LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Autodidact]

Well, what I'm trying to get at in my inartful way--I'll pose it in Christian terms. For some Christians, Christ's central message was to love one another. That is what they preach and emphasize. For others, their God is a God of righteous anger as well as love, and the central message is salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. For many of the latter, particularly Calvinists, there is a strong emphasis on the importance of following God's commandments. Sometimes this goes way off the deep end, and it all becomes fire and brimstone, wages of sin, path to redemption, etc.

That's just to put it in terms of a difference among Christians. But the underlying theme I'm trying to get at is whether you really believe that love is a good thing, regardless, or whether you believe that God has regulated the form of love (patriarchal heterosexual marriage, dad, mom, kids, celibacy before marriage, no birth control, etc.) and that's what matters.

 

[McBell]

Actually majoritarianism is the basis of democracy and the basis of U.S. law.

Yes it is the basis for a 'true' democracy.
Unfortunately for you, the USA is a REPUBLIC.

Majority rules is not the basis for the law in the USA.
How do I know this?
Abortion is legal even thought he majority wish it were illegal.

Interesting. What is the basis for law in your view?

Republic so far as I can tell.

It is, but marriage isn't and hasn't been entirely defined as a legal contract. Two simple counter examples are common law marriages and religious ceremonies.

Common law marriage is a legal marriage in places that still accept it only when contested or needed for the legalities.

Religious ceremonies are not legal unless the paper work is filled out or they happen in places that recognize common law marriage.

So yes, marriage is a legal contract.

 

[Autodidact]

Unsurprisingly, the anti-gay Mormons in the thread all happened not to answer my question:

Do you know any actual gay families, that is, same-sex parents with kids? Idea? madhatter? Starfish? Anyone?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Do you believe people might not approve of same sex parents because they think their children will grow up gay?

Or people who think that a child growing up in a religious home will automatically be devout as an adult?

Anyone who has ever raised a child should know that is the furthest thing from the truth. How may of us are willing to admit that we turned out just like our parents?

 

[Sententia]

Please don't stereotype. Not all LDS are as you paint them to be.

Disney... my claim is not to say ALL LDS agree... I am simply stating the position LDS is being asked to support. I try not to generalize and I appreciate anyone calling me out when they think I am. I will rephrase...

The common LDS view that is being pushed by the leaders of the church and most religious views on homosexual relationships are immoral and disrespectful.

In the USA - extra rights are obtained by marriage. Denying those rights because of sexual preference is wrong.

If the sanctity of marriage is in question an equivalent union that bestows the same rights upon same sex couples as it does upon differing sex couples must be formed in answer to this inequality.

The fact that heterosexual couple MAY produce children after banging is irrelevant as some do not or will not and still enjoy said rights.

In short these people are prejudiced, biased and thrusting and forcing their religous beliefs on others and arguing that they are correct. They are wrong.

Equity arguments require similar situations. Heterosexual and homosexual marriages are not similarly situated: one can produce people the other cannot.

So shall we strip the special priviledges of those married heterosexual couples not capable of reproducing? Are heteros who can produce some how better then those that can't?

Do you wish to encourage breeding and discourage adoption?

Your argument is insulting and belittling. And I am trying real hard to take the high road and walk the straight and narrow.

 

[Starfish]

Unsurprisingly, the anti-gay Mormons in the thread all happened not to answer my question:

Do you know any actual gay families, that is, same-sex parents with kids? Idea? madhatter? Starfish? Anyone?

That's not true. I have answered your question. I know one gay couple personally. Very nice people whom I have no doubt would be great parents. They are childless.

You never answered my question on page 73, post 727, concerning long-term affects on children who have a third parent who was never meant to be involved in the child's life.

 

[McBell]

who was never meant to be involved in the child's life.

How do you determine that?
"Meant" by whom?

 

[Starfish]

How do you determine that?
"Meant" by whom?

A "sperm donor". He never intended to be involved. The remaining two parents never meant for him to be involved, or with minimal and/or parttime involvement.

 

[McBell]

A "sperm donor". He never intended to be involved. The remaining two parents never meant for him to be involved, or with minimal and/or parttime involvement.

What is your definition of parent?

 

[Starfish]

What is your definition of parent?

I know where you're going.

It's very common today for adults to seek out their bio-parent. Even if that sperm came from a bank. It's a natural yearning to find one's roots.

Children who have a third "parent" out there will sometimes feel some degree of abandonment. They will question WHO, WHERE, and WHY.

What are the long-term studies of that? Especially if the whole thing (parent/child-relationship/nonrelationship) was set up on purpose.

 

[Storm]

I know where you're going.

It's very common today for adults to seek out their bio-parent. Even if that sperm came from a bank. It's a natural yearning to find one's roots.

Children who have a third "parent" out there will sometimes feel some degree of abandonment. They will question WHO, WHERE, and WHY.

What are the long-term studies of that? Especially if the whole thing (parent/child-relationship/nonrelationship) was set up on purpose.

AFAIK, none exist.

How does all this relate to the question of same sex marriage, again?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How does all this relate to the question of same sex marriage, again?

It goes back on the first page of the thread.

I asked this:

Also (and going back to the LDS Church specifically), the 11th Article of Faith is as follows:

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Can marriage ever be considered an aspect of worship of God? If so, is the statement to the California churches in conflict with the 11th Article of Faith?

And Polaris responded with this:

No because there is an implied "as long as it isn't harmful to others or to society" in our beliefs. Obviously we don't believe that a religion should be able to do what they want without limits.

Most of the stuff since then has been about the supposed harm associated with same-sex marriage.

Even when these claims are taken at face value, I'm still not sure why the LDS Church has been so vocal about prohibition of same-sex marriage, when I've heard nothing from them in the press lately about prohibition of alcohol. Given the stated views of the Church on both topics, their response seems disproportionate to me.

 

[Storm]

It goes back on the first page of the thread.

I asked this:


And Polaris responded with this:



Most of the stuff since then has been about the supposed harm associated with same-sex marriage.

Thanks.

Even when these claims are taken at face value, I'm still not sure why the LDS Church has been so vocal about prohibition of same-sex marriage, when I've heard nothing from them in the press lately about prohibition of alcohol. Given the stated views of the Church on both topics, their response seems disproportionate to me.

I have to agree.

 

[Autodidact]

That's not true. I have answered your question. I know one gay couple personally. Very nice people whom I have no doubt would be great parents. They are childless.

You never answered my question on page 73, post 727, concerning long-term affects on children who have a third parent who was never meant to be involved in the child's life.

So without knowing a single child raised by two same-sex parents, you "know" that different sex parents are better? Despite all the scientific research that says just the opposite?

 

[Autodidact]

What I haven't seen you respond to is the matter of the third parent. Your children may be "fine". But do they represent ALL children fathered by a "friend", sperm bank, or former partner? Where is the long-term research on how that affects children?

I don't know, do you?

 

[Autodidact]

Mormons: If same sex couples are having kids, don't you think it's better for them to be married than not?

 

[Starfish]

AFAIK, none exist.

How does all this relate to the question of same sex marriage, again?

Same-sex marriage spills into same-sex parenting. The children of such are raised w/o an in-home father, or an in-home mother. And there is always a third "parent" out there, involved or not. This CAN create confusion for the child and therefore creates possible risks for the child.

 

[Starfish]

I don't know, do you?

No. If science and studies are so important , why would one purposely put a child into this situation without knowing the research?

 

[Storm]

Same-sex marriage spills into same-sex parenting. The children of such are raised w/o an in-home father, or an in-home mother. And there is always a third "parent" out there, involved or not. This CAN create confusion for the child and therefore creates possible risks for the child.

OK. That brings us back to Autodidact's question:

Mormons: If same sex couples are having kids, don't you think it's better for them to be married than not?

The obvious fact is that queers parent children, with or without state support, and that's not going to change. So, it seems to me that the logical conclusion of your basic position that we should provide children with all possible advantages and protections would be support for same sex marriage.

 

[McBell]

Same-sex marriage spills into same-sex parenting. The children of such are raised w/o an in-home father, or an in-home mother. And there is always a third "parent" out there, involved or not. This CAN create confusion for the child and therefore creates possible risks for the child.

and how is it any different than adoption?