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LDS letter on same-sex marriage

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Let me see if I can explain my position. I feel that certain things are "wrong" in God's eyes, but I recognize that many people don't believe in God at all, and that while others may believe in Him, they would not necessarily believe as I do about what He considers "wrong."

Perhaps they believe in different gods? Remember the people crashing planes into the World Trade Center?

They Agreed with you... Homosexuality is wrong... it perhaps might even be the reason they did what they did...

Your god is just a thought process... at some point you have to acknowledge your religious view you use as a way of life is your opinion with no empirical proof. Sure you have some evidence and perhaps that evidence is enough for you to defend your position with words but there are others who defend their position with crashing planes into buildings.

Clearly convincing me of how certain you are of your beliefs is not substitute for logically and reasonably proving your point of view.

If you can not logically and reasonably do so you are still free to maintain your beliefs in america. That is why we can have mormons, atheists, wiccans and Gaiaists all together. Witches and mormons might live on the same street and while the mormons might come by occasionally to preach the good word they wont actually murder the wiccans or say they can't marry.

Mormons will however say Women should Not marry women and Men not men because its immoral. Immoral how? Well we believe X and your Y does not compute with our X...

Great... Well your X was what people thought in days now gone. In modern times our ideas transcend your ridiculous and ancient moral code.

Oh...

Well we still think X is right.

But clearly X is wrong.

Ahh well god Appeared and said X is now good so we are on board with Y.

Sigh.

Since we are a society of people whose beliefs about God vary enormously, I don't think we are in a position to try to impose our beliefs about what we may think God sees as "wrong" on those who don't share our opinions. We legislate against murder, theft, rape and arson because we all (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people in our society) agree that they are harmful to an innocent party. We enact laws to protect ourselves from people whose behaviors would harm us, our loved ones, or our property. It's not that we do this because we don't think God approves of those things. We just want to be safe and know that offenders will be punished. Does that make sense?

Yes it does. But Can I translate?

Outside of our own personal beliefs and thoughts we all have to live as Americans. American's have a secular justice and secular way that transcends Satanists who are american, catholics who are american, wiccans who are american and Mormons who are also american.

It transcends individual religious views and says you are free to believe what you want but you can still not violate these secular rules.

Some religious people say to hell with that and are very vocal on the forums while others gun Dr Tiller down in church or crash planes into buildings.

Do you get my point?

Beyond as a nation... As a world... we need to forget the afterlife hooey and concentrate on making the current life moral... If afterlife beliefs do not interfere with real life morality then great... but if they result instead in priests raping kids, planes crashing into buildings, People being stoned to death and people rallying to say gay people should not have the same rights as straight people then we need to address that.

IMHO.

At the end of the day XyZ religion may say ABC is immoral and YTC religion may say ABC is moral but we need to have a right answer and neither YTC or XyZ is going to necessarily have the right answer. Hence Reason, Logic and science and if a religion thinks that they can transcend reason, logic and science by just being really fanatic and really supporting their view since they do not intend to hurt anyone but instead just want to support their logic they need to realize that others may feed into that and not be so peaceful... Thus how not guilty are they?

TLDR: Any religion may consider X moral or immoral, a non religious and unbaised answer is more desirable and more accurate then any particular religious view.
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I am talking about two different things. homosexual behavior and same-sex marriage. in my statement's proper context they are not contradictions at all.

as for your questions

because it would be sanctified by the state


because it would be sanctified by the state

States aren't in the business of sanctifying things, churches are. States can only legalize things.
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
Agreed didact. Sanctification is a religious process and as there is a seperation of church and state the state has no such right.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I believe he meant "sanctioned." (I just finished watching some old Archie Bunker reruns, so this inaccurate choice of words just cracked me up. Remember how ol' Archie did that all the time?)
Vaguely... I was never really that big a fan of the show. :eek:

LDS doesnt approve of same sex marriage? really? I am shocked
(please not the high level of sarcasm contained in the message above)
Can a group that doesnt allow soda be expected to allow gay marriage?
Can a group that makes a distinction between their own rules and governmental law when it comes to "soda"* be expected to make this distinction on gay marriage?


*BTW - I don't think you're right on this, but I see how it's probably a distorted version of something else.
Honestly I do not understand why you want to misconstrue this... Mormons think caffeine is bad. Its not soda... decaf coke is fine... ginger beer is fine... Jolt is like what? The Devil's brew?
Is it caffeine? I thought it was coffee and tea specifically.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
And I completely understand your position. I just see it as degrading our society even more than it already is.

That's cool. I see Mormonism as degrading our society, so I guess I'll get working on an amendment to ban the religion altogether. That's fine with you, right?

I guess if you want the Lord to come sooner rather than later II could see arguing for allowing same-sex marriages. But I don't want that to happen yet. People need time to prepare.

It's pretty sad that you actually think allowing others the right to do what they please as long as they're not harming anyone would bring about Judgement Day. Actually, scratch that. It's extremely sad.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I am not persecuting homosexuals.

Yes, you are. You're refusing them the same rights you have. That's persecution, unless you're twisting the definition of persecution so that it doesn't fit in this case.

I am simply refusing to acknowledge their behavior as a societal norm and refusing to vote to legalize it.

No, you're refusing to vote to legalize their right to marriage. That's discrimination and persecution, although I realize you can't think of it in those terms, or else you would hopefully not get much sleep.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
because it would be sanctified by the state


because it would be sanctified by the state

Nothing is sanctified by the state. Sanctity and sanctifying are religious terms, not political ones. This is why I explained to you earlier (which you're obviously choosing to ignore) that "sanctity" has no business in a discussion about legal contracts. Please at least try to understand the situation. I know it's tough for you.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Yes, you are. You're refusing them the same rights you have. That's persecution, unless you're twisting the definition of persecution so that it doesn't fit in this case.

No, you're refusing to vote to legalize their right to marriage.

They already have that right. they are trying to redefine it based on their desire to behave contrary to the intended purpose of marriage :rolleyes:
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Is it caffeine? I thought it was coffee and tea specifically.

Yes. You are correct:
The Word of Wisdom, Caffeine, and Hypocrisy

I know a few mormons though who will drink sprite and root beer but not mountain dew and questioned it and got the explanation that caffeine is bad. Also in my defense Mormons generally seem to go one way or the other depending on what appears to be how they were raised...

Larry King Show said:
Do you want to read more?
CALLER: I was wondering about some of the guidelines in dietary restrictions Mormons live by, and how strictly members follow it. Because I was reading, once, the word of wisdom. My impression was that its major point was that one should respect all life, including animals and, as such, only consume them when absolutely necessary to sustain life, and to then eat them sparingly. But I've noticed that Mormon -- this is rarely followed by Mormons, and I'm wondering if this has anything to do with, as reported by "TIME" magazine.

Larry King: OK, president?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Oh, I don't know. You've read a part of the word of wisdom. The word of wisdom covers many things. It covers the excessive use of meat, as I see it. It covers, in a very particular way, the use of tobacco and alcohol.

Larry King: By saying no?

Gordon B. Hinckley: By saying, by proscribing those things.

Larry King: No to caffeine?

Gordon B. Hinckley: No to caffeine, coffee and tea.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Yes. You are correct:
The Word of Wisdom, Caffeine, and Hypocrisy

I know a few mormons though who will drink sprite and root beer but not mountain dew and questioned it and got the explanation that caffeine is bad. Also in my defense Mormons generally seem to go one way or the other depending on what appears to be how they were raised...
Balance, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the OP. If you're really just in the mood to bash Mormonism in general, why don't you start a new thread? You know... Call it "Everything I Hate About Mormons," or something equally offensive. I'll play along with you for awhile.
 
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gnomon

Well-Known Member
It's apparent to me that this caffeine issue is causing all this problem with the gay marriage debate.

After all, i before e except after c. And caffeine. Caffeine won't follow the rules!
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Balance, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the OP. If you're really just in the mood to bash Mormonism in general, why don't you start a new thread? You know... Call it "Everything I Hate About Mormons," or something equally offensive. I'll play along with you for awhile.

LOL.... I was letting penguin know I was wrong... As in I am not always right and when I am wrong I want to say so.

I think my point of view was clearly portrayed: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2324138-post2641.html

As for everything I hate about mormons... lol... Why do mormons like to think of me like that? My post was in response to 9/10ths who called me out on my post and what? I was wrong. So i have to own up to that. It has nothing to do with my PoV. That said my PoV is out there, on topic and applicable to the post. Nothing I say is meant to be solely offensive and sorry if you take it that way. I try not to hate ever but if you think I am hating then fine... your opinion is to be respected.

Ultimately I will say your post seems more like an attack on me then my opinion. :shrug:
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
As for everything I hate about mormons... lol... Why do mormons like to think of me like that?
Uh... a gut feeling maybe?

My post was in response to 9/10ths who called me out on my post and what? I was wrong. So i have to own up to that. It has nothing to do with my PoV. That said my PoV is out there, on topic and applicable to the post. Nothing I say is meant to be solely offensive and sorry if you take it that way. I try not to hate ever but if you think I am hating then fine... your opinion is to be respected.
Okay, well if I read you wrong, I apologize.

Ultimately I will say your post seems more like an attack on me then my opinion. :shrug:
Really? It was actually just an invitation to take the subject of the Word of Wisdom to another thread. I'm really getting sick of this one.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Uh... a gut feeling maybe?

News Flash... I also do not believe in ghosts or UFOs and will walk up and down leprechaun and Will O of the Wisp arguments in the same fashion I do mormon beliefs that Gay people are evil and Joe smith had magical gold plates that were spirited away to never never land and then after the spiriting away he died in a jail cell shoot out.

The tooth fairy doesn't sound more ridiculous to me.

Okay, well if I read you wrong, I apologize.

Thats Great because I have a son that believes in the tooth fairy, a mom that believes in god and I used to be a theist. It does not address my point though.

Really? It was actually just an invitation to take the subject of the Word of Wisdom to another thread. I'm really getting sick of this one.

Cool and I will do so if i care to debate it. I said X and 9/10s was like no no balance I think X is really Y and I was like yep you are right... it is Y but here is why I thought X and you jumped in like What X and Y is totally off topic but you are ignoring the whole post where I was on topic and jumping in on a conversation that has nothing to do with it. Just sayin.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
They already have that right.

Not in the same way you and I do. You saying they already have that right is like me saying "You can't be a Mormon because we find it disgusting and wrong, but you have the same right as everyone else to be Catholic".

they are trying to redefine it based on their desire to behave contrary to the intended purpose of marriage :rolleyes:

No, they're trying to use the real definition, which is a legal contract between two people that bestows certain rights and benefits on the couple. The intended purpose of legal marriage is to give the couple rights like the right to see each other in the hospital, and be on each other's medical insurance, among many, many others. That's the intended purpose of legal marriage. If you want to talk about religious marriage, you should probably start a separate discussion about religious marriage. As it is, we're not concerned with that; only legal marriage contracts.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Not in the same way you and I do. You saying they already have that right is like me saying "You can't be a Mormon because we find it disgusting and wrong, but you have the same right as everyone else to be Catholic".



No, they're trying to use the real definition, which is a legal contract between two people that bestows certain rights and benefits on the couple. The intended purpose of legal marriage is to give the couple rights like the right to see each other in the hospital, and be on each other's medical insurance, among many, many others. That's the intended purpose of legal marriage. If you want to talk about religious marriage, you should probably start a separate discussion about religious marriage. As it is, we're not concerned with that; only legal marriage contracts.
Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Behavioral patters are not the same as religious movements. :rolleyes:
 
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