is ridiculous. homosexuals are not a "people", "ethnicity", or "race". If they were one of those things they would have a regional origin and very likely have been decimated ages ago by natural selection (due to low mating success).

 

[Katzpur]

Officially that is how it is, but you and I both know that isn't what is practiced around the world. It is interesting how Mormons will say this or that is that "official" doctrine, but they know and see what goes on around them, but chose to stick their heads in the sand.

Officially and in practice, it's the same. Doctrine is doctrine.

Another cop-out. You claim off-topic or isn't relevant or doesn't pertain to 'these latter days'. Whatever the reason, it's a cop-out.

It's a cop-out to stick to the topic of the OP now?

And polygamy was just a policy and procedure then?

No. Plural marriage is a doctrine. It is a doctrine that is eternal, even though it is current not being practiced.

Denying blacks the priesthood was just a policy and procedure?

Yes.

Working hard to make sure the Equal Rights Amendment and Prop 8 was just a policy and procedure?

Yes.

Even if they are just 'policies and procedures,' why on EARTH would anyone want to be part of a church that has those as policies and procedures?

I'm a member of the Church because (1) I believe its "doctrines" are true, (2) because it does a tremendous amount of good in the world, and (3) because my life is better than it would be otherwise. Now calm down and try to understand that as long as you live, there are people who will not see eye to eye with you on things. If you can learn to deal with that without getting all worked up over it, you'll be a lot happier.

Insult the person so you don't actually have to address what is at hand.

There is absolutely no reason for me to address an off-topic comment.

You openly admit you stay with a church that makes mistakes (and BIG ones at that)?

I do.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Either way, the reasoning can be used to justify prejudice. Im using the fact that lawsuits might happen and trying to limit the damage that can be done.

I'm not really sure what that means. Does this mean you will vote against a law that makes same-sex marriage legal?

 

[darkendless]

To see the gay community compare thier condition to blacks is absolutely absurd.

Your church are the ones trying to deny them rights so they have to be called something.

I know, "religiously targeted people who have less rights then normal people because unfortunately, some people have no compassion for their fellow men and are shameful individuals consumed by their sense of self importance." Might need an acronym for that one.

even to compare homosexuality to race is ridiculous. homosexuals are not a "people", "ethnicity", or "race". If they were one of those things they would have a regional origin and very likely have been decimated ages ago by natural selection (due to low mating success).

Homosexuals are just people but you're the one not treating them like people. What i want to know is why you put so much effort into causing them pain? Do you sleep well at night advocating denying others the same rights you enjoy?

 

[Katzpur]

I totally agree. I'm not aware of one gay-marriage law on the ballot that infringed on anyone's religious rights. Remarkably, the LDS Church and the RCC are not burdened by women suing them for not ordaining females. Why would a different outcome be expected if LGBT people are equal under the law?

I don't think it would. Interestingly, another reason we can't really compare civil rights to religious rights is that people are free to choose their religions; they can't choose their race or gender. If, for instance, a Mormon woman or a Catholic woman was upset that she couldn't hold the priesthood, she could simply find a church where she could be ordained. Problem solved.

 

[madhatter85]

Your church are the ones trying to deny them rights so they have to be called something.

I know, "religiously targeted people who have less rights then normal people because unfortunately, some people have no compassion for their fellow men and are shameful individuals consumed by their sense of self importance." Might need an acronym for that one.



Homosexuals are just people but you're the one not treating them like people. What i want to know is why you put so much effort into causing them pain? Do you sleep well at night advocating denying others the same rights you enjoy?

They enjoy the same rights and privileges already. I was able to marry the woman of my dreams, just like every other male over 18 in the country who is mentally able to make choices for themselves. the same goes for my wife and every other female in this country.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

the only opposition the church had against the civil rights movement was the wording used in the laws proposed. And then it had to do with the same topic we are discussing now. you think the proposition 8 thing was the first time we have moved to block the acceptance of same-sex marriages? absurd.

No, sadly I do not think it is the first time the LDS Church, or its leaders, or its followers, have stood against equality.

To see the gay community compare thier condition to blacks is absolutely absurd.

I'm not comparing gays and blacks per se, but rather I am comparing the lies and paranoia, which were used to justify opposing civil rights for gays and blacks. The Civil Rights movement wasn't about equality for blacks, it was really about blacks trying to intermarry with whites! And today, gay marriage isn't about equality for LGBT people, it's about trying to force churches to perform same-sex marriages!

Our grandchildren will be embarrassed by these nonsensical, prejudiced statements, just as we are embarrassed today by the prejudiced statements of those who once dreaded black equality and feared racial intermarriage.

 

[dallas1125]

I'm not really sure what that means. Does this mean you will vote against a law that makes same-sex marriage legal?

No, Ill vote for it. What I meant was that I think there should be something in it that gives churches the freedom to marry whomever they want.